Norton AntiVirus Subsciption Renewal
Discussion
Sorry greg don't agree with this. I write software and charge an amount suitable to make a profit for my time. I charge a one off fee and give minor upgardes free of charge. However major upgrades I charge for as its my time.
Anti-virus software is not a product you simply buy its a product you subscribe to. No AV software company has made this a secret. Whilst your neighbour may not be happy with paying £30 per year I bet he's quite happy to pay for newspapers, his internet connection subscrption, cable tv etc. and they are a lot more than 8.2p per day. I also bet he was quite happy to accept the upgrades all last year.
I don't know what you do for a living Greg but would you do it for F
all? People at Norton and other AV companies spend all day writing code to stop viruses infecting your machine.
I'm not saying I'm a goody goody and that all software pirecy is wrong. For example I do not agree that windows should be its price for stand alone version. esp as a family cannot buy a reduced multi-user version whereas companies can. In this example I believe the family should have to buy one copy and can use it on all machines in that household (with an upper limit obviously), but thats just my opinion.
Other example of where pirecy is acceptable IMHO is where it is impossible to get the software. Or where someone may copy domething for evaluation and then chooses to buy it or uninstal it. (although some companies give out free evaluation copies).
However I DO believe that if a product is worth it, it should be bought fair and square. If your neighbour is happy with Norton then he should pay the subscrption, if not look at other AV software and pay them instead. My AV software has a much lower subscrption rate but IMHO is well worth it for the security.
>> Edited by smeagol on Wednesday 18th June 11:51
>> Edited by smeagol on Wednesday 18th June 11:55
Anti-virus software is not a product you simply buy its a product you subscribe to. No AV software company has made this a secret. Whilst your neighbour may not be happy with paying £30 per year I bet he's quite happy to pay for newspapers, his internet connection subscrption, cable tv etc. and they are a lot more than 8.2p per day. I also bet he was quite happy to accept the upgrades all last year.
I don't know what you do for a living Greg but would you do it for F
all? People at Norton and other AV companies spend all day writing code to stop viruses infecting your machine. I'm not saying I'm a goody goody and that all software pirecy is wrong. For example I do not agree that windows should be its price for stand alone version. esp as a family cannot buy a reduced multi-user version whereas companies can. In this example I believe the family should have to buy one copy and can use it on all machines in that household (with an upper limit obviously), but thats just my opinion.
Other example of where pirecy is acceptable IMHO is where it is impossible to get the software. Or where someone may copy domething for evaluation and then chooses to buy it or uninstal it. (although some companies give out free evaluation copies).
However I DO believe that if a product is worth it, it should be bought fair and square. If your neighbour is happy with Norton then he should pay the subscrption, if not look at other AV software and pay them instead. My AV software has a much lower subscrption rate but IMHO is well worth it for the security.
>> Edited by smeagol on Wednesday 18th June 11:51
>> Edited by smeagol on Wednesday 18th June 11:55
Interesting that MS are to incorporate anti-virus into Windows (yet another law suit in the making I suspect). Frankly, I feel that its about time, many of the virus' exploit weakness of the OS, so why should the punter be having to pay a subscrption to fight a rear-guard action against MS incompetence?
MS should be picking up the tab for antivirus subscrptions IMHO.
Comparison to subscrptions to services which add value don't really stack up, this is more akin to extortion. Pay up or your software gets it.
[edited to add] As a fellow developer, I hasten to add I otherwise agree entirely Smeagol!
>> Edited by victormeldrew on Wednesday 18th June 11:56
MS should be picking up the tab for antivirus subscrptions IMHO.
Comparison to subscrptions to services which add value don't really stack up, this is more akin to extortion. Pay up or your software gets it.
[edited to add] As a fellow developer, I hasten to add I otherwise agree entirely Smeagol!
>> Edited by victormeldrew on Wednesday 18th June 11:56
Some good points smeagol, and I totally respect your opinion.
However, it would appear I'm not the only person who's utterly pissed off with this rubbish. The software might as well uninstall itself after a year, because thats how useful it is once your grace period is up.
And I can think of at least one AV product that offers free updates for life unlike Symantec, who of late have rather distanced themselves from their customers in this respect (and believe me, I have first time experience of this both as a home user - of legitimate software - and as a corporate reseller), so it won't get any better in the future. And if Symantec continues this (super)highway robbery, expect more loyal customers to dump them.
They even sold me a copy of AV2001, with assurances it would work on XP. So I parted with my money. Did it work? Did it ****. So like a tit, I went out and bought 2002, which does.
