Legal Advice ...
Discussion
Some advice please chaps.
In July 2002 a mate brought one of his work colleagues (nightclubs/bars) into my office as she was setting up a promotions agency and wanted a corporate identity and website. She also needed to get some of her files off her existing company website and duly gave me her username and password for me to download.
In our first meeting, together we came up with the name of her company and I registered a domain name for her, which I paid for. I also did the work on a logo and started work on her website. I spent *hours* downloading her files (only on ISDN then).
I didn't hear from her for ages and so couldn't proceed with the logo and website any further. I wasn't too worried as I knew she was headed to Ibiza for the rest of the summer, but when I still couldn't get hold of her over the Winter, I thought that I should really raise an invoice. In Feb 03, I therefore raised an invoice for approx £400 and sent it to her. This was raised in the name of the limited company that she had set up.
In Sep 03, I found out that the domain name had been transferred away
(her company was now down as the registrant). Less than pleased with a certain registration agent that sounds like you're counting ...
In the meantime, I've sent several reminders.
Thinking seriously about small claims court proceedings, I checked with Companies House to find that the company was dissolved Jan 04! Am I now screwed and have to write-off the invoice?
Does the fact that the work was done before the company was setup make a difference? (I registered the domain name on 22/07/02, the company was incorporated 23/07/02). It is her debt and it is bloody annoying that she may get away with it. My mate doesn't know where she is now.
Any chance?
In July 2002 a mate brought one of his work colleagues (nightclubs/bars) into my office as she was setting up a promotions agency and wanted a corporate identity and website. She also needed to get some of her files off her existing company website and duly gave me her username and password for me to download.
In our first meeting, together we came up with the name of her company and I registered a domain name for her, which I paid for. I also did the work on a logo and started work on her website. I spent *hours* downloading her files (only on ISDN then).
I didn't hear from her for ages and so couldn't proceed with the logo and website any further. I wasn't too worried as I knew she was headed to Ibiza for the rest of the summer, but when I still couldn't get hold of her over the Winter, I thought that I should really raise an invoice. In Feb 03, I therefore raised an invoice for approx £400 and sent it to her. This was raised in the name of the limited company that she had set up.
In Sep 03, I found out that the domain name had been transferred away
(her company was now down as the registrant). Less than pleased with a certain registration agent that sounds like you're counting ... In the meantime, I've sent several reminders.
Thinking seriously about small claims court proceedings, I checked with Companies House to find that the company was dissolved Jan 04! Am I now screwed and have to write-off the invoice?
Does the fact that the work was done before the company was setup make a difference? (I registered the domain name on 22/07/02, the company was incorporated 23/07/02). It is her debt and it is bloody annoying that she may get away with it. My mate doesn't know where she is now.
Any chance?
I'm in the same game and have faced the same situation many times.
Now, of course you got a purchase order or written confirmation, signed contact reports and a file of correspondance to prove that the work was required.....haven't you?
Of course you haven't - she was a mate's mate and wouldn't screw you over would she!
Well, we've all been there and it don't work like that....but the hard fact is that it should.
No Purchase Order - No Work!
However, if you do have paper work that shows that you acted as required and requested, e-mails, quotes, etc.. then the small claims court may be worth a punt.
If you need to track her down, call a chap called Simon Hayes on 07957 847986. He may also be able to serve demands upon her too. Nice chap so give him call and mention me! (Steve Bates).
Good luck and just be thankfull there aren't a few more "0" involved!
Now, of course you got a purchase order or written confirmation, signed contact reports and a file of correspondance to prove that the work was required.....haven't you?
Of course you haven't - she was a mate's mate and wouldn't screw you over would she!
Well, we've all been there and it don't work like that....but the hard fact is that it should.
No Purchase Order - No Work!
However, if you do have paper work that shows that you acted as required and requested, e-mails, quotes, etc.. then the small claims court may be worth a punt.
If you need to track her down, call a chap called Simon Hayes on 07957 847986. He may also be able to serve demands upon her too. Nice chap so give him call and mention me! (Steve Bates).
