Any Surveyors out there?
Discussion
We had a look at a house over the weekend which we are quite interested in but think the asking price is way too high. I'm also concerned about a few areas that are going to need attention in the short term but obviously need some professional advice.
I could go the normal route of using the mortgage company and all that goes with it, but wondered if I could just employ a surveyor to come round with me and give an honest appraisal of what they think.
Is that the done thing or am I going against protocol here? All I want is some off the record impartial advice and not something from anyone tied to an agent of some description.
I could go the normal route of using the mortgage company and all that goes with it, but wondered if I could just employ a surveyor to come round with me and give an honest appraisal of what they think.
Is that the done thing or am I going against protocol here? All I want is some off the record impartial advice and not something from anyone tied to an agent of some description.
There's no reason why you should stick with the mortgage company's surveyor - they will need to send one round for valuation but that is not really an indicator of condition or work required. There is nothing to stop you employing your own surveyor who should give you a clear view of what is required. However in my opinion surveyors often try to cover themselves and give you a worse impression than might be necessary - an example in a place I bought was where there was some water staining on a velux window and the surveyor said they might have been leaking when it was obvious that the students that had been living there had left them open when it rained, sure enough they have never leaked.
I would suggest you bring in a builder/plumber/electrician etc who will give you an honest opinion and also an indication of cost.
I would suggest you bring in a builder/plumber/electrician etc who will give you an honest opinion and also an indication of cost.
Mark,
I'm an Architect, but I've worked as a building surveyor in the past (the dividing line between the two professions is fairly blurred, anyway).
Are you thinking of the basic Building Society survey, or a full Structural Survey? The latter will typically cost you about £600 - £800, but is MUCH more comprehensive.
As Rotaree says, a professional Surveyor preparing a full structural survey will err on the side of caution and itemise all sorts of stuff which is really quite trivial, so you need to know what you can ignore and what is significant. A lot of it will be standard stuff from a standard word processor template, anyway.
HOWEVER, if the price of the property is the issue, the longer the list of faults identified (no matter how trivial), the more leverage you will have to negotiate.
Maybe it's professional arrogance, but I would no more ask a 'friendly builder' to offer advice than I would ask a Quick-Fit fitter to give me an appraisal of a new high performance car I was thinking of buying.
Also, bear in mind that the informal opinion of Fred Bodgit the bricky is hardly likely to carry much weight if you are trying to negotiate the asking price down, whereas a written report by a Chartered Building Surveyor is difficult to argue with.
e-mail me off list if you want any more detailed advice: m.a.stuart@btinternet.com
I'm an Architect, but I've worked as a building surveyor in the past (the dividing line between the two professions is fairly blurred, anyway).
Are you thinking of the basic Building Society survey, or a full Structural Survey? The latter will typically cost you about £600 - £800, but is MUCH more comprehensive.
As Rotaree says, a professional Surveyor preparing a full structural survey will err on the side of caution and itemise all sorts of stuff which is really quite trivial, so you need to know what you can ignore and what is significant. A lot of it will be standard stuff from a standard word processor template, anyway.
HOWEVER, if the price of the property is the issue, the longer the list of faults identified (no matter how trivial), the more leverage you will have to negotiate.
Maybe it's professional arrogance, but I would no more ask a 'friendly builder' to offer advice than I would ask a Quick-Fit fitter to give me an appraisal of a new high performance car I was thinking of buying.
Also, bear in mind that the informal opinion of Fred Bodgit the bricky is hardly likely to carry much weight if you are trying to negotiate the asking price down, whereas a written report by a Chartered Building Surveyor is difficult to argue with.
e-mail me off list if you want any more detailed advice: m.a.stuart@btinternet.com
Not all builders are 'Fred Bodgit' and not all builders are unproffesional. There are plenty of builders who have far more practical knowledge of the realities of a building than any 'Theory man', and there are plenty of builders who also have proffesional qualifications. To use your analagy, not all mechanics are quick fit fitters there are plenty of craftsman and top quality engineers who you can trust to fix and advise you about your Cherished car.