However, it would appear I'm not the only person who's utterly pissed off with this rubbish. The software might as well uninstall itself after a year, because thats how
useful it is once your grace period is up. And I can think of at least one AV product that offers free updates for life unlike Symantec, who of late have rather distanced themselves from their customers in this respect (and believe me, I have first time experience of this both as a home user - of legitimate software - and as a corporate reseller), so it won't get any better in the future. And if Symantec continues this (super)highway robbery, expect more loyal customers to dump them.
They even sold me a copy of AV2001, with assurances it would work on XP. So I parted with my money. Did it work? Did it ****. So like a tit, I went out and bought 2002, which does.
Victor:
cr@p, it is possible to M$ to make your computer completely imune to viruses you just wouldn't be able to do anything with it. Whilst there are lots of viruses that do exploite a weakness in the OS M$ do provide upgrades for lots of these on their webpage. I can't believe I'm defending M$ here
However to say that its M$ responsibility to ensure you don't catch a virus is cr@p. What about antiCmos and other bios viruses does that mean the PC manufaturer is reposnisble? What about Mac viruses? Boot sector viruses, trojoan horses etc. etc.
Greg:
Whilst there are AV compnies with a one-off fee they are usually more pricey and thats their option. You should have recomended them not stolen form Symentic. (I'm not a fan of their product BTW)
AV software that is Subscrption based because you recieve upgrades all the time. Its not a normal piece of software like I write, where upgrades are optional. The £30 per year covers the cost of with the profit for them to work on your behalf thats what you're paying for. Whilst I can see where you are coming from with the idea that your software stops functioning but if you stop paying your electricity bill they cut you off. If you want to stop protecting your computer then don't pay the subscrption.
Plotless:
I know there is an education discount (indeed I get it as a teacher
) BUT what about a family of two adults laptop and computer? Doesn't seem fair to me that they cannot buy a 2 user pack at discount.
>> Edited by smeagol on Wednesday 18th June 12:10
cr@p, it is possible to M$ to make your computer completely imune to viruses you just wouldn't be able to do anything with it. Whilst there are lots of viruses that do exploite a weakness in the OS M$ do provide upgrades for lots of these on their webpage. I can't believe I'm defending M$ here
However to say that its M$ responsibility to ensure you don't catch a virus is cr@p. What about antiCmos and other bios viruses does that mean the PC manufaturer is reposnisble? What about Mac viruses? Boot sector viruses, trojoan horses etc. etc.
Greg:
Whilst there are AV compnies with a one-off fee they are usually more pricey and thats their option. You should have recomended them not stolen form Symentic. (I'm not a fan of their product BTW)
AV software that is Subscrption based because you recieve upgrades all the time. Its not a normal piece of software like I write, where upgrades are optional. The £30 per year covers the cost of with the profit for them to work on your behalf thats what you're paying for. Whilst I can see where you are coming from with the idea that your software stops functioning but if you stop paying your electricity bill they cut you off. If you want to stop protecting your computer then don't pay the subscrption.
Plotless:
I know there is an education discount (indeed I get it as a teacher
) BUT what about a family of two adults laptop and computer? Doesn't seem fair to me that they cannot buy a 2 user pack at discount. >> Edited by smeagol on Wednesday 18th June 12:10
smeagol said:
Sorry greg don't agree with this. I write software and charge an amount suitable to make a profit for my time. I charge a one off fee and give minor upgardes free of charge. However major upgrades I charge for as its my time.
The thing I object to about the NAV yearly thing is that I've got several machines .... this means that if I want ALL my home machines to be protected, I'd have to buy X many yearly extensions. Dont mind paying for one (in fact, I did last December) but paying for the same thing numerous times ..... ?
Nevpugh see my point about M$ windows quite agree. However if you have several machines believe you can buy a multi-user licence for NAV, may be wrong here as I don't use it as I don't like it. Certainly the AV software I have has a multiuser licence which does have a reduced renewal rate than x times individual.
smeagol
I see your point, but I did say "many" not "all" didn't I?
From a cost of ownership perspective it looks a bit different though. How many PC buyers were told that they'd be paying a subscrption [to whoever] for life if they bought an Windows PC? MS do their level best to make sure all PC's sold have a Windows licence (even if Windows isn't installed sometimes) so there should be at least an moral imperative for them to ensure it continues to work.
Yes, they provide patches, but often they are bolting the door after the horse has long gone, and the patching process is not without its problems - hence the current changes by MS.
My point was it feels like a con to the average punter. We get away with too much "cr@p" in the IT industry - it doesn't make it right just because we have always done it.
I still don't think the punter should be having to pay for AV software and/or upgrades. If its not MS that should fund it then maybe the ISPs? Discuss!
I see your point, but I did say "many" not "all" didn't I?
