Moving my business up north including family
Discussion
Hello,
So quick background. I own a small construction company who has recently downsized slightly due to the economy so now only two of us and I sub contractor the other trades as and when. Used to have 6-8 lads of full time. I’m a carpenter by trade but can put my hand to almost anything apart from being buzzed or soaked.
I have a young family both kids currently under the age of 3 so in full time nursery due to my wife going back to work.
We currently have a house that is being finished renovated and hopefully will be worth north of 600+. Once sold we should walk away with around 350k. Which as you can imagine will give us some options.
So I would like your thoughts on the following;
We currently live down south and the return of flipping your own house would actually be quite good. So for example you could buy a 3-4 bed house/bungalow and spend 150k on it and walk away with 150-200k profit if done properly. My wife and I have been discussing for 5 years straight to flip one each year so that by end of year 5 we’d have a sizeable pot. Of around 1 million. This obviously doesn’t account for any work I do on the side, as I was hoping to do the property up as well as continue my business but on a slightly less scale so my bills are met. I currently earn around 5-10k a month gross. My business expenses and personal would all come out of that as well as tax, all within a ltd company.
Has anyone done something or had an experience with this method of growth building. Trust me I know how stressful this will be. Hence why I’m asking some opinions.
Once we got our pot the next plan would be to self fund our own developments projects, obviously have a base home for the family hopefully would be mortgage free, potentially only the renovation cost as a mortgage.
My parents have announced that they’re moving to the cots wolds and my sister is in wales and other sister is in London. So we would have no family network down here! Do builders charge the same as down south? What sort of markup to people make on builds or renovation projects up north?
Any advice is welcome
So quick background. I own a small construction company who has recently downsized slightly due to the economy so now only two of us and I sub contractor the other trades as and when. Used to have 6-8 lads of full time. I’m a carpenter by trade but can put my hand to almost anything apart from being buzzed or soaked.
I have a young family both kids currently under the age of 3 so in full time nursery due to my wife going back to work.
We currently have a house that is being finished renovated and hopefully will be worth north of 600+. Once sold we should walk away with around 350k. Which as you can imagine will give us some options.
So I would like your thoughts on the following;
We currently live down south and the return of flipping your own house would actually be quite good. So for example you could buy a 3-4 bed house/bungalow and spend 150k on it and walk away with 150-200k profit if done properly. My wife and I have been discussing for 5 years straight to flip one each year so that by end of year 5 we’d have a sizeable pot. Of around 1 million. This obviously doesn’t account for any work I do on the side, as I was hoping to do the property up as well as continue my business but on a slightly less scale so my bills are met. I currently earn around 5-10k a month gross. My business expenses and personal would all come out of that as well as tax, all within a ltd company.
Has anyone done something or had an experience with this method of growth building. Trust me I know how stressful this will be. Hence why I’m asking some opinions.
Once we got our pot the next plan would be to self fund our own developments projects, obviously have a base home for the family hopefully would be mortgage free, potentially only the renovation cost as a mortgage.
My parents have announced that they’re moving to the cots wolds and my sister is in wales and other sister is in London. So we would have no family network down here! Do builders charge the same as down south? What sort of markup to people make on builds or renovation projects up north?
Any advice is welcome
Flipping every two years is more realistic if you are planning to get planning permission for an extention and take advantage of the nil rate for capital gains by living in it before selling. Councils in my experience are glacial, sometimes worse than that
Living on site during a renovation is a nightmare and slows you down so a rental is probably a must. You'll also want to be in a location to get a good school with the age of your children. Not saying you couldn't do what you are planning, but life can get in the way.
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Living on site during a renovation is a nightmare and slows you down so a rental is probably a must. You'll also want to be in a location to get a good school with the age of your children. Not saying you couldn't do what you are planning, but life can get in the way.
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Is the extra money worth the hassle? Could you do this when the kids are older?
You earn a decent wage as is, you have a presumably nice house that's been renovated to a good standard. Why not stay, enjoy your kids being young, offer them a nice stable house to grow up in?
I am a builder and wouldn't want to live in a renovation for the next x amount of years!
You earn a decent wage as is, you have a presumably nice house that's been renovated to a good standard. Why not stay, enjoy your kids being young, offer them a nice stable house to grow up in?
I am a builder and wouldn't want to live in a renovation for the next x amount of years!
Where we currently live is quite desirable although like many towns or cities there’re always parts of any town are on the avoid scale.
