Any UniFi experts on here?

[mr_tony]

Have read a pile of help,files online and watched a bunch of videos, but not really worked this out, so maybe it’s either a tough one or so obvious - and I’m too dumb to work it out.

Currently running UniFi gen 1 poe24 switch with gen2 cloud key and 5AP had access points. (House is a mess of steel and concrete so each room is its own faraday cage)..

Re wired house so will now have over 50 cat6 socket connections. Got 20 sonos things 6 hue bridges plus various games consoles, a few NAS boxes, plus computers, Apple TV’s and specking 9 UniFi AP’s (that should solve connectivity at least).

Need to add another switch to connect all the sockets. So should I

A) just buy a non Poe 48 socket L2 switch and connect it via a dual fibre SFP connection ? (Assuming that just creates one big switch) so I can connect a crapload of Sonos wired, 9 Poe UniFi APs, and plug in the existing cloud key…

B) get a dream machine pro as an L3 switch and hang the gen 1 poe24 and a gen 2 48 non Poe off that with SFP and SFP+ connectors because that’s more ‘proper’.

(And yes I know Sonos will be a PITA on StP but I live in a faraday cage of a house so hardwiring everything is just easier and I’ll have to take my lumps trying to figure out how not to create feedback loops and manually disconnect all the Sonos from broadcasting their owns mesh I guess)

Or if both the above are dumb ideas, why would you do?

[Captain_Morgan]

Need more data, for starters.

What are you trying to accomplish?
Do you intend to have multiple vlans, trusted, IoT, guest etc?
How many wired devices in total poe vs non-poe?
What is your current routing solution?
Any voip?

If I’m of the opinion given the volume of ap’s you’re putting in I’d try Sonos over wifi before hardwiring
https://livingspeaker.com/what-is-sonosnet/

[Bikerjon]

Read it twice and not sure what the question is but obviously if you're fitting 9 new Unifi AP's then you'll want a POE switch so not sure why you're looking at Non POE? It's nicer running Unifi switches if you want the full Unifi dashboard view, but it's not essential.

I'd also run Sonos off the main Wi-Fi network.

[mr_tony]

So I already have a 24 port gen 1 Poe UniFi switch - that has good power handling and can deal with the Poe requirements in the new setup. However in the new environment I need to connect the additional network ports I have (primarily for Sonos, and for the hue hubs) so the network would expand to be a 24 port POE, connected by SFP fibre to the 48 port non PoE.

Right now the POE requirements are 9 APs plus cloudkey, plus 8 POE cameras so 19 POE ports).

As for network approach, I don’t current have a guest network - could be cool to have one to avoid giving out the regular password, but other than that nothing specific. I’m technical in that I can make my own cables etc and follow a YouTube video,or two, but I know sod all,about network protocols etc. What little I do know led to the below question - is it better just to chain on another switch with fibre over an SFP connection, or should I get an L3 switch to control 2 sub switches, 1 24port (existing) and 1 48 port (new)..

On Sonos, running a Sonos mesh (or trying to run a single hue controller) is just a waste of time in the house, the walls and ceilings are solid concrete with steel reinforcing mesh in them, nothing passes from room to room.

I’ve previously tried running Sonos over the APs but that seems to create issues as being on different APs causes issues with groups or synchronisation issues. Plus rooms seems to disappear randomly. I’d rather just get the Sonos traffic off the Wi-Fi entirely…


Overall what I’m aiming for is

a single home network to run Wi-Fi for devices (phones laptops) but connect all the hardwired stuff that streams etc (Sonos, 5 Apple TV’s PlayStation, Xbox, games pcs, switch, work pc’s etc)

run multiple (probably 6) Phillips hue controllers, to connect to apple home to configure around 120 hue lightbulbs in and around the house.

enable Sonos across 3 bedrooms, living room, kitchen hall and playroom across 18 devices (stereo pairs in bedrooms, 5.1 setup in living room with sub, 4 players in kitchen plus speakers and a sound bar in the study, with a Sonos connect plugged into an amped setup in the playroom… -plus a couple of Sonos moves for outside when necessary….

All the hue kit will be configured to apple HomeKit where viable for voice control to scenes (for lighting)

Edited by mr_tony on Thursday 14th April 17:56

[LooneyTunes]

How fast is your internet, and what is your network base load? If you are at risk of saturating a 1GB link then the “pro” switches will allow you to connect between them at 10G using SFP+. If you’re nowhere near 1GB then you might as well just use patch cables to link.

