The Fundamental Problem with Mesh Wi-Fi...
Discussion
Been pondering this one for a couple of years, tried various systems... spent a load of cash... i think it is basically a fundamental achilles heel of mesh wi-fi that makes it a bit broken as a concept. Some of you may have no issues, and that's fine... but for many people who do have issues, mesh is not the answer. You can cable backhaul to your heart's content. You can do a wonderous job of node placement, and spend money on a number of the b
d things. You can get the best rated products known to man. However... node switching / steering basically does not work.
The software in the mesh is not inherently compatible with the software in the device (generally phones, but also laptops could apply here), and there is no reason that a proprietary message coming from the mesh telling a device to switch nodes will be accepted and acted upon. There is no standard way for a device to spot that it needs to switch nodes either. Surely if the device can tell there is a stronger signal from a node than the one it is currently connected to, it should switch... but even the latest iPhones don't do it.
So what is the point of mesh? If your device has to entirely lose all signal from one node in order to start looking for another one, how is that going to work in any real setting? You'd need to engineer blackspots around the building in order to force node switching, and this entirely defeats the point of mesh being seamless.
I keep hearing that 'the problem' will be fixed in upcoming software releases, or upcoming wireless standards... except it is not just one problem, and it is not for one manufacturer to fix as they don't control it all. With no standards for this stuff, how will it ever work properly?
d things. You can get the best rated products known to man. However... node switching / steering basically does not work. The software in the mesh is not inherently compatible with the software in the device (generally phones, but also laptops could apply here), and there is no reason that a proprietary message coming from the mesh telling a device to switch nodes will be accepted and acted upon. There is no standard way for a device to spot that it needs to switch nodes either. Surely if the device can tell there is a stronger signal from a node than the one it is currently connected to, it should switch... but even the latest iPhones don't do it.
So what is the point of mesh? If your device has to entirely lose all signal from one node in order to start looking for another one, how is that going to work in any real setting? You'd need to engineer blackspots around the building in order to force node switching, and this entirely defeats the point of mesh being seamless.
I keep hearing that 'the problem' will be fixed in upcoming software releases, or upcoming wireless standards... except it is not just one problem, and it is not for one manufacturer to fix as they don't control it all. With no standards for this stuff, how will it ever work properly?
Yes.
Mesh does work in my current set-up, but sometimes it doesn't. The devices (iPhone/laptop) hold on to that weak signal for dear life. When it drops it'll then connect to the new strongest meshed wi-fi point. As you say as far as I can see there is no standard protocol for saying "hey, you are nearly out of range, go connect to ... ".
Mesh does work in my current set-up, but sometimes it doesn't. The devices (iPhone/laptop) hold on to that weak signal for dear life. When it drops it'll then connect to the new strongest meshed wi-fi point. As you say as far as I can see there is no standard protocol for saying "hey, you are nearly out of range, go connect to ... ".
boxst said:
Yes.
Mesh does work in my current set-up, but sometimes it doesn't. The devices (iPhone/laptop) hold on to that weak signal for dear life. When it drops it'll then connect to the new strongest meshed wi-fi point. As you say as far as I can see there is no standard protocol for saying "hey, you are nearly out of range, go connect to ... ".
this is the issue i have. Also if you do a ripple reboot of all the nodes then who knows what APs the devices will end up connected to, and as most devices don't move they then stay connected to whatever node went online first.Mesh does work in my current set-up, but sometimes it doesn't. The devices (iPhone/laptop) hold on to that weak signal for dear life. When it drops it'll then connect to the new strongest meshed wi-fi point. As you say as far as I can see there is no standard protocol for saying "hey, you are nearly out of range, go connect to ... ".
xeny said:
AIUI 802.11v is a standard which seeks to address this. I think the most recent iPhones support it, no idea about which mesh systems.
v interesting... i guess the lack of this was exactly what i was moaning about. Hopefully it resolves. I've lost count of the number of times I have heard "this new thing should fix it" though. Feels like wireless is a bit in the same category of printers! i.e. never work properly and never will.I was living in a house in 2017 and WiFi was a nightmare to get upstairs. Tried a few types of extenders and powerline extenders but never got a reliable system. A mesh system strategically placed sorted it.
The same mesh system went with me to a newish 75sq.m apartment in late 2018 and performed faultlessly there, although it was probably a little overkill.
Moved to a 85sq.m apartment 18 months ago and had wifi problems from the get go.
In Aug/Sep the 70s building entrance door, lighting, and intercom system were ripped out and updated to modern gear. We're ground floor, just by the entrance door. The wifi problems disappeared after the works, so it was obviously radio interference from either the old intercom system, or the old electrical circuit and wiring fittings.
I now just run the master node and have powered off the 2 slaves as the signal is now plenty strong with no interference.
So sometimes the possibility of outside interference will be beyond your control.
Agree wholeheartedly on the device steering comments, hopefully that will improve with newer protocols.
The same mesh system went with me to a newish 75sq.m apartment in late 2018 and performed faultlessly there, although it was probably a little overkill.
