Becoming an expert witness
Discussion
As a lot on here will know i am in the paving and landscaping industry. It is hard, not only hard work but hard to impossible to get staff who for fill the criteria. (Same as a lot of business i guess).
Anyway.
Over the last few years there has been a rise in standards expected by customers. Now for me this is easy. No problem, i take pride in what i do and want to do better and better. But as i am sure you all know most tradesman do not give a f
k!
So there has become a new person in the industry.
The expert witness.
Theres a few and tbh they are no more of an expert than me, They do not appear to be any more clever, they just appear to have picked up on the bad work, the unhappy customers and the fact that they can take these cowboys to court and in a lot of cases get the entire job cost back!
Obviously these few keep this closely guarded. I will say they have positioned themselves as experts in the industry and appear everywhere. They endorse products (often poor ones ironically) and are well known.
So how do i do that? how do i learn what is necessary to be taken seriously in court.
From the outside as an expert myself it would be very very easy to pull most peoples work apart, even more so an obviously bad job.
One of these guys charges something like £700 a day plus travel.I don't know if that includes the court 'stuff' or just the visit and report.
He is always posting on instagram about going here there and everywhere and appears to be doing very well.
To me it looks like a nice way out of the physical labour and stress of it all.
This guy does have industry accreditation's and holds seminars etc. He's no idiot by any means but he's not less of an idiot than me.
I guess the hard bit is getting the judge to take my report seriously.
Anyway.
Over the last few years there has been a rise in standards expected by customers. Now for me this is easy. No problem, i take pride in what i do and want to do better and better. But as i am sure you all know most tradesman do not give a f
k! So there has become a new person in the industry.
The expert witness.
Theres a few and tbh they are no more of an expert than me, They do not appear to be any more clever, they just appear to have picked up on the bad work, the unhappy customers and the fact that they can take these cowboys to court and in a lot of cases get the entire job cost back!
Obviously these few keep this closely guarded. I will say they have positioned themselves as experts in the industry and appear everywhere. They endorse products (often poor ones ironically) and are well known.
So how do i do that? how do i learn what is necessary to be taken seriously in court.
From the outside as an expert myself it would be very very easy to pull most peoples work apart, even more so an obviously bad job.
One of these guys charges something like £700 a day plus travel.I don't know if that includes the court 'stuff' or just the visit and report.
He is always posting on instagram about going here there and everywhere and appears to be doing very well.
To me it looks like a nice way out of the physical labour and stress of it all.
This guy does have industry accreditation's and holds seminars etc. He's no idiot by any means but he's not less of an idiot than me.
I guess the hard bit is getting the judge to take my report seriously.
I do expert work.
You don’t need to be a ‘face’ as such, but you will need hefty Professional Indemnity insurance and be prepared to be cross examined in Court by a KC who will have been briefed by their own expert witness.
Bigger cases will involve your initial report about the issue, as things progress you will probably be furnished with the other experts report. The Court will be likely to ask both experts to narrow any disagreements and then submit a final report.
If it goes the whole way, you will have to appear in Court on a day that is no doubt highly disruptive to you and have a KC try and pick holes in your report and to make you contradict yourself. So you need to have an excellent memory and an understanding of all BS’s, industry research and manufacturers recommendations.
Ultimately whilst you are meant to be impartial and to help the Court, the Judges are well aware that the experts have two paymasters and whilst they are unlikely to be lying, their assumptions will be coloured, therefore in the judgements they will usually say ‘whilst Mr Expert 1 appear tend to be helping the Court, I felt that Expert 2 had a more thorough approach as demonstrated during cross examination and on that basis I preferred the evidence of Mr 2’ kind of thing.
If that sounds OK, you need to put your CV together, often good experience is better than acaedemia, I’ve seen lots of cases won in the basis of the expert not just having researched something, but having actual experience of having done it as well.
You then tap up the solicitors doing this type of work and wait for the phone to ring, there are also some expert ‘agencies’ that will take you.
Bearing in mind what a KC charges, I would charge the initial investigation at £1500 a day all in and actual court work at £250/hr or indeed double that. The lawyers won’t even blink at that.
Frankly I hate doing it and only take about one job in four, it takes up too much headspace leading up to cross examination. I can make the same money doing less stressful stuff.
You don’t need to be a ‘face’ as such, but you will need hefty Professional Indemnity insurance and be prepared to be cross examined in Court by a KC who will have been briefed by their own expert witness.
Bigger cases will involve your initial report about the issue, as things progress you will probably be furnished with the other experts report. The Court will be likely to ask both experts to narrow any disagreements and then submit a final report.
If it goes the whole way, you will have to appear in Court on a day that is no doubt highly disruptive to you and have a KC try and pick holes in your report and to make you contradict yourself. So you need to have an excellent memory and an understanding of all BS’s, industry research and manufacturers recommendations.
Ultimately whilst you are meant to be impartial and to help the Court, the Judges are well aware that the experts have two paymasters and whilst they are unlikely to be lying, their assumptions will be coloured, therefore in the judgements they will usually say ‘whilst Mr Expert 1 appear tend to be helping the Court, I felt that Expert 2 had a more thorough approach as demonstrated during cross examination and on that basis I preferred the evidence of Mr 2’ kind of thing.
If that sounds OK, you need to put your CV together, often good experience is better than acaedemia, I’ve seen lots of cases won in the basis of the expert not just having researched something, but having actual experience of having done it as well.
You then tap up the solicitors doing this type of work and wait for the phone to ring, there are also some expert ‘agencies’ that will take you.
Bearing in mind what a KC charges, I would charge the initial investigation at £1500 a day all in and actual court work at £250/hr or indeed double that. The lawyers won’t even blink at that.
Frankly I hate doing it and only take about one job in four, it takes up too much headspace leading up to cross examination. I can make the same money doing less stressful stuff.
m3jappa said:
To me it looks like a nice way out of the physical labour and stress of it all.
You may get out of the physical labour but forget about it as a way out of the stress.Whilst this sort of work is unlikely to see you being examined by a KC. If it got that far & it would need to to pay any sort of decent amount the idea of being examined by a KC is not something to look forward to unless you are very chilled & know your s
t inside out, upside down & back to front.I have been before the International Court of Arbitration for a $500m claim, you have very expensive (good) KCs for this money. It is not for the feint hearted. They will destroy the most competent person. They are good, very good.
As a side line may be worth doing, but really don;t see the market being big enough.
Like others say I'm not sure that Expert Witness work is a way out of stress.
I am increasingly being used as a Factual Witness. The training is expensive, and although our disputes are over relatively small amounts, the cumulative total to both sides is large, so I can look forward to KC's if I ever get into the witness box. It is stressful, it is disruptive, especially at the last minute as deadlines always change.
I've seen some expert witnesses get very rough-shod treatment by judges. It's not fun.
I am increasingly being used as a Factual Witness. The training is expensive, and although our disputes are over relatively small amounts, the cumulative total to both sides is large, so I can look forward to KC's if I ever get into the witness box. It is stressful, it is disruptive, especially at the last minute as deadlines always change.
I've seen some expert witnesses get very rough-shod treatment by judges. It's not fun.
surveyor said:
Like others say I'm not sure that Expert Witness work is a way out of stress.......
.....
...,.
........ It's not fun.
I've just been an expert witness for the first time......
...,.
........ It's not fun.
It involved a huge amount of preparatory work and my cross-examination by a KC was brutal.
However, it was a very interesting experience and was exceedingly well remunerated.
Would I do it again? - yes..
Would I want to do it on a regular basis? - Definitely not.
Thanks for all the replies and very interesting.
The type of work this guy does is residential driveways, patios, landscaping work. The majority of stuff is carried out to an obviously awful standard so i doubt he has too much trouble showing how bad it is.
He seems very very busy with it.
I don't really know how it works in terms of him being cross examined. I shouldn't imagine he has too much of a hard time proving his case as the work is that bad.
I also don't know what he does for his £700. does that include just a visit and report? or does it include court visits etc.
To me it looks very very easy to make a case against a lot of this work.
I guess a lot of it is out of the scope of small claims.
The type of work this guy does is residential driveways, patios, landscaping work. The majority of stuff is carried out to an obviously awful standard so i doubt he has too much trouble showing how bad it is.
He seems very very busy with it.
I don't really know how it works in terms of him being cross examined. I shouldn't imagine he has too much of a hard time proving his case as the work is that bad.
I also don't know what he does for his £700. does that include just a visit and report? or does it include court visits etc.
To me it looks very very easy to make a case against a lot of this work.
I guess a lot of it is out of the scope of small claims.
GT03ROB said:
you have very expensive (good) KCs for this money. It is not for the feint hearted. They will destroy the most competent person. They are good, very good..
I've attended the courts on/off for the best part of a decade both as being a summoned witness, and more recently as organisational representation. Having witness/experienced how even a bog standard barrister can destroy (I mean destroy) a witness with just one sentence, I find it hard to imagine anyone actively seeking 'work' to give evidence with the potential to be cross examined as a way to reduce 'stress'!!
Untill very recently I've had very naieve view of how the law works, the ability of a good legal team to totally change the narrative of a conversation with a few choice words is frankly both scary but also amazing to watch first hand.
Physical labour, even none physical labour usually has a defined end point, and most people will know how much work is involved. Giving evidence under oath, with potential for cross examination by some of the most articulate/intelligent people around......Out of choice I would only do it for the interlectual challenge. A day 'normal' day in the office is far less stressful!! Infact I have a good part of the Easter weekend blocked off to go do prep work for my next date in court.
Edited by gangzoom on Friday 29th March 07:14
Elderly said:
I've just been an expert witness for the first time.
It involved a huge amount of preparatory work and my cross-examination by a KC was brutal.
However, it was a very interesting experience and was exceedingly well remunerated.
Would I do it again? - yes..
Would I want to do it on a regular basis? - Definitely not.
My take on it is if you cannot beat them, join them. The intellectual challenge has far bigger pull for me than anything else. I would love to know if my brain is capable of delivering half the output needed to be even a barrister let alone a KC. Even to be just peripherally involved in a case that required engagement of high courts would be utterly fascinating.....as long as I have no actual responsibilities/stake in case It involved a huge amount of preparatory work and my cross-examination by a KC was brutal.
However, it was a very interesting experience and was exceedingly well remunerated.
Would I do it again? - yes..
Would I want to do it on a regular basis? - Definitely not.
. The thing is i am really unsure if the type of people you would be going against had anyone at all representing them.
From what i see what typically happens is something like this :
Someone has job done, say a landscaped garden.
Quality of work is disgraceful, lets just say things like paving above dpc, paving laid on dots and dabs, flooding.
Customer isn't happy. contractor won't put right, argument ensues. contractor adamant that theres nothing wrong.
Customer seeks out one of these expert witnesses.
Witness makes a visit, discovers blatantly shocking work makes the report.
At this stage i am not sure who it is taking the contractor to court? The customer i guess.
Report is shown in court and as the work is so blatantly bad the customer wins.
You would not believe just how low the standard of some work is. I really find it hard to believe there is some horrendous movie style cross examination that goes on. Even if there is its not hard to show why something is wrong.
But thats an assumption and i was always taught its wrong to assume
From what i see what typically happens is something like this :
Someone has job done, say a landscaped garden.
Quality of work is disgraceful, lets just say things like paving above dpc, paving laid on dots and dabs, flooding.
Customer isn't happy. contractor won't put right, argument ensues. contractor adamant that theres nothing wrong.
Customer seeks out one of these expert witnesses.
Witness makes a visit, discovers blatantly shocking work makes the report.
At this stage i am not sure who it is taking the contractor to court? The customer i guess.
Report is shown in court and as the work is so blatantly bad the customer wins.
You would not believe just how low the standard of some work is. I really find it hard to believe there is some horrendous movie style cross examination that goes on. Even if there is its not hard to show why something is wrong.
But thats an assumption and i was always taught its wrong to assume
I think one question you might face is "what makes you an Expert?"
I work with somebody who is an "Expert witness" - he actually gets asked to fly all over the world to give his opinion in various legal cases. He has about 50 years experience in his field of work, qualifications as long as your arm, the most senior Civil servant in his area of expertise, and was also President of his professional Institute. He's basically recognised and accepted by all his peers as an "expert"
In short - no Lawyer is going to challenge his bona fides.
I work with somebody who is an "Expert witness" - he actually gets asked to fly all over the world to give his opinion in various legal cases. He has about 50 years experience in his field of work, qualifications as long as your arm, the most senior Civil servant in his area of expertise, and was also President of his professional Institute. He's basically recognised and accepted by all his peers as an "expert"
In short - no Lawyer is going to challenge his bona fides.
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