Attempted fraud
Discussion
Afternoon
Just after a bit of advice.
Had a booking for some wedding music for this weekend. All contracted. Cancellation terms are full payment if less than 30 days prior.
I got in touch with him for balance and final details last week. He replies saying he cancelled the booking months ago by email. We didn’t receive anything so (as we’ve done in the past) asked for proof of the email being sent in the form of a screenshot/photo of the email sent folder showing it.
He comes back later the same day with “screenshots”. All very badly photoshopped attempts. Obvious to anyone (wrong font/alignment/you can see outlines of pasted images etc).
I called him out on it (as politely as possible). No payment has been received still.
If it doesn’t turn up I’ll go down the small claims route (as done for similar events in the past). But for what I’d described as attempted fraud, I’d like to address this in the email I send him giving him a final chance to pay before court action, but is attempted fraud the right phrase to use legally speaking?
Thanks in advance
Just after a bit of advice.
Had a booking for some wedding music for this weekend. All contracted. Cancellation terms are full payment if less than 30 days prior.
I got in touch with him for balance and final details last week. He replies saying he cancelled the booking months ago by email. We didn’t receive anything so (as we’ve done in the past) asked for proof of the email being sent in the form of a screenshot/photo of the email sent folder showing it.
He comes back later the same day with “screenshots”. All very badly photoshopped attempts. Obvious to anyone (wrong font/alignment/you can see outlines of pasted images etc).
I called him out on it (as politely as possible). No payment has been received still.
If it doesn’t turn up I’ll go down the small claims route (as done for similar events in the past). But for what I’d described as attempted fraud, I’d like to address this in the email I send him giving him a final chance to pay before court action, but is attempted fraud the right phrase to use legally speaking?
Thanks in advance
First, is there any evidence that he saw and accepted the terms? You say you contacted him for the balance, so presumably he paid a deposit.
All you're doing is requesting payment in accordance with the terms he agreed to, and that if it's not received by X date then you'll commence proceedings. I wouldn't accuse him of fraud because that's emotive, just keep it factual and non-provocative.
From what you say it seems likely he forgot to cancel, hence the faked e-mails.
All you're doing is requesting payment in accordance with the terms he agreed to, and that if it's not received by X date then you'll commence proceedings. I wouldn't accuse him of fraud because that's emotive, just keep it factual and non-provocative.
From what you say it seems likely he forgot to cancel, hence the faked e-mails.
Simpo Two said:
First, is there any evidence that he saw and accepted the terms? You say you contacted him for the balance, so presumably he paid a deposit.
All you're doing is requesting payment in accordance with the terms he agreed to, and that if it's not received by X date then you'll commence proceedings. I wouldn't accuse him of fraud because that's emotive, just keep it factual and non-provocative.
From what you say it seems likely he forgot to cancel, hence the faked e-mails.
Yes- signed contractAll you're doing is requesting payment in accordance with the terms he agreed to, and that if it's not received by X date then you'll commence proceedings. I wouldn't accuse him of fraud because that's emotive, just keep it factual and non-provocative.
From what you say it seems likely he forgot to cancel, hence the faked e-mails.
Deposit paid.
Yes, you’re probably right. Best not to mention the word fraud, tempting as it is
elise2000 said:
clarkmagpie said:
I'd agree.
Then you can pull those faked documents out in court if needed.
ThanksThen you can pull those faked documents out in court if needed.
The only legal issue at play is that you've not received payment as per the terms of the contract that was agreed.
As obvious as the bodged emails may be, and whilst they can be used by you when submitting your case to the court, it is not for you to determine fraud. That would fall to the courts when reviewing his defence.
You can mention that the emails will be submitted to the court for their review but I wouldn't bandy around the the threat of fraud yourself because this pre-empts the legal process.
StevieBee said:
elise2000 said:
clarkmagpie said:
I'd agree.
Then you can pull those faked documents out in court if needed.
ThanksThen you can pull those faked documents out in court if needed.
The only legal issue at play is that you've not received payment as per the terms of the contract that was agreed.
As obvious as the bodged emails may be, and whilst they can be used by you when submitting your case to the court, it is not for you to determine fraud. That would fall to the courts when reviewing his defence.
You can mention that the emails will be submitted to the court for their review but I wouldn't bandy around the the threat of fraud yourself because this pre-empts the legal process.
JimmyConwayNW said:
elise2000 said:
Just an update- I took this to small claims court, and the client paid up two days before the deadline he had to reply to the court by. What a time waster!
I like this. My goal for next year is to take more people to court that mess us around.I’ve done it three times this year. Two were settled quickly like this, the 3rd is going to court in Dec so we’ll see what happens there.
Simpo Two said:
elise2000 said:
Just an update- I took this to small claims court, and the client paid up two days before the deadline he had to reply to the court by. What a time waster!
Not as much time wasted as if he'd defended though. You got a good result.Good result financially as he paid what he owed. Although the time and inconvenience won’t be reimbursed!
Steve H said:
Can I suggest that if you have had this come up three times in a year, your systems are not working very well.
You either need clearer terms or communication, or to pick better customers.
Less than 0.5% of customers, so not a high rate.You either need clearer terms or communication, or to pick better customers.
Terms are crystal clear. Communication is excellent. Not just through me, but also automated reminder emails regarding payment etc.
“Choose better customers”. By far the most stupid comment I’ve read in a while! How would you propose I vet potential customers?!
elise2000 said:
“Choose better customers”. By far the most stupid comment I’ve read in a while! How would you propose I vet potential customers?!
'Only good customers need apply'. 
One of mine seemed relatively normal until they got the goods, then started making up increasingly nonsensical reasons not to pay. Eventually they did pay - and it cost the dishonest fools over twice as much.
Simpo Two said:
elise2000 said:
“Choose better customers”. By far the most stupid comment I’ve read in a while! How would you propose I vet potential customers?!
'Only good customers need apply'. One of mine seemed relatively normal until they got the goods, then started making up increasingly nonsensical reasons not to pay. Eventually they did pay - and it cost the dishonest fools over twice as much.
Yep, it’s the dishonest part that annoys me the most with these people! If people are honest, even if you don’t agree with them, at least it seems like you’re having an adult conversation!
Steve H said:
On a thread where you seem to think it’s normal to need to sue your customers on a regular basis, I’m not sure thats true.
To be fair in his line of work you'd have to assume there's some (hopefully small) % of people who plan their wedding, contract with the relevant firms etc then the wedding falls through for whatever reason. Maybe even last minuteIn that scenario a guy might not be keen to pay for a wedding that didn't happen, maybe he's even heartbroken. So the OP may have to resort to the courts - seems it would be an unavoidable risk in his business.
From the 0.5% action rate I take it that the OP is dealing with around 600 clients per year so possibly deals with a wider range of events than just weddings but every business is different and you may have a point on the complications of that one. But I would still go with better comms, bigger deposits or keep looking for some other method rather than regular time consuming legal actions.
It’s good that ultimately he got paid though so I’ll leave it there
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It’s good that ultimately he got paid though so I’ll leave it there
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