WiFi - hide SSID or no?

[8bit]

At one time the general advice was that it was safer to hide your WiFi SSID, presumably this was back in the relatively early days when WiFI encryption and security were fairly easily compromised. I've always kept the SSID for my home network hidden for that reason. Is that still good practice or are we now better off leaving them visible?

Reason for asking - I'm currently fighting with the stty app for one of our thermostats and the vendor is suggesting the problem is because our SSID is hidden. I'm calling bullst/lousy application coding as I have no such issues with other devices but it got me thinking if I should still be hiding the network or not.

[boxst]

If anyone is determined enough to get into your network then they will just use a wifi scanner. Even previously the likes of Reaver just scanned networks and didn't care whether it was hidden or not.

If it causing you problems, I would switch it off.

[zedx19]

If you use TADO, it has a device that plugs into the router for all the devices to connect to, rather than connecting direct to the WIFI network. Thought I'd mention in case you wanted to keep hidden and find an alternative product to use.

[CharlesElliott]

Have never hidden SSIDs and don't now, either.

[8bit]

Thanks both.

It's not a TADO 'stat, it's a Warmup one. We have some of their earlier models elsewhere in the house, no Wifi on those so you do it all on the device and they're great. Somehow ended up with this fancy new one when we had the garden room built recently and the device seems to be missing a lot of functionality so I presume it's hidden in this lousy app.

The only other thing that suggested hidden SSID was a problem was the Hypervolt EV charger app, although that does seem to be OK with the SSID. Or at least, that's the least of the problems with that app now...

Honestly, whenever I go to buy something and I read "... and you control it all with our handy app!" my heart just sinks a bit. Don't get me started on the Polestar app

[Mr E]

Hiding a SSID provides the illusion of security without making a blind bit of difference to a halfway informed attacker.

[donkmeister]

1) Have you tried removing the stat and sticking it near your AP to see if that improves things? I have a Schneider/Drayton unit that has absolutely ste WiFi performance (suspect antenna is a PCB track) and found that moving a mesh AP to the room above resolved the problem.

2) Does your SSID have any special characters that could be revealing the firmware team for Warmup are rubbish?

3) Have you segregated your 2.4 and 5GHz SSIDs? It's surprising the issues that having the same SSID for both bands can cause, and it's surprising how many APs come with these set to the same by default.

[8bit]

Mr E said:

Hiding a SSID provides the illusion of security without making a blind bit of difference to a halfway informed attacker.

I fully appreciate that, I think back in the early days the idea of hidden SSIDs was to reduce the likelihood of script kiddies "having a go" when Wifi security was pretty flimsy. Times and technology change obviously, hence the question.

donkmeister said:

1) Have you tried removing the stat and sticking it near your AP to see if that improves things? I have a Schneider/Drayton unit that has absolutely ste WiFi performance (suspect antenna is a PCB track) and found that moving a mesh AP to the room above resolved the problem.

2) Does your SSID have any special characters that could be revealing the firmware team for Warmup are rubbish?

3) Have you segregated your 2.4 and 5GHz SSIDs? It's surprising the issues that having the same SSID for both bands can cause, and it's surprising how many APs come with these set to the same by default.

1) The thermostat is about 2.4 meters away from the AP.

2) No - no special characters in the SSID or key. According to the thermostat, it's on the network fine (has an IP, says it is cloud connected etc) but the app on my phone (on the same network) just cannot locate it.

3) No, do you mean having separate SSIDs for each band? I'd need to check my mesh system can support that. I presume devices that can't use 5GHz just won't see an SSID only using 5GHz?

[bigpriest]

SSID is how I know the neighbours are a good laugh or to be avoided.

[ARHarh]

On my phone hidden ssid's show as as "hidden-ssid"

Hiding in plain sight

[captain_cynic]

boxst said:

If anyone is determined enough to get into your network then they will just use a wifi scanner. Even previously the likes of Reaver just scanned networks and didn't care whether it was hidden or not.

If it causing you problems, I would switch it off.

Yep. The WiFi scanner app on my phone can find them and that's just for testing signal strength and channels.

It does sound like a crappy thermostat if it can't connect to a hidden network though. Someone is not following the IEEE specs.

[8bit]

captain_cynic said:

boxst said:

If anyone is determined enough to get into your network then they will just use a wifi scanner. Even previously the likes of Reaver just scanned networks and didn't care whether it was hidden or not.

If it causing you problems, I would switch it off.

Yep. The WiFi scanner app on my phone can find them and that's just for testing signal strength and channels.