Guest network is really easy to set up through the interface but does come at an AP throughput cost.

[NorthDave]

I'd definitely go for the dream machine as I think you get a better admin experience and I also think it does network management better.

You should be able to run the Sonos over wi-fi (even different waps) without a problem but hardwiring is equally good. If they are on your WiFi they won't create a mesh of their own so no worries on that front.

[David A]

Just checked and ours is 9aps 4 switches and a gateway and running the UniFi sw on our home server.

The switches are a 48 500w, two 16s and an 8.

All are poe as it just makes it a whole lot easier to k or whatever you plug in you can power. Also note you can get poe to 5 or 12v adaptors so if you want to power a hue hub for example you can do that.

So get a big poe switch and be done with it

Also guest network is good well for guests !

[mr_tony]

David A said:

Just checked and ours is 9aps 4 switches and a gateway and running the UniFi sw on our home server.

The switches are a 48 500w, two 16s and an 8.

All are poe as it just makes it a whole lot easier to k or whatever you plug in you can power. Also note you can get poe to 5 or 12v adaptors so if you want to power a hue hub for example you can do that.

So get a big poe switch and be done with it

Also guest network is good well for guests !

How have you connected them ? With SFP / fibre, or just regular copper?

[David A]

Just regular copper. As you can see by the names they are scattered around the house / garden / buildings and there are APs, cameras, av stuff, hue stuff that hang off them In the various points. We have 4 hue hubs for example. So some longish runs of cat 5 - all work fine.

[mr_tony]

LooneyTunes said:

How fast is your internet, and what is your network base load? If you are at risk of saturating a 1GB link then the “pro” switches will allow you to connect between them at 10G using SFP+. If you’re nowhere near 1GB then you might as well just use patch cables to link.

Guest network is really easy to set up through the interface but does come at an AP throughput cost.

Not sure how I would even calculate the load!

The switch I have is a Uniti gen 1 Poe 24 - it only has SFP not SFP + and despite reading several manuals the advice conflicts - some say that SFP+ will negotiate down to SFP, others say you can’t connect and SFP + to an SFP. (Any switch I add is likely to have SFP+)

I’m going to need 2 switches at least - as with over 52 cat 6 sockets out there I’ll need more than 48 portt. So obvious solution is obvious, just chain switch 1 to switch 2 with cat 6 or with fibre if I can figure out if SFP+ and SFP talk to each other…

As i asked in the first post though, I’m confused because from what I’ve read about networking, chaining switches together is regarded as poor practice, and the advice I’ve seen is to get a layer 3 switch to manage 2 layer 2 switches, - so at this rate I need an L3 switch connected by SFP to an L2 48 port switch and the 24 port L2 switch that I already have, plus a dream machine to manage the cloud key and I guess run a firewall (although the last firewall I set up was running on a Pentium chip so figure I have some reading up to do there too!) just seems like overkill, but given how much of the house is going to depend on the network running (all the lights, tv and music) I really want it to work smoothly…

Internet speed is crap - 50mb/s - I live in the sticks. The folks 150 yards away across the field have fibre but the fibre company doesn’t want to bring it any further so that’s not going to improve any time soon….

Edited by mr_tony on Thursday 14th April 19:33

[theboss]

I don't have experience of Sonos but I have had to get in-depth with Linn streaming on my Unifi network and whilst the streaming implementations are no doubt very different as a principle I found it best to isolate the audio stuff on its own VLAN and avoid wireless altogether, or if unavoidable give them their own SSID so wireless parameters can be optimised without affecting anything else.

I would also be wary of the UDM at the moment in any more advanced setup, they lack a lot of the more in-depth functionality that the older USG's have. The newer UnifiOS seems a little half-baked, a bit like the new GUI.

When my leased line arrives in 3 months time I will embarking on some upgrades myself. Out of interest what did the re-wire involve? Did you happen to be comprehensively redecorating at the same time?

[mr_tony]

theboss said:

I don't have experience of Sonos but I have had to get in-depth with Linn streaming on my Unifi network and whilst the streaming implementations are no doubt very different as a principle I found it best to isolate the audio stuff on its own VLAN and avoid wireless altogether, or if unavoidable give them their own SSID so wireless parameters can be optimised without affecting anything else.

I would also be wary of the UDM at the moment in any more advanced setup, they lack a lot of the more in-depth functionality that the older USG's have. The newer UnifiOS seems a little half-baked, a bit like the new GUI.