>> Edited by mal on Thursday 20th November 08:28
>> Edited by mal on Thursday 20th November 08:30
>> Edited by mal on Thursday 20th November 08:28
>> Edited by mal on Thursday 20th November 08:30
I wouldn't trust a Surveyor as far as I could throw em - I've never had value for money from one yet. If you're buying the report is worthless, with so many caveats and get outs that something might've been missed I'd rather trust my own eyes, and if you're a seller its just used as a stick to beat you with, with no real grounding in fact
All IMHO of course.
All IMHO of course.
Mal, I agree that there are many good and professional tradesmen out there, but I have yet to come across any general builder who has the breadth of knowledge to advise with a high level of technical accuracy on a range of problems relating to different trades. Really good tradesmen tend to be specialists in a single trade and quite cheerfully accept that their knowledge of other fields is limited.
To pick up on your analogy of a cherished car, I am sure you wouldn't expect the same man to be able to provide you with a high quality respray, a full rewire, an interior retrim and an engine rebuild. Neither could an automotive engineer, of course, but he would be the best person to produce a buyer's report on the full breadth of such technical aspects if you were thinking of investing in an expensive classic sportscar.
I cannot lay bricks or hang a door, but I have many years of experience looking at good and bad brickwork, joinery, plumbing, electrics etc., etc. and understand the technology of building defects (which most builders do not, no matter how good they are at their particular trade). Most good building surveyor's will be even better than me at assessing defects and quality of workmanship - as I said, I am now an Architect and have always been biased more toward design than maintenance and remedial work, anyway.
Mondeoman: I would tend to agree with you that the majority of structural surveys are well padded with irrelevant information, to make the buyer think they are getting value for money, and covered by enough get-out clauses to ensure that you would be unlikely to be able to sue the surveyor if he had missed something. Most houses do not have any really *major* faults anyway, and those that do are often glaringly obvious to anyone with an IQ above single figures. A full structural survey is never the less useful as it will clearly identify the majority of even relatively minor problems. Most people buying a house these days mortgage themselves to the hilt and so don't have a lot of spare cash at first - the cost of putting right even minor faults can add up alarmingly quickly if there are a number of them.
Mark did say that he felt the house was overpriced and that there were a 'few areas that would need attention'. I would be astonished if a full survey did not provide enough leverage to knock several thousand off the asking price.
£750 full structural survey = £several K saving on the purchase price.
Never had value for money from a surveyor and the survey report is 'worthless'?
Go figure....
>> Edited by Martin Stuart on Thursday 20th November 20:11
To pick up on your analogy of a cherished car, I am sure you wouldn't expect the same man to be able to provide you with a high quality respray, a full rewire, an interior retrim and an engine rebuild. Neither could an automotive engineer, of course, but he would be the best person to produce a buyer's report on the full breadth of such technical aspects if you were thinking of investing in an expensive classic sportscar.
I cannot lay bricks or hang a door, but I have many years of experience looking at good and bad brickwork, joinery, plumbing, electrics etc., etc. and understand the technology of building defects (which most builders do not, no matter how good they are at their particular trade). Most good building surveyor's will be even better than me at assessing defects and quality of workmanship - as I said, I am now an Architect and have always been biased more toward design than maintenance and remedial work, anyway.
Mondeoman: I would tend to agree with you that the majority of structural surveys are well padded with irrelevant information, to make the buyer think they are getting value for money, and covered by enough get-out clauses to ensure that you would be unlikely to be able to sue the surveyor if he had missed something. Most houses do not have any really *major* faults anyway, and those that do are often glaringly obvious to anyone with an IQ above single figures. A full structural survey is never the less useful as it will clearly identify the majority of even relatively minor problems. Most people buying a house these days mortgage themselves to the hilt and so don't have a lot of spare cash at first - the cost of putting right even minor faults can add up alarmingly quickly if there are a number of them.
Mark did say that he felt the house was overpriced and that there were a 'few areas that would need attention'. I would be astonished if a full survey did not provide enough leverage to knock several thousand off the asking price.
£750 full structural survey = £several K saving on the purchase price.