For example I saw a 4 story town house last year that definitely needed some work. It was on the market for 350k, now obviously doing some research someone who had also bought and renovated one to a high standard was selling for 750k. The area was very desirable, mainly to 2nd home owners.
I think the problem I can see is I have a lot of connections down here currently which would help me a lot in the early stages but the only problem with living down south his if you live anywhere near the coast if you had a circle around you half of the radius is gone which means good builders heavily compete for work.
In regards to buying and flipping down here. I think our thoughts were if we moved our morgage to say a 350-450k project so our mortgage of 160k which is just about affordable for us to pay. Then we’d have 140k to spend on the build straight away. Obviously all the bespoke carpentry I would handle but I know enough contractors I.e plumbers, Sparkys and plasterers to get the job moving right away. The trick is I think is exploiting the permitted development instead of applying for huge extensions when you can just get a small set of drawings done and apply for lawful planning which you can achieve in 2 months.
I think my thoughts are and I battle this everyday is, I love my kids like any parent does but I want to give them a life I never had. I don’t want to be on the tools until the day I die, if I can help it. I think our thoughts were a small sacrifice today will improve all of our lives down the road. Like I’ve previously mentioned before I think my thoughts are that if interest rates continue to rise which gradually they’re and if they go back to what they were when my parents were kids 12% then people who are trying to keep up with the jones will loose their homes and not be ready for it. I’m just trying to be 2 steps ahead.
For example I saw a 4 story town house last year that definitely needed some work. It was on the market for 350k, now obviously doing some research someone who had also bought and renovated one to a high standard was selling for 750k. The area was very desirable, mainly to 2nd home owners.
I think the problem I can see is I have a lot of connections down here currently which would help me a lot in the early stages but the only problem with living down south his if you live anywhere near the coast if you had a circle around you half of the radius is gone which means good builders heavily compete for work.
In regards to buying and flipping down here. I think our thoughts were if we moved our morgage to say a 350-450k project so our mortgage of 160k which is just about affordable for us to pay. Then we’d have 140k to spend on the build straight away. Obviously all the bespoke carpentry I would handle but I know enough contractors I.e plumbers, Sparkys and plasterers to get the job moving right away. The trick is I think is exploiting the permitted development instead of applying for huge extensions when you can just get a small set of drawings done and apply for lawful planning which you can achieve in 2 months.
I think my thoughts are and I battle this everyday is, I love my kids like any parent does but I want to give them a life I never had. I don’t want to be on the tools until the day I die, if I can help it. I think our thoughts were a small sacrifice today will improve all of our lives down the road. Like I’ve previously mentioned before I think my thoughts are that if interest rates continue to rise which gradually they’re and if they go back to what they were when my parents were kids 12% then people who are trying to keep up with the jones will loose their homes and not be ready for it. I’m just trying to be 2 steps ahead.
I’m not a builder but did what you are thinking buying, renovating and flipping 3 properties in quite quick succession to make circa £600k net. We then combined that with a move west to buy a larger property outright. Which was another do-er upper.
We can only do specification / trade finding / decorating, way more difficult to find good trades outside out of a familiar area, in lower cost areas you might not get as much of a return etc etc.
I’d suggest thinking carefully about what properties, very well refurbished bungalows in good areas sell very well to wealthy retirees.
We can only do specification / trade finding / decorating, way more difficult to find good trades outside out of a familiar area, in lower cost areas you might not get as much of a return etc etc.
I’d suggest thinking carefully about what properties, very well refurbished bungalows in good areas sell very well to wealthy retirees.
Edited by bennno on Tuesday 12th November 07:49
HairyFootedMan said:
Where we currently live is quite desirable although like many towns or cities there’re always parts of any town are on the avoid scale.
For example I saw a 4 story town house last year that definitely needed some work. It was on the market for 350k, now obviously doing some research someone who had also bought and renovated one to a high standard was selling for 750k. The area was very desirable, mainly to 2nd home owners.
I think the problem I can see is I have a lot of connections down here currently which would help me a lot in the early stages but the only problem with living down south his if you live anywhere near the coast if you had a circle around you half of the radius is gone which means good builders heavily compete for work.
In regards to buying and flipping down here. I think our thoughts were if we moved our morgage to say a 350-450k project so our mortgage of 160k which is just about affordable for us to pay. Then we’d have 140k to spend on the build straight away. Obviously all the bespoke carpentry I would handle but I know enough contractors I.e plumbers, Sparkys and plasterers to get the job moving right away. The trick is I think is exploiting the permitted development instead of applying for huge extensions when you can just get a small set of drawings done and apply for lawful planning which you can achieve in 2 months.