From a cost of ownership perspective it looks a bit different though. How many PC buyers were told that they'd be paying a subscrption [to whoever] for life if they bought an Windows PC? MS do their level best to make sure all PC's sold have a Windows licence (even if Windows isn't installed sometimes) so there should be at least an moral imperative for them to ensure it continues to work.
Yes, they provide patches, but often they are bolting the door after the horse has long gone, and the patching process is not without its problems - hence the current changes by MS.
My point was it feels like a con to the average punter. We get away with too much "cr@p" in the IT industry - it doesn't make it right just because we have always done it.
I still don't think the punter should be having to pay for AV software and/or upgrades. If its not MS that should fund it then maybe the ISPs? Discuss!
My problem with it is that I wouldn't mind if they made it obvious from the start ..... I bought Norton Systemworks thinking I was buying something that would "last forever", like older versions of NAV, only to find it would run out a year later AFTER I'd installed it (*)
I dont mind the repeat fee idea, as long as it's made clear from the start AND it's a fixed charge all along .... i.e. £9 (or whatever) every year, from year one, not charging for a full blown, full price product off the shelf of £30 or £40, THEN adding the yearly charge on top of that.
Thing is, I work in software development myself, and I personally think that software is just too damn expensive. We rip people off sometimes (IMO), especially as things are changing all the time, and new releases are coming out every 5 minutes (forcing people to buy again and again and again)
Nev
(* okay, so it probably said it in some small print somewhere or other on the box, but a) it wasn't obvious and b) who reads ALL the small print ? and c) they'd never done that trick before, so why would I (or anyone else) assume that this was their new policy)
>> Edited by nevpugh308 on Wednesday 18th June 13:08
I dont mind the repeat fee idea, as long as it's made clear from the start AND it's a fixed charge all along .... i.e. £9 (or whatever) every year, from year one, not charging for a full blown, full price product off the shelf of £30 or £40, THEN adding the yearly charge on top of that.
Thing is, I work in software development myself, and I personally think that software is just too damn expensive. We rip people off sometimes (IMO), especially as things are changing all the time, and new releases are coming out every 5 minutes (forcing people to buy again and again and again)
Nev
(* okay, so it probably said it in some small print somewhere or other on the box, but a) it wasn't obvious and b) who reads ALL the small print ? and c) they'd never done that trick before, so why would I (or anyone else) assume that this was their new policy)
>> Edited by nevpugh308 on Wednesday 18th June 13:08
GregE240 said:
And I can think of at least one AV product that offers free updates for life unlike Symantec
Not sure who/what you're referring to but the last time I had a look round AV products (to justify our Sophos subscrption at work) the ones that claimed that weren't all they seemed. You buy AcmeAV 2002, a year later AcmeAV2003 comes out. Your free updates for 2002 keep coming. A few months later, before the 2004 edition they EOL your 2002 version and as it's not supported, sorry no updates. You'll have to buy the 2003 version sir, which is supported.
I use AVG (www.grisoft.com) at home, which is free for one non-commercial user. It's basic and a littly clunky but does the job. Either NAV is worth £30 a year to you or it isn't - go elsewhere or cancel if you don't want it.
The Master/Slave solution.
You could always install a 2nd Hard Disk.
When the AV software subscrption on the 1st HD runs out install your OS & AV on empty hard disk and copy all your files and software across (or just re-install the main ones - Office etc..), re-format old HD ready for next swap in 12 months time.
You could always install a 2nd Hard Disk.
When the AV software subscrption on the 1st HD runs out install your OS & AV on empty hard disk and copy all your files and software across (or just re-install the main ones - Office etc..), re-format old HD ready for next swap in 12 months time.
I was actually thinking of AVG when I wrote that.
I couldn't care less if the product went EOL to be honest with you. What I do care about is the product ceasing to work after one year of hassle free use, frocing me to add to Symantecs bottom line through either purchase of new software or renewing a sub. Sorry, but to me thats just not fair. 2002 works just as well on XP as 2003, as will 2004 no doubt.
And as for multiple Symantec products on the same box? Don't get me started on that one.
Good job other companies don't employ these same tactics or the software business would be in even more of an overpriced mess than it already is. How many have upgraded to Office XP for the sheer hell of it being current product?
Not too many, I'd wager.
I couldn't care less if the product went EOL to be honest with you. What I do care about is the product ceasing to work after one year of hassle free use, frocing me to add to Symantecs bottom line through either purchase of new software or renewing a sub. Sorry, but to me thats just not fair. 2002 works just as well on XP as 2003, as will 2004 no doubt.
And as for multiple Symantec products on the same box? Don't get me started on that one.
Good job other companies don't employ these same tactics or the software business would be in even more of an overpriced mess than it already is. How many have upgraded to Office XP for the sheer hell of it being current product?