Never set up a VLAN but not afraid to have a go. Maybe this is a dumb question, but surely if the players are on on a segregated vlan, but you;e using your mobile to access the Wi-Fi for the app, on another vlan, then you’re out of luck trying to stream data from that to the Sonos players, because they can’t see the app ‘ device etc ?

[ffc]

Just go with option A. If you connect with dual links (copper or fibre is irrelevant) make the link into an aggregate running LACP and you won't have any loop issues. You'll have more than enough bandwidth to do what you need without any issues. I'd plug the SONOS kit into the switches as well, for now wired networks will work better than wireless. If you set-up VLAN's you'll need to route between them somehow and if you want to avoid hassle I would bother.

[theboss]

mr_tony said:

theboss said:

I don't have experience of Sonos but I have had to get in-depth with Linn streaming on my Unifi network and whilst the streaming implementations are no doubt very different as a principle I found it best to isolate the audio stuff on its own VLAN and avoid wireless altogether, or if unavoidable give them their own SSID so wireless parameters can be optimised without affecting anything else.

I would also be wary of the UDM at the moment in any more advanced setup, they lack a lot of the more in-depth functionality that the older USG's have. The newer UnifiOS seems a little half-baked, a bit like the new GUI.

Never set up a VLAN but not afraid to have a go. Maybe this is a dumb question, but surely if the players are on on a segregated vlan, but you;e using your mobile to access the Wi-Fi for the app, on another vlan, then you’re out of luck trying to stream data from that to the Sonos players, because they can’t see the app ‘ device etc ?

This is where it gets complicated because most of these systems use multicast for discovery and control built around an assumption that 99.9% of home networks consist of a single subnet / broadcast domain. (e.g. 192.168.1.0/24)

I don't know for sure about Sonos but I believe they use mDNS which both the Unifi USG and (I believe) UDM offers the simple capability to repeat across VLANs. I would have to do some research but I'm fairly confident in my own troubleshooting that I encountered plenty of articles where Unifi customers had achieved discovery / control of Sonos across VLANs by enabling this.

Linn make it more complicated than that unfortunately and I resorted to using Roon with a multi-homed server with a NIC in each VLAN, which lets me use my phone on any SSID and still control the streaming devices on their dedicated network.

Inter-VLAN routing with unifi is a piece of cake, USG or UDM will do this automatically. If you get a L3 switch you can decide if you want that to do the job instead, there's a setting per network which defines which device will perform the routing thus acting as a gateway for the associated subnet.

Edited by theboss on Thursday 14th April 19:56

[mr_tony]

Ok folks this is really helpful. Have done some Googling on vlans and Sonos and found this https://www.packetmischief.ca/2021/08/04/operating... - looks pretty comprehensive.

However at this stage I figure I’ll just attempt connecting two switches together and crossing my fingers that a fully wired Sonos configuration solves things. Great to know there’s an option to power a hue hub over POE too as that could neaten up some of my install in a few rooms. If that doesn’t work then maybe it’s worth an L3 switch and getting into,vlan configurations…

The bit I’m least looking forward to once I move back in is scanning in all the qr codes for the hue bulbs, that’s going to,be a sod of a job, but am hoping it will be really cool once I get to the point of having a whole load of pre programmed scenes in for different setups along with a load of automation rules. After years of living the house with minimal or no heating ‘ hot water and knackered lighting and electrics it’s going to be pretty awesome to have alll this stuff come together after a year or so of construction….

On the plus side my 12unit network cabinet turned up today with a load of fresh rack screws a new UPS and a couple of patch bays, cable bars and tidys and a couple of shelves for the NAS and the iMacs - it’s all getting installed on Tuesday. Still got a long way to go on the house until we can move back in in July though…

[David A]

Hint you want the iConnectHue app. Makes it soooo much better and easier.

[LooneyTunes]

mr_tony said:

Not sure how I would even calculate the load!

