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Do you ever get bored?
I've filled out a few tender and PQQ type applications over the years for NHS and local government work. I absolutely hate doing it.
Trying to write a 500 word answer as to what you would do to assist in the local community for a job that entailed replacing 150 fire alarm devices with a value of less than £10k. Tedious work at best IMO.
Second question. How often do you find that tender apps are written in such a way that only one supplier (usually the incumbent) can possibly qualify?
We used to find that quite often we (along with others) would fail on not having some piece of random certification that only the incumbent has. One example was an asbestos related certification provided by a particular training provider which although any other scheme or certification would have been equal or better than then the certification requested, the end client would not entertain them.
I've filled out a few tender and PQQ type applications over the years for NHS and local government work. I absolutely hate doing it.
Trying to write a 500 word answer as to what you would do to assist in the local community for a job that entailed replacing 150 fire alarm devices with a value of less than £10k. Tedious work at best IMO.
Second question. How often do you find that tender apps are written in such a way that only one supplier (usually the incumbent) can possibly qualify?
We used to find that quite often we (along with others) would fail on not having some piece of random certification that only the incumbent has. One example was an asbestos related certification provided by a particular training provider which although any other scheme or certification would have been equal or better than then the certification requested, the end client would not entertain them.
dci said:
Do you ever get bored?
I've filled out a few tender and PQQ type applications over the years for NHS and local government work. I absolutely hate doing it.
Trying to write a 500 word answer as to what you would do to assist in the local community for a job that entailed replacing 150 fire alarm devices with a value of less than £10k. Tedious work at best IMO.
Second question. How often do you find that tender apps are written in such a way that only one supplier (usually the incumbent) can possibly qualify?
We used to find that quite often we (along with others) would fail on not having some piece of random certification that only the incumbent has. One example was an asbestos related certification provided by a particular training provider which although any other scheme or certification would have been equal or better than then the certification requested, the end client would not entertain them.
Get bored, yes, sometimes where the questions are standard and need little thought to respond. I've filled out a few tender and PQQ type applications over the years for NHS and local government work. I absolutely hate doing it.
Trying to write a 500 word answer as to what you would do to assist in the local community for a job that entailed replacing 150 fire alarm devices with a value of less than £10k. Tedious work at best IMO.
Second question. How often do you find that tender apps are written in such a way that only one supplier (usually the incumbent) can possibly qualify?
We used to find that quite often we (along with others) would fail on not having some piece of random certification that only the incumbent has. One example was an asbestos related certification provided by a particular training provider which although any other scheme or certification would have been equal or better than then the certification requested, the end client would not entertain them.
As to the 500 words, move away from thinking what to write and think about "how will I write this so they give me maximum marks?"
Has a tender got someone's name on it? Yes in some cases. You know because of the way it is written. I have written tenders as a sales person, that's part of your job. If anything, it sends the signal out to the other bidders that it's already claimed. The procurement team need to be careful they don't open themselves up to challenge.
As for certification, that's part of the game. They probably know who else would bid and make sure there is something the others don't have. You could complain though with the clock ticking, your chances of getting the right answer is low to not happening. You could complain afterwards though it takes time and there are other contracts out there.
I have a new client that competes in training. There was a company presenting such great bids they were always getting onto the frameworks and then did not deliver. The procurement team found out which framework agreement they were not on and then checked those they wanted were! Guess which route that procurement went?
Edited by softtop on Tuesday 6th December 09:54
CheesecakeRunner said:
What’s the best way you’ve seen of re-using content, references, etc across bids? I’ve lost track of the amount I’ve done where we’ve been scrabbling around going “we’re sure we’ve done this before, anyone know about it?”
And why on earth do companies send out RFPs the week before Christmas with a return date of 4th Jan?
Personally, I write everything again. Experience shows that trying to shoehorn old content into a new response is time sapping, sometimes better to read it, absorb it and go again. Some bits are 'lift and shift' though you want to make sure the words are directly hitting the response. And why on earth do companies send out RFPs the week before Christmas with a return date of 4th Jan?
As for finding old content, think about key words or maybe take the question section and store in a file, then do a word search. Alternatively, you create an overview in one document and search that. If you are delivering a single trade or solution, most will be the same type of questions.
Meeten-5dulx said:
What industry do you work in…?