I think my thoughts are and I battle this everyday is, I love my kids like any parent does but I want to give them a life I never had. I don’t want to be on the tools until the day I die, if I can help it. I think our thoughts were a small sacrifice today will improve all of our lives down the road. Like I’ve previously mentioned before I think my thoughts are that if interest rates continue to rise which gradually they’re and if they go back to what they were when my parents were kids 12% then people who are trying to keep up with the jones will loose their homes and not be ready for it. I’m just trying to be 2 steps ahead.
There is so much uncertainty in life I'd just keep it simple if I were you! Kids don't care about the stuff adults do, and who knows one bad move and you can loose everything! For example I saw a 4 story town house last year that definitely needed some work. It was on the market for 350k, now obviously doing some research someone who had also bought and renovated one to a high standard was selling for 750k. The area was very desirable, mainly to 2nd home owners.
I think the problem I can see is I have a lot of connections down here currently which would help me a lot in the early stages but the only problem with living down south his if you live anywhere near the coast if you had a circle around you half of the radius is gone which means good builders heavily compete for work.
In regards to buying and flipping down here. I think our thoughts were if we moved our morgage to say a 350-450k project so our mortgage of 160k which is just about affordable for us to pay. Then we’d have 140k to spend on the build straight away. Obviously all the bespoke carpentry I would handle but I know enough contractors I.e plumbers, Sparkys and plasterers to get the job moving right away. The trick is I think is exploiting the permitted development instead of applying for huge extensions when you can just get a small set of drawings done and apply for lawful planning which you can achieve in 2 months.
I think my thoughts are and I battle this everyday is, I love my kids like any parent does but I want to give them a life I never had. I don’t want to be on the tools until the day I die, if I can help it. I think our thoughts were a small sacrifice today will improve all of our lives down the road. Like I’ve previously mentioned before I think my thoughts are that if interest rates continue to rise which gradually they’re and if they go back to what they were when my parents were kids 12% then people who are trying to keep up with the jones will loose their homes and not be ready for it. I’m just trying to be 2 steps ahead.
I’ve done exactly what you’re planning.
You won’t make as much as you think on every flip.
It’s very tough. I ruined my health doing it. Plus the stress of working for the general public at the e same time as doing your own house up.
Mortgages are very expensive now especially development finance.
I’m still developing on the side but have taken a full time role to help get a mortgage and I struggle now with the physical stuff now.
East Yorkshire coast. Good trades are on £250 a day here working for the public. No where near London prices.
You won’t make as much as you think on every flip.
It’s very tough. I ruined my health doing it. Plus the stress of working for the general public at the e same time as doing your own house up.
Mortgages are very expensive now especially development finance.
I’m still developing on the side but have taken a full time role to help get a mortgage and I struggle now with the physical stuff now.
East Yorkshire coast. Good trades are on £250 a day here working for the public. No where near London prices.
lrdisco said:
I’ve done exactly what you’re planning.
You won’t make as much as you think on every flip.
It’s very tough. I ruined my health doing it. Plus the stress of working for the general public at the e same time as doing your own house up.
Mortgages are very expensive now especially development finance.
I’m still developing on the side but have taken a full time role to help get a mortgage and I struggle now with the physical stuff now.
East Yorkshire coast. Good trades are on £250 a day here working for the public. No where near London prices.
Where did you live before and was that 600k over 3 properties. Which may I add is brilliant so hats off to you and your partner. You won’t make as much as you think on every flip.
It’s very tough. I ruined my health doing it. Plus the stress of working for the general public at the e same time as doing your own house up.
Mortgages are very expensive now especially development finance.
I’m still developing on the side but have taken a full time role to help get a mortgage and I struggle now with the physical stuff now.
East Yorkshire coast. Good trades are on £250 a day here working for the public. No where near London prices.
To be honest bungalows are everywhere where we’re situated and some that need “a lot” of work are on the market for 180-200k but you could quite easily flip for 400+
LooneyTunes said:
Can you buy cash (proper cash, no mortgage)?
If not, you’ll have to figure out how you can source renovation projects against those who can (and hence can move quickly, avoid surveys, etc) and already have contacts in whatever region you choose.
It all depends on the project but yes like I said we’d have 350k in the house in equity plus any additional savings. So it’s certainly doable. Just depends on the project. If not, you’ll have to figure out how you can source renovation projects against those who can (and hence can move quickly, avoid surveys, etc) and already have contacts in whatever region you choose.