Good luck and just be thankfull there aren't a few more "0" involved!
ph_flyer said:
Does the fact that the work was done before the company was setup make a difference?
Legal bods may clarify this but I think you will find that your debtor is her rather than her company.
This should in fact work in your favour because if the ltd company is wound up with no assets, and if the court finds in your favour, then you will still not get your money.
Assuming you can find her, then the debt is not covered by the proetction of Limited Gurantee.
That said, you have raised an invoice to the Ltd co so it may be worth raising a credit note to the full amount and then issuing another invoice to her, personally.
It will delay things a bit but might be the best approach but as I say, check with legal experts first. - all I have is first hand experience!
steviebee said:
I'm in the same game and have faced the same situation many times.
Now, of course you got a purchase order or written confirmation, signed contact reports and a file of correspondance to prove that the work was required.....haven't you?
Of course you haven't - she was a mate's mate and wouldn't screw you over would she!
Ha! She was cute as well
(procedures have been changed now though). I just have my notes of the meeting, along with her handwriting giving the username and password and what she wanted.
Thanks for the phone number - can you give an idea of his charges?
steviebee said:
Good luck and just be thankfull there aren't a few more "0" involved!
Indeed! I did charge her a discounted rate, thinking there would be more work to come - another lesson learned
Fortunately, I hadn't done much work on her website.steviebee said:
Legal bods may clarify this but I think you will find that your debtor is her rather than her company.
That's the crucial point - if it's the company that owes me, then I'm think I'm stuffed? If it's her personally then I should be OK?
steviebee said:
That said, you have raised an invoice to the Ltd co so it may be worth raising a credit note to the full amount and then issuing another invoice to her, personally.
Can't do that, surely?
Cheers
Andrew
Oh dear. I think your good and trusting nature has been taken advantage of.
So can you upload something suitably informative to that site?
That sounds desperately absent-minded. Was any sum agreed before you started the work? It seems highly unlikley there was anything on paper. Plus, the limited company never ordered anything from you did they?
If you were the domain owner, how did this happen?
Sorry, waste of time. This person is not going to pay.
Get a CCJ if it makes you feel better, but that sort of ltd company is used to help dodgy people stay dodgy. As someone else said, your best claim is against the person, but I'll be very surprised if you get anything. Letters aren't working; I think you'll have to ring them up and try the patient route. But still be prepared to write the debt off.
A very similar thing happened to me about 10 years ago. Take comfort from the fact that (1) it's not really much money and (2) it was mostly time, not goods you had to pay for first. Regard it as a good experience; next time you'll know the warning signs.
File under 'Older and Wiser'.... sorry you got caught out for being trusting.
ph_flyer said:
She also needed to get some of her files off her existing company website and duly gave me her username and password for me to download.
So can you upload something suitably informative to that site?
ph_flyer said:
I thought that I should really raise an invoice. In Feb 03, I therefore raised an invoice for approx £400 and sent it to her. This was raised in the name of the limited company that she had set up.
That sounds desperately absent-minded. Was any sum agreed before you started the work? It seems highly unlikley there was anything on paper. Plus, the limited company never ordered anything from you did they?
ph_flyer said:
In Sep 03, I found out that the domain name had been transferred away
If you were the domain owner, how did this happen?
ph_flyer said:
In the meantime, I've sent several reminders.
Sorry, waste of time. This person is not going to pay.
ph_flyer said:
Thinking seriously about small claims court proceedings, I checked with Companies House to find that the company was dissolved Jan 04! Am I now screwed and have to write-off the invoice?
Get a CCJ if it makes you feel better, but that sort of ltd company is used to help dodgy people stay dodgy. As someone else said, your best claim is against the person, but I'll be very surprised if you get anything. Letters aren't working; I think you'll have to ring them up and try the patient route. But still be prepared to write the debt off.