My previous company had a bid writer join the team on a contract and despite yes boing extremely knowledgeable getting ability into words was a different matter.
Energy industry in my case.
The end client drives the work, for me this is NHS, Housing Associations and Councils. The subject matter is less important when you have access to SMEs or Subject Matter Experts. The skill is knowing what gets you points rather than what words. I am yet to come across a market that is an issue because of knowledge. If you have a bid writer that couldn't write then he was in the wrong job!My previous company had a bid writer join the team on a contract and despite yes boing extremely knowledgeable getting ability into words was a different matter.
Energy industry in my case.
The other benefit of writing different bids is the cross skilling, a great idea in one industry could transfer to another, thereby giving you ideas for innovating that service.
It's never the market, it's the outcome, having the right technology is just an enabler, they also want to it to deliver value for money, that's the sell.
Have you ever been involved in a tender that was challenged - and was the challenge successful?
I've come close to doing this twice (in about 25 years, so not bad going) but didn't because I assumed it would be a waste of time. On at least one of them I wish I had (The score was well within the tolerance they themselves stipulated would require them to engage with the two closest tenderers to reassess - the reason we scored what we did was because they did not correctly read the schedule - their mistake. Had they done, we would have won hands down. The chief exec called to beg that I don't call it in because of the operational problems it would incur. Was promised favourable opportunities and what not. Found out (some time later) that they had not only commissioned the work but had started the project about a week before the notices went out!).
I've come close to doing this twice (in about 25 years, so not bad going) but didn't because I assumed it would be a waste of time. On at least one of them I wish I had (The score was well within the tolerance they themselves stipulated would require them to engage with the two closest tenderers to reassess - the reason we scored what we did was because they did not correctly read the schedule - their mistake. Had they done, we would have won hands down. The chief exec called to beg that I don't call it in because of the operational problems it would incur. Was promised favourable opportunities and what not. Found out (some time later) that they had not only commissioned the work but had started the project about a week before the notices went out!).
StevieBee said:
Have you ever been involved in a tender that was challenged - and was the challenge successful?
I've come close to doing this twice (in about 25 years, so not bad going) but didn't because I assumed it would be a waste of time. On at least one of them I wish I had (The score was well within the tolerance they themselves stipulated would require them to engage with the two closest tenderers to reassess - the reason we scored what we did was because they did not correctly read the schedule - their mistake. Had they done, we would have won hands down. The chief exec called to beg that I don't call it in because of the operational problems it would incur. Was promised favourable opportunities and what not. Found out (some time later) that they had not only commissioned the work but had started the project about a week before the notices went out!).
There's been a few iterations, firstly, receiving marks and feedback that showed why the marks were lower and we were not selected for a framework. Complained and pointed out the mistakes they made. Was then placed on the framework. I've come close to doing this twice (in about 25 years, so not bad going) but didn't because I assumed it would be a waste of time. On at least one of them I wish I had (The score was well within the tolerance they themselves stipulated would require them to engage with the two closest tenderers to reassess - the reason we scored what we did was because they did not correctly read the schedule - their mistake. Had they done, we would have won hands down. The chief exec called to beg that I don't call it in because of the operational problems it would incur. Was promised favourable opportunities and what not. Found out (some time later) that they had not only commissioned the work but had started the project about a week before the notices went out!).
Advised a client to get in touch with CCS, Crown Commercial Service as they have a 'mystery shopper' service. They are interested in when procurement do not run a process correctly.
Back to value versus effort. Smaller jobs are less worth challenging though have had a client that complained about the way the tender was written, clearly for another company. The process was re-run and they still awarded to the same company. It's back to how much effort and spend are you prepared to throw at it. Most Councils are scared of the spend, if you have deep pockets then challenge away.
softtop said:
This has the potential for being niche though it may help those wanting to win business in Public Sector.