The switch I have is a Uniti gen 1 Poe 24 - it only has SFP not SFP + and despite reading several manuals the advice conflicts - some say that SFP+ will negotiate down to SFP, others say you can’t connect and SFP + to an SFP. (Any switch I add is likely to have SFP+)

I’m going to need 2 switches at least - as with over 52 cat 6 sockets out there I’ll need more than 48 portt. So obvious solution is obvious, just chain switch 1 to switch 2 with cat 6 or with fibre if I can figure out if SFP+ and SFP talk to each other…

As i asked in the first post though, I’m confused because from what I’ve read about networking, chaining switches together is regarded as poor practice, and the advice I’ve seen is to get a layer 3 switch to manage 2 layer 2 switches, - so at this rate I need an L3 switch connected by SFP to an L2 48 port switch and the 24 port L2 switch that I already have, plus a dream machine to manage the cloud key and I guess run a firewall (although the last firewall I set up was running on a Pentium chip so figure I have some reading up to do there too!) just seems like overkill, but given how much of the house is going to depend on the network running (all the lights, tv and music) I really want it to work smoothly…

Internet speed is crap - 50mb/s - I live in the sticks. The folks 150 yards away across the field have fibre but the fibre company doesn’t want to bring it any further so that’s not going to improve any time soon….

Edited by mr_tony on Thursday 14th April 19:33

If your internet connection is 50 meg then unless you run a serious home server or IP security system there’s virtually no chance you’ll be saturating gigabit Ethernet anywhere on your network. You can daisy chain switches. Each extra switch will add a little bit of latency but your chances of noticing are virtually nil. I believe sfp to sfp+ will work but I’m not sure there’s any benefit vs using a (much cheaper) patch lead between the two switches. If your network loads had been higher then there might have been benefit to using sfp+ To get 10G links between switches (and avoid those connections acting as bottlenecks).

UDM-pro eliminates the need for a cloud key (quite simple to migrate from CK to UDMP, did it a few weeks ago) and for firewall, the intrusion protection features in the UDMP are going to be better than most people run but obviously it is possible to go more complex if you want.

Your Sonos will probably just work if you plug it in. The article you linked to is about putting it on a separate vlans. Is this something you’re planning on doing? There is some logic in keeping connected devices away from your data but it does come with increased ongoing complexity.

[theboss]

mr_tony said:

Ok folks this is really helpful. Have done some Googling on vlans and Sonos and found this https://www.packetmischief.ca/2021/08/04/operating... - looks pretty comprehensive.

However at this stage I figure I’ll just attempt connecting two switches together and crossing my fingers that a fully wired Sonos configuration solves things. Great to know there’s an option to power a hue hub over POE too as that could neaten up some of my install in a few rooms. If that doesn’t work then maybe it’s worth an L3 switch and getting into,vlan configurations…

The bit I’m least looking forward to once I move back in is scanning in all the qr codes for the hue bulbs, that’s going to,be a sod of a job, but am hoping it will be really cool once I get to the point of having a whole load of pre programmed scenes in for different setups along with a load of automation rules. After years of living the house with minimal or no heating ‘ hot water and knackered lighting and electrics it’s going to be pretty awesome to have alll this stuff come together after a year or so of construction….

On the plus side my 12unit network cabinet turned up today with a load of fresh rack screws a new UPS and a couple of patch bays, cable bars and tidys and a couple of shelves for the NAS and the iMacs - it’s all getting installed on Tuesday. Still got a long way to go on the house until we can move back in in July though…

That's a good article which sets out the various issues I tried to overcome last year (or whenever it was, I've lost track of time)

The problem was that even after wrapping my head around SSDP and enabling igmpproxy on my USG and I discovered (painfully with wireshark) that my devices respond to the controller with multicast rather than unicast, and igmpproxy only works in one direction.

However what I did discover is that the moment I got this working other services such as Airplay and Spotify connect suddenly worked flawlessly across VLANs and I hope that Sonos would too.

This is ultimately why I haven't bought a UDM Pro - it can't do igmpproxy or support any of the CLI based configurations that USG does which aren't exposed in the GUI.

Policy based routing and outbound connection load-balancing if you have multiple WAN connections is another - it can be done with USG but not UDM which supports failover only.

Good luck with it. I agree with the posters above. You won't lost anything in a <1Gbps typical network by chaining a few switches. I have a somewhat makeshift network currently in my new house and am utilising some Coax links using G.hn modems and even thats all working perfectly with sub-1ms latency and gig speeds. Who the hell wires a 2013 house build with Coax everywhere but not Cat5/6 FFS.

[Captain_Morgan]

Sorry but have asked before and I don’t believe you confirmed what router/firewall you are using.

This will have a significant part to play in your network.

If I recall correctly it’s a cloud key2 plus a 24 port poe unifi switch and 7-9 ap’s plus whatever modem & fw/router you have

Edited by Captain_Morgan on Friday 15th April 07:01

[megaphone]

Yes, OP what router do you have? Can it be put into modem mode?