A very similar thing happened to me about 10 years ago. Take comfort from the fact that (1) it's not really much money and (2) it was mostly time, not goods you had to pay for first. Regard it as a good experience; next time you'll know the warning signs.
File under 'Older and Wiser'.... sorry you got caught out for being trusting.
simpo two said:
Oh dear. I think your good and trusting nature has been taken advantage of.
Indeed, but lesson learned.
simpo two said:
So can you upload something suitably informative to that site?
No, it's an employee access portal for a large corporation that specialise in leisure, I believe they were first in their field of nightclubs and bars.
simpo two said:
That sounds desperately absent-minded. Was any sum agreed before you started the work? It seems highly unlikley there was anything on paper. Plus, the limited company never ordered anything from you did they?
I know, I know. I informed her that the total job was likely to be around £3k and we would do stage payments, but "let's just get things moving and we'll deal with the invoices later"
What can I say, I'm a guy who was easily swayed by her fitness 
simpo two said:
If you were the domain owner, how did this happen?
Don't know. 123, sorry, the domain registrar were less than helpful. Another lesson learned.
simpo two said:
A very similar thing happened to me about 10 years ago. Take comfort from the fact that (1) it's not really much money and (2) it was mostly time, not goods you had to pay for first. Regard it as a good experience; next time you'll know the warning signs.
Yep, not a lot of money, just the fact that I feel I was done over. I do want to pursue her, the money would be great, but more for the fact that I won't feel that she got one over on me and shafted me. Maybe I should just issue in her name and see what develops ... or maybe I should let it go and move on ...
ph_flyer said:
Don't know. 123, sorry, the domain registrar were less than helpful. Another lesson learned.
You may not get any loot from the woman, but I'd say 123 breached something. I'm sure they can only transfer domain ownership with permission. Maybe Trading Standards would be able to help you?
It's late, but ....
Basic legal theory, if company didn't exist, they couldn't legally instruct you, she did. So liability is hers. Prove she ordered stuff ! Got an invoice ? a signature ? a witness ? If none of these, you can still claim cash, but hard to prove who instructed you, what she ordered. Did you do it on spec ? free sample ? Can you prove otherwise ?
You can go via small claim but at the end of the day is it worth it ? Moral is whatever you do, and whoever for, get it in writing and signed.
Experience is a valuable thing, but expensive to acquire.
Basic legal theory, if company didn't exist, they couldn't legally instruct you, she did. So liability is hers. Prove she ordered stuff ! Got an invoice ? a signature ? a witness ? If none of these, you can still claim cash, but hard to prove who instructed you, what she ordered. Did you do it on spec ? free sample ? Can you prove otherwise ?
You can go via small claim but at the end of the day is it worth it ? Moral is whatever you do, and whoever for, get it in writing and signed.
Experience is a valuable thing, but expensive to acquire.
Good luck with the claim.
Reminds you of those two guys who emigrated to Greece and ordered that sliding window for £38k. When they found that it wasn't going to fit after all, they simply texted a cancellation through. Can't remember what the programme was called.
They hadn't signed any order so presimably the glass company couldn't do anything about it. I bet someone's head was on the block there.
Doesn't it really annoy you when people order something and then fail to finish the deal!
Reminds you of those two guys who emigrated to Greece and ordered that sliding window for £38k. When they found that it wasn't going to fit after all, they simply texted a cancellation through. Can't remember what the programme was called.
They hadn't signed any order so presimably the glass company couldn't do anything about it. I bet someone's head was on the block there.
Doesn't it really annoy you when people order something and then fail to finish the deal!
I think most of us with our own businesses have been stung in this way to some extent, I am no exception.
I always as a matter of course now charge a percentage or all of the fee in advance of any work to cover backs, and require a written order or signature to my order form.
Its always favours for mates which turn into a headache, whether its lack of money or time spent, goo dluck though.
I always as a matter of course now charge a percentage or all of the fee in advance of any work to cover backs, and require a written order or signature to my order form.
Its always favours for mates which turn into a headache, whether its lack of money or time spent, goo dluck though.
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