Does anyone know anything about Homeworking?
Discussion
Hi everyone,
We have a new business to business telesales project coming online rather soon.
Our marketing director has decided that we might be able to do something rather unusual with this one and use self employed staff, working from home on a commissions only basis.
Sounds like a great idea, however I have no idea where to even start looking for the potential pitfalls of this approach.
Does anyone have any experience regarding hiring and operating people working from home?
We have a new business to business telesales project coming online rather soon.
Our marketing director has decided that we might be able to do something rather unusual with this one and use self employed staff, working from home on a commissions only basis.
Sounds like a great idea, however I have no idea where to even start looking for the potential pitfalls of this approach.
Does anyone have any experience regarding hiring and operating people working from home?
First of all, ensuring that the personnel you are using can be safely determined to be "Self Employed" rather than ordinary "Employees" may be difficult. Having them work from their own homes and paying them commission only is no guarantee of "Self Employed" status. Whether an individual is employed or trading on their own account is important from both an employment legislation point of view, from a tax and National Insurance point of view and, increasingly, from an employer's liability and Health and Safety point of view.
On a purely practical issue, ensuring control of the quality and amount of work of someone working remotely from the HQ of an enterprise is obviously more tricky than overseeing someone sitting at their desk in an office (have you ever seen "The Simpons" episode where Homer elects to work from home, falls asleep on the job and causes the nuclear power plant to melt down?).
On a purely practical issue, ensuring control of the quality and amount of work of someone working remotely from the HQ of an enterprise is obviously more tricky than overseeing someone sitting at their desk in an office (have you ever seen "The Simpons" episode where Homer elects to work from home, falls asleep on the job and causes the nuclear power plant to melt down?).
I'm setting this up at the moment for some of our call centre staff.
The ACD is taking care of the calls using web powered agents on the users own PC to log into the switch.
Then Citrix NFuse is being used to push the rich client GUI apps through a browser.
The actual calls are then being routed over PSTN.
You log onto the app and log onto the ACD and bobs yer aunties live in lover.
As for the self employed aspect, dont really know, would an LLP be a fit in this scenario?
The ACD is taking care of the calls using web powered agents on the users own PC to log into the switch.
Then Citrix NFuse is being used to push the rich client GUI apps through a browser.
The actual calls are then being routed over PSTN.
You log onto the app and log onto the ACD and bobs yer aunties live in lover.
As for the self employed aspect, dont really know, would an LLP be a fit in this scenario?
Not my specialist subject by any means, but...
the people who you want to be self employed will need to be registered as Sole Traders of Ltd Companies or whatever in their own right I believe.
Also you may have to watch teh IR34 tax laws (i think that is the one) which is supposed to stop this sort of thing, it will not allow a person to work only for 1 company for something like 3 months.
I would say go talk to your/an accountant or something who would be able to advise properly.
the people who you want to be self employed will need to be registered as Sole Traders of Ltd Companies or whatever in their own right I believe.
Also you may have to watch teh IR34 tax laws (i think that is the one) which is supposed to stop this sort of thing, it will not allow a person to work only for 1 company for something like 3 months.
I would say go talk to your/an accountant or something who would be able to advise properly.
Telemarketing consultants working from home is very common currently, I know of many who work for clients very successfully in this way.
Commission only is you are going to come unstuck.
There is a shortage of skilled telemarketing consultants at the moment and basics start at around 16k up to 23k for someone experienced and there is still strong competition for even the entry level consultants with 6 months customer service experience. (Please see my thread here www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=78895&f=92&h=0).
The other problem you have is that someone working commission only will have 0% loyalty to your company and products. It is very hard to build a boss - employee relationship with someone you are not paying for there time (directly anyway) IMHO.
Going selfemployed also costs no matter what setup you go for. I.E Ltd comp set up fees, accountants fees etc and unless you are earning over £xyz per year there is no bnft to working in this way for the consultant. It is unlikly you will get someone working commission only in this way unless you find a sales person who has there one ltd comp and some extra hours on their hands (very hard to do).
The solution is to go to an agency that provides sales staff on a temp basis (like me
) or outsource the whole sales project to a sales outsourcing consultantcy (I am happy to recommed some if thats the way you want to go). The differance is cost.
The agency route will cost you £110-130 per person per day, the consultancy £200-300 per person per day all in.