Never had value for money from a surveyor and the survey report is 'worthless'?
Go figure....
>> Edited by Martin Stuart on Thursday 20th November 20:11
Martin, Not all builders comprise only of tradesman or consist of one particular trade. There are many builders and constructions companies run by people just as highly qualified as yourself.
I too am in the building industry and as you may have guessed, run a construction company, I am also proffesionally qualified and have spent many years dealing with defects and problems of all sorts of buildings including many heavily listed and historically important buildings. I am not a tradesman but I have spend several years, as I built up my business, working on site and believe me there is no substitute for practical experience. To me a proffesional training backed up with real practical experience will lead to a greater depth of knowledge.
I have also met many architects and building surveyors who have little or no practical knowledge or common sense when it comes to such matters.
What I am trying to say here is that you shouldnt tarnish a whole industry with a tainted brush, there is good and bad in all disciplines.
I would agree with your assesement of the structural survey as while a concur with the view that they contain many caveats and vague statements, They can be used to great effect in negotiating the price.
However I would say that if you are looking for a house to be your home and not a business then follow your heart and do not loose what you want for the sake of a few pounds. In the long run it will pay.
I too am in the building industry and as you may have guessed, run a construction company, I am also proffesionally qualified and have spent many years dealing with defects and problems of all sorts of buildings including many heavily listed and historically important buildings. I am not a tradesman but I have spend several years, as I built up my business, working on site and believe me there is no substitute for practical experience. To me a proffesional training backed up with real practical experience will lead to a greater depth of knowledge.
I have also met many architects and building surveyors who have little or no practical knowledge or common sense when it comes to such matters.
What I am trying to say here is that you shouldnt tarnish a whole industry with a tainted brush, there is good and bad in all disciplines.
I would agree with your assesement of the structural survey as while a concur with the view that they contain many caveats and vague statements, They can be used to great effect in negotiating the price.
However I would say that if you are looking for a house to be your home and not a business then follow your heart and do not loose what you want for the sake of a few pounds. In the long run it will pay.
Mal,
No offence intended - I have known a great many people working for contractors who have an excellent combination of practical experience and professional qualification (FWIIW I regard MCIOB as one of the most thorough and difficult to obtain professional qualifications in the industry, and equally would regard most *recently qualified* Architects as worse than useless because of their lack of practical experience).
The advice being given to Mark, however - to find a 'friendly builder' to give him informal advice - would most likely result in him going to a local small builder or one-man-band, which might end up being rather a lottery.
Also cynical though it may seem, a written report by a Chartered Surveyor is much more valuable as a tool to negotiate price than the verbal (or even written) opinion of a builder, even one with a professional qualification such as MCIOB.
No offence intended - I have known a great many people working for contractors who have an excellent combination of practical experience and professional qualification (FWIIW I regard MCIOB as one of the most thorough and difficult to obtain professional qualifications in the industry, and equally would regard most *recently qualified* Architects as worse than useless because of their lack of practical experience).
The advice being given to Mark, however - to find a 'friendly builder' to give him informal advice - would most likely result in him going to a local small builder or one-man-band, which might end up being rather a lottery.
Also cynical though it may seem, a written report by a Chartered Surveyor is much more valuable as a tool to negotiate price than the verbal (or even written) opinion of a builder, even one with a professional qualification such as MCIOB.
No offence taken and I wont say any more, other than I agree that a report from a Chartered Surveyor is an effective negotiating tool as I have said above, but it is even more effective when backed up by a quotation from a professional builder!
>> Edited by mal on Sunday 23 November 16:28
>> Edited by mal on Sunday 23 November 16:28
.Mark said:
Thanks for all the advice chaps, I think if we do decide to make a move on this place then initally I'll get a chap in our road to come and have a look - he's a builder and seems friendly too.
Surveyors reports are full of caveats etc for the simple reason that they have been sued to often amd of course the insurance companies demand the caveats to prevent the cases.
Doing a survey is fraught with dangers, often the purchaser does not want to pay the cost of doing the survey, the seller does not want their carpets lifed etc.
The solution is to read behind the lines and note which bits are important!
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