It does sound like a crappy thermostat if it can't connect to a hidden network though. Someone is not following the IEEE specs.

So the thermostat IS connected - it shows the SSID, IP address and signal strength on the display on the unit itself, it's the app that can't find it. The tech support guy said it may be because the SSID is hidden. Seems unlikely to me given that the phone and thermostat are connected to the same network but it got me thinking, as I said in the OP.

I think it's just another lousy app but we'll see.

[captain_cynic]

8bit said:

So the thermostat IS connected - it shows the SSID, IP address and signal strength on the display on the unit itself, it's the app that can't find it. The tech support guy said it may be because the SSID is hidden. Seems unlikely to me given that the phone and thermostat are connected to the same network but it got me thinking, as I said in the OP.

I think it's just another lousy app but we'll see.

If the thermostat has an IP address it's connected to the network. Doubly so if it pings.

Sounds like the company is fobbing you off.

Still, they've found an excuse and probably won't budge until you unhide it and still have the same issue.

[boxst]

Have you asked a friend to come and see you who has the 'opposite' phone (Android to your iPhone or whatever) and install the app?

If it works it doesn't really help you, but you can go and complain with a bit more confidence that it is the application.

[Mr E]

8bit said:

So the thermostat IS connected - it shows the SSID, IP address and signal strength on the display on the unit itself, it's the app that can't find it. The tech support guy said it may be because the SSID is hidden.

I can think of no reason why that would make any difference at the application layer.

A double NAT or other ip broadcast/discovery issue however…

[8bit]

boxst said:

Have you asked a friend to come and see you who has the 'opposite' phone (Android to your iPhone or whatever) and install the app?

If it works it doesn't really help you, but you can go and complain with a bit more confidence that it is the application.

Funnily enough I had the same thought earlier - my wife has an iPhone (I'm on Android) so I installed the app on her phone and - what do you know - it worked fine. I used the same account I have on my own phone so now both can see and control the thermostat.

I expect the vendor will probably now try and close the case as resolved, it shouldn't really take that to get it working but I'll feed it back to them and see what they say. The app does give a little more functionality than the device itself but it's still not as comprehensive as the older, standalone models.

[boxst]

8bit said:

Funnily enough I had the same thought earlier - my wife has an iPhone (I'm on Android) so I installed the app on her phone and - what do you know - it worked fine. I used the same account I have on my own phone so now both can see and control the thermostat.

I expect the vendor will probably now try and close the case as resolved, it shouldn't really take that to get it working but I'll feed it back to them and see what they say. The app does give a little more functionality than the device itself but it's still not as comprehensive as the older, standalone models.

I have to say that is crazy. The iPhone app must have some code to get the thermostat synced that is missing in the Android version. Do report it as even if they wont do anything for you it will go to their helpdesk system and see if they'll log it as a bug and some developers do actually look there.

[8bit]

boxst said:

8bit said:

Funnily enough I had the same thought earlier - my wife has an iPhone (I'm on Android) so I installed the app on her phone and - what do you know - it worked fine. I used the same account I have on my own phone so now both can see and control the thermostat.

I expect the vendor will probably now try and close the case as resolved, it shouldn't really take that to get it working but I'll feed it back to them and see what they say. The app does give a little more functionality than the device itself but it's still not as comprehensive as the older, standalone models.

I have to say that is crazy. The iPhone app must have some code to get the thermostat synced that is missing in the Android version. Do report it as even if they wont do anything for you it will go to their helpdesk system and see if they'll log it as a bug and some developers do actually look there.

It'll be a bad port from iOS to Android. Both go through the same process until the point where you register the thermostat on the wifi network (via the app), which involves connecting to the temporary hotspot Wifi on the thermostat. On iOS the phone then reverts to the main Wifi network and finds the thermostat there. On Android, it just doesn't find the thermostat, no idea why not. I'll report it shortly.

Back to the original question, doesn't sound like there's much value in hiding SSIDs but equally doesn't sound like any real drawback either, at least nothing in my network that can be attributed to that. Next time I change Wifi hardware I won't bother. Thanks all for the input.

[Bikerjon]

Hiding SSID's and only allowing certain MAC addresses etc were all novelty security concepts from a couple of decades ago. No one uses this now and I can certainly see why certain apps may not like it. It's just overkill for a home network. If a device/gadget just needs internet access then a better way might be to put it on an isolated "guest" or "internet of things" Wi-Fi network. Keeps it separate from your main Wi-Fi.