Why do Central Gov depts write the tender to meet the criteria of the incumbent or the supplier they want (who helped write the tender - particularly strong with the Big 4) Or just invite everyone to join the framework (ie gloud) to make it seem fairer, but still to pick their golf course / ski buddies
Using FOI, we once lost because we didn’t put the answer in the right box even though our product was better quality (independent appraisal) and half the price of the incumbent, just one example of many
I’ve been in services and physical products and the Public Sector is often corrupt
Clearly if you disagree, please write a tender for us for a share of profit rather than fees (much more valuable based on the £ quoted in the tenders)
foliedouce said:
Why do Central Gov depts write the tender to meet the criteria of the incumbent or the supplier they want (who helped write the tender - particularly strong with the Big 4)
Or just invite everyone to join the framework (ie gloud) to make it seem fairer, but still to pick their golf course / ski buddies
Using FOI, we once lost because we didn’t put the answer in the right box even though our product was better quality (independent appraisal) and half the price of the incumbent, just one example of many
I’ve been in services and physical products and the Public Sector is often corrupt
Clearly if you disagree, please write a tender for us for a share of profit rather than fees (much more valuable based on the £ quoted in the tenders)
To start your thinking, some view a tender as the start of a process, I see it as the end. Or just invite everyone to join the framework (ie gloud) to make it seem fairer, but still to pick their golf course / ski buddies
Using FOI, we once lost because we didn’t put the answer in the right box even though our product was better quality (independent appraisal) and half the price of the incumbent, just one example of many
I’ve been in services and physical products and the Public Sector is often corrupt
Clearly if you disagree, please write a tender for us for a share of profit rather than fees (much more valuable based on the £ quoted in the tenders)
The big four will have been influencing the process as I have commented earlier. Not all the time though there is always a reason to change, do they like who they have now? How do they find a new partner? What activity have they carried out on market reviews?
G-Cloud - back to buddies - why would you risk a decision if you know someone you could trust?
Process- if you don't follow the process, then proportionality comes into play. You should question that a simple administrative error should not preclude you.
As for a share of profit, the whole view of how much the writer is in control comes into play, if you mess up on pricing, why should the writer take the hit?
Dan_1981 said:
Do you only do public sector, have you worked in private?
Yes, and do now. The difference is that you have more leeway, there's none of the clarification nonsense, the private sector say it's a tender, reality it's a glorified quote despite what it looks like. Engage and treat it as a true sales process despite what they say about engagement only via formal channels. The issue is the scoring, they won't have a process, I did a tender for a large water organisation and there was over 500 questions, the scoring said if they did not like an answer they could disqualify the bidder. How do you qualify that? Decide if you want to bid, no point fighting it as they don't need to even give that level of faux scoring process.
What’s your general opinion of procurement people in the public sector? Do they really add value?
I’ve come across far too many who treat the procurement of expensive technology equipment and solutions in exactly the same way they’d buy bog roll and biros, sending out ambiguous RFP’s and going straight to the lowest bidder who are only cheaper because elements of the solution are missing.
General procurement practice knowledge is very poor in my experience. I’ve had so many people say they discuss a solution in any meaningful way with you until after the tender process is completed. The result is either something so lacking in detail of what they actually need that the scoring - usually heavily price weighted - results in them getting something not fit for purpose; or they go out asking for something akin to a time machine and two unicorns for 30k. Then a big multinational will respond with a phone box and 2 horses for £100k and they’ll buy it - then b
h for the duration of the contract that they didn’t get what they wanted and it’s not fit for purpose.
I actually had a first today - a meeting with a customer where the procurement rep was the most sensible person around the table on the customers side, encouraging engagement to get to a solution and help them detail their requirements whilst being clear that they weren’t going to allow a supplier to write the tender for them.
I’ve come across far too many who treat the procurement of expensive technology equipment and solutions in exactly the same way they’d buy bog roll and biros, sending out ambiguous RFP’s and going straight to the lowest bidder who are only cheaper because elements of the solution are missing.
General procurement practice knowledge is very poor in my experience. I’ve had so many people say they discuss a solution in any meaningful way with you until after the tender process is completed. The result is either something so lacking in detail of what they actually need that the scoring - usually heavily price weighted - results in them getting something not fit for purpose; or they go out asking for something akin to a time machine and two unicorns for 30k. Then a big multinational will respond with a phone box and 2 horses for £100k and they’ll buy it - then b
h for the duration of the contract that they didn’t get what they wanted and it’s not fit for purpose.I actually had a first today - a meeting with a customer where the procurement rep was the most sensible person around the table on the customers side, encouraging engagement to get to a solution and help them detail their requirements whilst being clear that they weren’t going to allow a supplier to write the tender for them.
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