HairyFootedMan said:
It all depends on the project but yes like I said we’d have 350k in the house in equity plus any additional savings. So it’s certainly doable. Just depends on the project.
At the 350ish level, is there really enough market activity or margin? The lads that I know who renovate to flip are all either low end (auction/repo, quick turnaround and sell, often to landlords) or high end (large extensions, knockdown-rebuild, etc at high 6, into 7 figures).HairyFootedMan said:
Where did you live before and was that 600k over 3 properties. Which may I add is brilliant so hats off to you and your partner.
To be honest bungalows are everywhere where we’re situated and some that need “a lot” of work are on the market for 180-200k but you could quite easily flip for 400+
Berkshire area, but was run down Bungalows at £475-£550k which needed £80-£100k spending, plus one listed barn.To be honest bungalows are everywhere where we’re situated and some that need “a lot” of work are on the market for 180-200k but you could quite easily flip for 400+
Decent market for high quality refurbished / modernised properties.
There doesn’t need to be because, technically speaking each flip you’re building your pot. Where we’re the town was primarily for in its hay day for rich retirees but over the course of the last 50 years and the accessibility of being to fly abroad has left a lot of homes down here in disarray. Just looking on Rightmove yesterday I saw 8-10 within 15 miles. Of course ranging all over in pricing and not all of them would be 1st pick choice, some would work better than others of course.
The other benefit of as mentioned previously in this comment is that you would be building your pot so even if you only made 50k which honestly 100k-200k wouldn’t be out of reach. Your pot would then grow by 50k opening up more properties that could be available.
The other benefit of as mentioned previously in this comment is that you would be building your pot so even if you only made 50k which honestly 100k-200k wouldn’t be out of reach. Your pot would then grow by 50k opening up more properties that could be available.
"Up North" is just as vague as "Down South', can you imagine lumping Jaywick in with Kensington in a similar conversation?
You do have to take into consideration though that generally prices are lower and that sometimes the margins are not there to put serious money into a property.
In our local town you can still buy a livable flat for £20k. Try putting a new kitchen in that and trying to turn a profit.
You do have to take into consideration though that generally prices are lower and that sometimes the margins are not there to put serious money into a property.
In our local town you can still buy a livable flat for £20k. Try putting a new kitchen in that and trying to turn a profit.
Any ideas of where abouts up north you're wanting to move?
My brother and I have flipped two so far, first one done well a lot do to with the market though. We've kind of said the same about building bigger pot/ eventually new small developments etc. We're both Quantity Surveyors and family/ dad in construction which helps too.
We're on the Wirral (aka paradise paninsula) and with 350k cash, putting down a decent deposit for a run down detached, spending around 150k on it and making a bit i'd say is doable, key is the right house and the right area of course.
On our two so far we have done:
-170k purchase, spent 32k, sell 290k (peak covid market boom)
-175k purchase, spent 35k, sell 285k (complete layout change)
I'm now working away in Saudi however we've said on return, with a bit more cash, we'd like to do more/ go bigger. Its very time consuming though, we do a lot of the work ourselves and luckily know good trades for what we can't do. Also have to bare in mind its okay if its the only residence, once its the second property thats when the big taxes come in. Have a good look on rightmove for a general feel of areas, but be mindful one road to the next can have a big sway on what the ceiling price is. Theres two bed flats on the wirral for 750k+, and 50k-, all within 20 mins drive.
My brother and I have flipped two so far, first one done well a lot do to with the market though. We've kind of said the same about building bigger pot/ eventually new small developments etc. We're both Quantity Surveyors and family/ dad in construction which helps too.
We're on the Wirral (aka paradise paninsula) and with 350k cash, putting down a decent deposit for a run down detached, spending around 150k on it and making a bit i'd say is doable, key is the right house and the right area of course.
On our two so far we have done:
-170k purchase, spent 32k, sell 290k (peak covid market boom)
-175k purchase, spent 35k, sell 285k (complete layout change)
I'm now working away in Saudi however we've said on return, with a bit more cash, we'd like to do more/ go bigger. Its very time consuming though, we do a lot of the work ourselves and luckily know good trades for what we can't do. Also have to bare in mind its okay if its the only residence, once its the second property thats when the big taxes come in. Have a good look on rightmove for a general feel of areas, but be mindful one road to the next can have a big sway on what the ceiling price is. Theres two bed flats on the wirral for 750k+, and 50k-, all within 20 mins drive.
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