Not too many, I'd wager.
Interesting discussion certainly. My licencing rules are IMHO reasonable (I write educatinal software) Schools that buy my network versions are allowed to install it either via a server or on any individual machines that are connected with teaching IT in that school. So includes teachers home machines. My stand alone version (my latest product) I have made run only from CD and has no instalation at all and the licence is that they can use it on any one machine at any one time.
I also do discounts for multiple copies (10+) if schools wish to purchase stand alone versions to sell to students.
There are no subscrption charges and does not expire. Network versions being a lot more exopensive get minor upgrades free of charge whilst stand alones will just have newer versions. The old product however will still work and be useful.
I think that is fair and certainly I have had no complaints and lots of positive feedback about this kind of licencing. The only encounter i had was a school stating they wanted to put my software on their website which can be accessed by students at home and they wondered why I said no
anyway back on topic.
Victor:
Could I point out that AV software is not a requirement for PC use, its optional. My parents and several of my private clients have no virus protection. Why? because quite simply they don't use floppies (other than their own) and I have taught them how to delete emails without opening. (Take preview off outlook, double click to read). The chances of them catching a virus are mninimal and the consequences are low. My parents actually caught a virus once (as they opened it from a friend who hadn't had the same advice) which I quickly removed with a magic bullet, from both my parents and their friends machine.
Like all software AV protection is optional, upgrades for M$ windows are your choice. Although recommended, you do not have to do it if you are happy with how your system is working.
I do not like NAV partly for the reasons stated above (ie they don't make it blindingly obvious it is a subscrption, unlike other companies that do) But as has been said before "if you don't like it, don't buy it."
>> Edited by smeagol on Wednesday 18th June 14:36
>> Edited by smeagol on Wednesday 18th June 14:39
I also do discounts for multiple copies (10+) if schools wish to purchase stand alone versions to sell to students.
There are no subscrption charges and does not expire. Network versions being a lot more exopensive get minor upgrades free of charge whilst stand alones will just have newer versions. The old product however will still work and be useful.
I think that is fair and certainly I have had no complaints and lots of positive feedback about this kind of licencing. The only encounter i had was a school stating they wanted to put my software on their website which can be accessed by students at home and they wondered why I said no
anyway back on topic.
Victor:
From a cost of ownership perspective it looks a bit different though. How many PC buyers were told that they'd be paying a subscrption [to whoever] for life if they bought an Windows PC? MS do their level best to make sure all PC's sold have a Windows licence (even if Windows isn't installed sometimes) so there should be at least an moral imperative for them to ensure it continues to work.
Could I point out that AV software is not a requirement for PC use, its optional. My parents and several of my private clients have no virus protection. Why? because quite simply they don't use floppies (other than their own) and I have taught them how to delete emails without opening. (Take preview off outlook, double click to read). The chances of them catching a virus are mninimal and the consequences are low. My parents actually caught a virus once (as they opened it from a friend who hadn't had the same advice) which I quickly removed with a magic bullet, from both my parents and their friends machine.
Like all software AV protection is optional, upgrades for M$ windows are your choice. Although recommended, you do not have to do it if you are happy with how your system is working.
I do not like NAV partly for the reasons stated above (ie they don't make it blindingly obvious it is a subscrption, unlike other companies that do) But as has been said before "if you don't like it, don't buy it."
>> Edited by smeagol on Wednesday 18th June 14:36
>> Edited by smeagol on Wednesday 18th June 14:39
smeagol said:
I do not like NAV partly for the reasons stated above (ie they don't make it blindingly obvious it is a subscrption, unlike other companies that do) But as has been said before "if you don't like it, don't buy it."
Paul, I totally agree with your viewpoint, although in my opinion your relatives not running AV software on their machines is a little misled. I guess you could argue that a firewall is a better bet, but we'll save that one for another thread, eh?!
With regard to NAV, I'm probably a brainwashed follower in as much as I bought 2000,01 and 02 when I went to XP. The major problem is probably the reseller (in my neighbours case PC World) not telling him that he was effectively buying a product that would only function for a year. Given they hoodwinked him on what sort of processor power he required for what he wanted (and thus selling a ridiculously over capable P4 with an equallly daft 1Gb RAM), its not surprising really. Money grabbing munkehs.
davidy said:
My Norton AV renewal was only £10.50 direct online with Norton, wheres the £30 come from??
Makes you mate (GregE240) even more of a cheapskate, as thats only 2.8p a day
davidy
Mate, I creak when I
walk, thats how tight I am. Heck, I'm careful, alright? And I like a challenge. A fool and his money....Gassing Station | Computers, Gadgets & Stuff | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff