Undertaking works for a large 'association'

[Hobo]

My wife has been asked to do a report, and provide training on how to do that report to quite a large trade association with a couple of thousand members.

The intention of the trade association is to produce and sell the report to its members, so my wife in essence would only be paid for the initial report/training, which would likely take her a few days and removes a massive amount of potential clients from her if she does this on a small one off charge, so isn't that attractive.

I'm guessing the agreement should be a lump sum with a commission fee basis, however as she would never be party to how many report the association sells, how would she know if she was being renumerated correctly ?

[Simpo Two]

Could your wife retain copyright and do the production of each report? That way she can sell each pack at £(insert suitable number) and be remunerated that way - no need to trust anyone to send in numbers.

Years ago I did a video-based training pack and simply got them made and sold them to my client in batches of 50 or 100 as required.

[trickywoo]

I don’t mean this to sound glib but she needs to price it as a one off for what it is worth not how long it is going to take.

The association is asking for help because they don’t have the expertise. If they can’t get it elsewhere they may well pay what seems a huge sum in hourly terms.

As you say it will take a few days I can’t see why the association won’t do it themselves going forward. For a bigger project setups like that are often happy to have a third party manage it for them long term but I from what you have said that doesn’t apply here.

If they don’t go for the upfront fee the royalty option is worth offering but with no existing relationship is a matter of trust on whether or not they will pay correctly.

[Blue One]

Agreed - charge an overall project fee for the job that makes it worth your wife undertaking it. If it is an annual report that needs updating each time they will hopefully come back to her each time to undertake the work.

Looking for copyright, or commission for this kind of work is probably not on the table.

[Simpo Two]

Blue One said:

Looking for copyright, or commission for this kind of work is probably not on the table.

She automatically has copyright. The fact someone is paying her for the work doesn't give them copyright, unless she chooses to assign it to them.

[LooneyTunes]

I've done work of a similar nature in the past but with:

1) Copyright expressly remaining with me; and
2) The report prominently featuring the branding I was using at the time, along with contact details.

Provided you get paid a sensible rate, these things can generate further revenue many years after their initial production.

[StevieBee]

trickywoo said:

I don’t mean this to sound glib but she needs to price it as a one off for what it is worth not how long it is going to take.

Very much this. This is a real-life example of the £1000 bill to hit a machine with a hammer analogy (£1 to hit the machine. £999 for knowing where to hit it and how hard).

Hobo said:

I'm guessing the agreement should be a lump sum with a commission fee basis, however as she would never be party to how many report the association sells, how would she know if she was being renumerated correctly ?

Back in the days of physical copies, she would arrange the printing and charge the client the cost of printing plus a margin, so she knew exactly how many copies were provided. You can do the same today by placing the digital document behind a paywall with password access and other measures. She could arrange this by white-labelling the platform, adding the association’s branding but retaining full control of the process and money.

But in truth, most organisations, particularly trade bodies, are generally trustworthy and trust still counts for a lot. But arrangements need to be properly documented from the off.

Hobo said:

removes a massive amount of potential clients from her if she does this

I’m not entirely sure I understand this. Are you saying that the work would be her essentially telling her clients how to do the work that she does? Or is it a case of the report lessening her future usefulness to those clients?

Simpo Two said:

Blue One said:

Looking for copyright, or commission for this kind of work is probably not on the table.

She automatically has copyright. The fact someone is paying her for the work doesn't give them copyright, unless she chooses to assign it to them.

Yep. Copyright is automatically assigned to the creator of original content.

Its usefulness however, is dependant upon her willingness to legally enforce it in the case of infringement. In this example, claiming infringement might be tricky in some cases. For example, it’s common practice for excerpts from documents to be used in others with the source referenced in that document. So setting out the extents and applying the level of scrutiny needed to identify infringement is not without challenge.

[Simpo Two]

StevieBee said:

Yep. Copyright is automatically assigned to the creator of original content.

Its usefulness however, is dependant upon her willingness to legally enforce it in the case of infringement. In this example, claiming infringement might be tricky in some cases. For example, it’s common practice for excerpts from documents to be used in others with the source referenced in that document. So setting out the extents and applying the level of scrutiny needed to identify infringement is not without challenge.

Agreed; it does depend on a degree of trust as you mentioned above. A sole trader is unlikely to take on a corporation over a copyright dispute I think (though if Mr Bates - not you! - can take on the PO maybe anything is possible!)

Copyright is a strange thing. It can be worth nothing, or millions.

[Hobo]

StevieBee said:

Hobo said:

removes a massive amount of potential clients from her if she does this

I’m not entirely sure I understand this. Are you saying that the work would be her essentially telling her clients how to do the work that she does? Or is it a case of the report lessening her future usefulness to those clients?

Basically, my wife undertakes these reports for individual companies which work in a specific sector, many of which are members of the association in question, and therefore as the association is looking to reach out to all its members directly, this could potentially significantly reduce her potential client base.

[trickywoo]

Hobo said:

Basically, my wife undertakes these reports for individual companies which work in a specific sector, many of which are members of the association in question, and therefore as the association is looking to reach out to all its members directly, this could potentially significantly reduce her potential client base.

That’s a bit of a bummer. I’ve been in a similar position and it’s a worry.

I think the options are she either doesn’t do any work for the association or tries for a long term role doing the report on their behalf. Depends whether or not they can do it with someone else giving advice or work it out themselves.

[Mr Whippy]

If the OPs wife does this work as bread and butter with an established client base, and the association has approached her, is it likely to be done elsewhere if she turns it down or can’t agree terms?

Is the risk here that the association pays once on a day rate costing and then sells it cheap and wide to all the existing clients?


I’ve always struggled with this type of work so usually I just quote higher on a fixed cost and stay away from all the copyright protections stuff as it could basically be impossible or prohibitively expensive to enforce.


Obviously if this is a major income stream in the balance it requires some serious consideration.

[Hobo]

It’s not her major income stream currently but is certainly something she is targeting and is doing more and more of.

She charges around 10k for a report, so the potential financial implications could be significant.

I think the copyright route and reduced rate for each one she does is the most viable route as both parties get the desired outcome, and I don’t think an association the size of this one would want to be caught in a copyright lawsuit.

[48k]

Hobo said:

StevieBee said:

Hobo said:

removes a massive amount of potential clients from her if she does this

I’m not entirely sure I understand this. Are you saying that the work would be her essentially telling her clients how to do the work that she does? Or is it a case of the report lessening her future usefulness to those clients?

Basically, my wife undertakes these reports for individual companies which work in a specific sector, many of which are members of the association in question, and therefore as the association is looking to reach out to all its members directly, this could potentially significantly reduce her potential client base.

Is the member list a secret? Why doesn't she just sell the reports herself to the members who aren't already her clients?