I put out a few feelers myself not to long ago about getting on board a recruitment consultant who was prepared to work from home on this basis, the response was non existent.
Please do not waste your time in difficult market conditions anyone with half a brain will stay well clear of commission only.
If you need telemarketer then pay a basic of £15-18k (or less if they can work from home) and get someone who is going to want to work for you.
Mail me if you have any questions I am happy to help if I can. Recruiting Telemarketers / Sales consultants makes up about 60% of my working week at the moment.
Sam
>> Edited by samn01 on Friday 6th February 11:10
Commission only is you are going to come unstuck.
There is a shortage of skilled telemarketing consultants at the moment and basics start at around 16k up to 23k for someone experienced and there is still strong competition for even the entry level consultants with 6 months customer service experience. (Please see my thread here www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=78895&f=92&h=0).
The other problem you have is that someone working commission only will have 0% loyalty to your company and products. It is very hard to build a boss - employee relationship with someone you are not paying for there time (directly anyway) IMHO.
Going selfemployed also costs no matter what setup you go for. I.E Ltd comp set up fees, accountants fees etc and unless you are earning over £xyz per year there is no bnft to working in this way for the consultant. It is unlikly you will get someone working commission only in this way unless you find a sales person who has there one ltd comp and some extra hours on their hands (very hard to do).
The solution is to go to an agency that provides sales staff on a temp basis (like me
) or outsource the whole sales project to a sales outsourcing consultantcy (I am happy to recommed some if thats the way you want to go). The differance is cost. The agency route will cost you £110-130 per person per day, the consultancy £200-300 per person per day all in.
I put out a few feelers myself not to long ago about getting on board a recruitment consultant who was prepared to work from home on this basis, the response was non existent.
Please do not waste your time in difficult market conditions anyone with half a brain will stay well clear of commission only.
If you need telemarketer then pay a basic of £15-18k (or less if they can work from home) and get someone who is going to want to work for you.
Mail me if you have any questions I am happy to help if I can. Recruiting Telemarketers / Sales consultants makes up about 60% of my working week at the moment.
Sam
>> Edited by samn01 on Friday 6th February 11:10
Furby - I am afraid you are a bit mixed up here.
Whether a person is "Self Employed" or an "Employee" is not always easy to determine. For a start, just because the individuals concerned WANT to be treated as being Self Employed does not mean that they can operate in this manner. The Inland Revenue have the power to challenge Self Employment status when they feel that the individuals are REALLY acting or are being treated in the manner of employees.
IR35 (not IR35) does not relate to Self Employed individuals at all. It is a piece of legislation which strictly relates to individuals who trade through a Limited Company or a partnership and who use this company or partnership as an INTERMEDIARY between themselves as individuals and the people they are working for.
Ordinary Self Employed individuals (also known as Sole Traders) DO NOT have to formally register as traders with any government agencies. The only people who need to know your status as a sole trader are the Inland Revenue for tax and National Insurance purposes.
Limited Companies MUST register with Companies House before they can be legally set up.
Whether a person is "Self Employed" or an "Employee" is not always easy to determine. For a start, just because the individuals concerned WANT to be treated as being Self Employed does not mean that they can operate in this manner. The Inland Revenue have the power to challenge Self Employment status when they feel that the individuals are REALLY acting or are being treated in the manner of employees.
IR35 (not IR35) does not relate to Self Employed individuals at all. It is a piece of legislation which strictly relates to individuals who trade through a Limited Company or a partnership and who use this company or partnership as an INTERMEDIARY between themselves as individuals and the people they are working for.
Ordinary Self Employed individuals (also known as Sole Traders) DO NOT have to formally register as traders with any government agencies. The only people who need to know your status as a sole trader are the Inland Revenue for tax and National Insurance purposes.
Limited Companies MUST register with Companies House before they can be legally set up.
eric mc said:
Furby - I am afraid you are a bit mixed up here.
As i Said not my specialist subject. I just remember I was advised about IR35 when i set up my company. Anything like this I pass across to my man that can, I concentrate on the work.
Just trying to help the discussion along, apologies if I confused the subject.
Singlecoil - no, it's not that simple. For an individual to successfully argue that he or she is truly "trading", he or she must exhibit a sufficient number of what are termed "the badges of trade". These are:
a large element of control over their own work -
this means determing how long a job will take, what materials to buy, when the job starts and finishes etc.
multiple customers.
use of own tools and equipmet
liability for standard of work conducted
liability to third parties
obvious evidence that one is running one's own business - having a definite business premises (a shop, an office etc), registering for VAT, using one's own employees.
different treatment compared to employees in the organisation you may be doing work for - non-payment of holiday time, non payment of periods of sick leave, no rights to partake in company pension/share/benefit schemes etc that are open to "genuine" employees.