Moved to a 85sq.m apartment 18 months ago and had wifi problems from the get go.
In Aug/Sep the 70s building entrance door, lighting, and intercom system were ripped out and updated to modern gear. We're ground floor, just by the entrance door. The wifi problems disappeared after the works, so it was obviously radio interference from either the old intercom system, or the old electrical circuit and wiring fittings.
I now just run the master node and have powered off the 2 slaves as the signal is now plenty strong with no interference.
So sometimes the possibility of outside interference will be beyond your control.
Agree wholeheartedly on the device steering comments, hopefully that will improve with newer protocols.
What you are talking about is not a mesh wifi issue it’s a wifi roaming issue.
In general the wifi client controls the roaming rather than the wifi access point sure there are some mechanisms to encourage clients to disconnect, minimum service strength being one.
Certainly the more professional ap’s do this & rather successfully, unifi, Omada, Draytek, Cisco, etc.
As said 802.11v is out there but it’s unclear how widespread it’s roll out is.
Imho this is a wifi client issue, in the majority of cases it’s the client devices that are mobile & will move between ap coverage zones but the rub is the process to check signal strength & look for alternate connections with the same ssid would take additional resources battery, processing & memory, & while that might be a minimal amount mobile device manufacturers are looking to minimise overheads to maximise performance & longevity. Which also seems counter intuitive to me as I expect holding onto a weak connection will use additional power.
Out of interest what mesh platforms have you tried?
In general the wifi client controls the roaming rather than the wifi access point sure there are some mechanisms to encourage clients to disconnect, minimum service strength being one.
Certainly the more professional ap’s do this & rather successfully, unifi, Omada, Draytek, Cisco, etc.
As said 802.11v is out there but it’s unclear how widespread it’s roll out is.
Imho this is a wifi client issue, in the majority of cases it’s the client devices that are mobile & will move between ap coverage zones but the rub is the process to check signal strength & look for alternate connections with the same ssid would take additional resources battery, processing & memory, & while that might be a minimal amount mobile device manufacturers are looking to minimise overheads to maximise performance & longevity. Which also seems counter intuitive to me as I expect holding onto a weak connection will use additional power.
Out of interest what mesh platforms have you tried?
Apple have supported 802.11v,r and k from quite early on, I think from the iPhone 6 or 6s, same for iPad and Macs from the same period. I'd be very surprised if Android 10 doesn't support it too but you'd need to double check what each manufacturer has included, based on the hardware.
Windows 10 supports it, if the laptop manufacturer has fitted a modern WiFi adapter and the driver supports it, with the exception of 802.11r which you can't do on Windows with a pre shared key.
I'd be surprised if any of the mesh systems support the full set of roaming features, because they're not commercial units and the addition of technical features like this requires a lot of ongoing support and testing - the fewer features they have to implement the cheaper it is. Commercial units designed to cope with 500+ client devices over multiple APs don't have any choice - they have to implement this sort of thing or they won't sell.
It's one of the many reasons people constantly recommend Unifi access points - they're commercial devices albeit at the cheaper end of the market, so have to support a number of features like this. I've just installed a few WiFi 6 AP Lite devices from Unifi at a location, each device cost about £100+vat and can handle 100+ devices, each wired back to a Cisco PoE switch and it's probably the best wifi network I've seen recently. I guess Cisco APs might be better ultimately but at many times the cost of the Unifi, they ought to be. (All on gig CAT 5e too, so proper old skool
)
When you can buy say 3x Uniti WiFi 6 APs for less than the cost of many of the mesh systems, I don't understand the popularity of mesh, especially with the generally poor performance compared to full wired AP systems.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Ubiquiti-UniFi-Lite-Acces...
Add PoE adapters and a cheap switch or a PoE switch and run the free of charge Unifi controller on a PC, Mac, Pi, Linux box etc and you have a fantastic wifi system that will last for years.
Windows 10 supports it, if the laptop manufacturer has fitted a modern WiFi adapter and the driver supports it, with the exception of 802.11r which you can't do on Windows with a pre shared key.
I'd be surprised if any of the mesh systems support the full set of roaming features, because they're not commercial units and the addition of technical features like this requires a lot of ongoing support and testing - the fewer features they have to implement the cheaper it is. Commercial units designed to cope with 500+ client devices over multiple APs don't have any choice - they have to implement this sort of thing or they won't sell.
It's one of the many reasons people constantly recommend Unifi access points - they're commercial devices albeit at the cheaper end of the market, so have to support a number of features like this. I've just installed a few WiFi 6 AP Lite devices from Unifi at a location, each device cost about £100+vat and can handle 100+ devices, each wired back to a Cisco PoE switch and it's probably the best wifi network I've seen recently. I guess Cisco APs might be better ultimately but at many times the cost of the Unifi, they ought to be. (All on gig CAT 5e too, so proper old skool
)When you can buy say 3x Uniti WiFi 6 APs for less than the cost of many of the mesh systems, I don't understand the popularity of mesh, especially with the generally poor performance compared to full wired AP systems.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Ubiquiti-UniFi-Lite-Acces...
Add PoE adapters and a cheap switch or a PoE switch and run the free of charge Unifi controller on a PC, Mac, Pi, Linux box etc and you have a fantastic wifi system that will last for years.
SteveKTMer said:
When you can buy say 3x Uniti WiFi 6 APs for less than the cost of many of the mesh systems, I don't understand the popularity of mesh, especially with the generally poor performance compared to full wired AP systems.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Ubiquiti-UniFi-Lite-Acces...
Add PoE adapters and a cheap switch or a PoE switch and run the free of charge Unifi controller on a PC, Mac, Pi, Linux box etc and you have a fantastic wifi system that will last for years.
I suspect that not everyone has the ability to run the cables to ceiling mount the ap’s or to manage the ap’s via the sdn console, not that it’s hard it’s the perception of it being so.https://www.amazon.co.uk/Ubiquiti-UniFi-Lite-Acces...
Add PoE adapters and a cheap switch or a PoE switch and run the free of charge Unifi controller on a PC, Mac, Pi, Linux box etc and you have a fantastic wifi system that will last for years.
I often recommend folk get the ap’s & switch into the loft & have had a lot of success with one or two ap’s covering whole homes.
My current setup is devolo magic powerline Wi-Fi6 mesh. It’s better than wireless backhaul but that wouldn’t be hard. It’s nowhere near gigabit and as we will hopefully get FttP in 2023, it will be the weak link. The only option now is to go full wired backhaul and I think that means yet another new system. Thinking ubiquiti but the node switching is the thing which concerns me the most. Hopefully from what some of you are saying, it should work a lot better.
I think someone commented that node switching and mesh are not the same thing but mesh is ultimately useless if node switching doesn’t work well so I don’t see them as distinct.
I think someone commented that node switching and mesh are not the same thing but mesh is ultimately useless if node switching doesn’t work well so I don’t see them as distinct.
Captain_Morgan said:
Out of interest what mesh platforms have you tried?
Asus in the past and I currently have 4 FritzBox's dotted liberally about. It works quite well most of the time. The other problem mentioned is annoying as well though: WiFI gets switched off in the small hours of the morning and then it's a race when it gets switched back on again as to what router the fire sticks etc connect to. Unfortunately usually the wrong one.Timothy Bucktu said:
I have three Ubiquiti APs in a mesh with the controller running on my Synology NAS. It's aboulutely flawless. Forget anything else, Ubiquiti is still the best. BUT...although you don't have to, keeping the controller software live all the time does seem to be beneficial.
What other prosumer platforms have you tried or investigated?Edited by Captain_Morgan on Tuesday 27th December 23:08
People talk about WiFi hand over a fair bit but I do wonder who actually wanders around relying on uninterrupted WiFi at home? Even a brief hand over to another AP is not normally an inconvenience unless perhaps you are live streaming a Vlog or suchlike?
My devices choose Their AP and that's that. Sure, the Orbis choose some odd routing with each other occasionally but it still works.
My devices choose Their AP and that's that. Sure, the Orbis choose some odd routing with each other occasionally but it still works.
Timothy Bucktu said:
I have three Ubiquiti APs in a mesh with the controller running on my Synology NAS. It's aboulutely flawless. Forget anything else, Ubiquiti is still the best. BUT...although you don't have to, keeping the controller software live all the time does seem to be beneficial.
I’d dispute this. Personally I think pfsense or OpnSense is pretty much the most powerful you can get.OP, the most fundamental problem with Mesh Wi-Fi is that most people don’t know the difference between Wi-Fi and broadband.
I came across this for Android. Apparently it let you set a threshold, below which it will look for/switch to the strongest signal.
https://android.gadgethacks.com/how-to/make-your-a...
https://android.gadgethacks.com/how-to/make-your-a...
Generally a purpose-built mesh system will work better for roaming purposes than stringing a few routers or powerline AP’s together. At the consumer end even something like the BT wholehome system can work fairly well straight out of the box. The Amplifi products are also a good choice.
I think Unifi is a slightly different prospect though as it takes time, effort and product knowledge to get the best from it. It’s a fine choice for some of the tech experts on this forum to dabble in, but it’s well beyond most peoples ability IMO. I install a lot of Unifi too!
I think Unifi is a slightly different prospect though as it takes time, effort and product knowledge to get the best from it. It’s a fine choice for some of the tech experts on this forum to dabble in, but it’s well beyond most peoples ability IMO. I install a lot of Unifi too!
In the main house (a large sandstone bungalow) I have three ceiling mounted Draytek AP’s in the loft space connected via a PoE switch to a Draytek router ( all in the loft connected by CAT 6). This works well as there is no visible WiFi hardware in house and the WiFi is solid in every room, with the limiting factor being our broadband speed. Expensive compared to consumer mesh system (Velop and Nighthawk), but every mesh system we used before just was not reliable, nodes would drop, poor speed etc etc
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