There are more which I cannot remember just at the moment. No "one" of the above factors on their own determine whether one is self employed or not. It is the overall "picture" that is examined before status can be determined.
a large element of control over their own work -
this means determing how long a job will take, what materials to buy, when the job starts and finishes etc.
multiple customers.
use of own tools and equipmet
liability for standard of work conducted
liability to third parties
obvious evidence that one is running one's own business - having a definite business premises (a shop, an office etc), registering for VAT, using one's own employees.
different treatment compared to employees in the organisation you may be doing work for - non-payment of holiday time, non payment of periods of sick leave, no rights to partake in company pension/share/benefit schemes etc that are open to "genuine" employees.
There are more which I cannot remember just at the moment. No "one" of the above factors on their own determine whether one is self employed or not. It is the overall "picture" that is examined before status can be determined.
But that's not true either. There are quite a few people who have a number of part time jobs and are correctly treated as employees in ALL those jobs. "Multiple sources of income" ON ITS OWN is not always an indicator of Self Employment.
It's the overall situation which determines status - not just one indicator.
It's the overall situation which determines status - not just one indicator.
singlecoil said:
I'd like to add to what Eric said, that the test of whether or not a person is genuinely self employed is their income. Does all or the vast majority of it come from a single source? If so, then employee.
How about if I change the 'the' in the first sentence to 'a' (that's what I meant to say anyway). Would the above still be untrue?
It would be closer to the real situation. Having more than one source of income can be ONE inicator that you MIGHT be "trading". Whenever I am advising a client about whether they can classify what they are doing as "trading", I always recommend that they at least TRY to find as many customers for their srvices as they can.
Sorry for the diversion - but whether the individuals working for you are "employees" or "self employed" contractors is a pretty VITAL factor to get right. If you get it wrong as an employer, it will cost you BIG money to rectify the situation and could very well put you out of business. It has happened before.
>> Edited by eric mc on Friday 6th February 17:36
Sorry for the diversion - but whether the individuals working for you are "employees" or "self employed" contractors is a pretty VITAL factor to get right. If you get it wrong as an employer, it will cost you BIG money to rectify the situation and could very well put you out of business. It has happened before.
>> Edited by eric mc on Friday 6th February 17:36
Thanks for the feedback everyone.
So the idea isnt totally dead in the water, but the self employed aspect is out.
The only way this could work is on either a cost-per-call inbound model, or a commission only model for outbound.
As a result, where do we stand with the minimum wage?
I wouldn't go into a project with the expectation of paying people next to nothing, however there is always the chance of either a slow period on inbound or a period of low results on outbound sales that could result in lower average earnings.
So the idea isnt totally dead in the water, but the self employed aspect is out.
The only way this could work is on either a cost-per-call inbound model, or a commission only model for outbound.
As a result, where do we stand with the minimum wage?
I wouldn't go into a project with the expectation of paying people next to nothing, however there is always the chance of either a slow period on inbound or a period of low results on outbound sales that could result in lower average earnings.
Plotloss said:
Then Citrix NFuse is being used to push the rich client GUI apps through a browser.
If you are paying for this solution then I hope MetaFrame Web Interface 2.1 is being implemented, and not NFuse - it's the previous version. (Unless of course your product development lifecycle dictates that NFuse 1.71 is the version to be used until the next version is tested).
Don't want to teach you to suck eggs, but if you need a hand drop me a mail - SBC is my thing - currently leading a 13,200 seat implementation.
If you end up with employees working from their homes then you need to look in detail at the health and safety implications. I think you have to ensure that they have a suitable working environment... ie. proper desk to work at, proper provisions for PC (not overloading power sockets etc.) suitable chair etc...
Fairly simple, but it's just to ensure they don't sit on their sofa balancing a PC on their knee, phone on their shoulder and a hot cup of coffe in one hand - then try to sue for RSI etc....
Fairly simple, but it's just to ensure they don't sit on their sofa balancing a PC on their knee, phone on their shoulder and a hot cup of coffe in one hand - then try to sue for RSI etc....
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