Limited company - archives?

[Simpo Two]

My grandfather started a haulage business between the wars and it traded until about 1970. I'm keen to find out more; would Companies House etc have archives of such things? Google isn't finding anything.

[22]

Might only give you start & end dates, or nothing at all....

https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your...

[Eric Mc]

Was the company wound up?

If so, when?

Companies House may still have paper archives but if the company was wound up before they started digitising the records, then the only way to get hold of old records would be to ask them for any paper records they might have.

[Simpo Two]

22 said:

Might only give you start & end dates, or nothing at all....

https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your...

Thanks, I'll have a look at that.

Eric Mc said:

Was the company wound up?

If so, when?

According to an older cousin, it was founded c.1925 and closed in 1975. I remember my grandmother posting out leaflets for it c.1970, but it was pretty dead in the water by then. It was called 'North British Transport'.

[Eric Mc]

That would be well before the era where records began to be stored in digital form. Companies House has always allowed personal visits to their offices to look at and copy information from their paper files. Back in "the old days" that was the only way to get hold of company data. As an office junior back in the 1970s, I was often packed off on the bus to make a trip to The Companies Office (Ireland's version of Companies House) to ask to see actual paper files for limited companies.

The firm I worked for was in Dublin so it was a short bus ride to The Companies Office - which was in Dublin Castle.

In the UK (not Scotland) all company files are kept at Companies House, which is in Cardiff - so not that easy to get to unless you are local to them. You can pay a local agent to do a physical file search for you if you don't fancy a trip to Wales.

[Simpo Two]

Eric Mc said:

That would be well before the era where records began to be stored in digital form. Companies House has always allowed personal visits to their offices to look at and copy information from their paper files.

Do they keep records that far back and will they dig them out if you send money? It's not worth travelling to London.

[Jobbo]

Have a look at the old Companies House webcheck. The up to date (still beta) Companies House online search doesn't bring up records of dissolved companies but Webcheck does: https://wck2.companieshouse.gov.uk//wcframe?name=a...
You'll need to make sure you change the check box next to the search to 'Dissolved names'.

Once you find and click on the company there is an 'Order Information For This Company' link. That takes you to a page with all of the documents available shown. You have to pay for them; they'll be filed on microfiche at Companies House so somebody there will manually print the pages and post or scan them to you, I assume.

[Dingu]

Simpo Two said:

It's not worth travelling to London.

Especially since it’s in Cardiff

[Eric Mc]

Jobbo said:

Have a look at the old Companies House webcheck. The up to date (still beta) Companies House online search doesn't bring up records of dissolved companies but Webcheck does: https://wck2.companieshouse.gov.uk//wcframe?name=a...
You'll need to make sure you change the check box next to the search to 'Dissolved names'.

Once you find and click on the company there is an 'Order Information For This Company' link. That takes you to a page with all of the documents available shown. You have to pay for them; they'll be filed on microfiche at Companies House so somebody there will manually print the pages and post or scan them to you, I assume.

Thre are search agents based in Cardiff who will do the work for you - for a fee, of course.

[Simpo Two]

Jobbo said:

Have a look at the old Companies House webcheck. The up to date (still beta) Companies House online search doesn't bring up records of dissolved companies but Webcheck does: https://wck2.companieshouse.gov.uk//wcframe?name=a...
You'll need to make sure you change the check box next to the search to 'Dissolved names'.

Once you find and click on the company there is an 'Order Information For This Company' link. That takes you to a page with all of the documents available shown. You have to pay for them; they'll be filed on microfiche at Companies House so somebody there will manually print the pages and post or scan them to you, I assume.

I get 'The following FAILURE message was generated: Your browser must accept cookies from companieshouse.gov.uk to be able to use WebCHeck. Please enable them before trying again.' Turning off Adblock doesn't help so I'll try the number later. Thanks for the link.

Dingu said:

Simpo Two said:

It's not worth travelling to London.

Especially since it’s in Cardiff

Yeah, just seeing if you're awake... Cardiff is about 1,000,000 miles away in Walesland so deffo not worth it.

Eric Mc said:

Thre are search agents based in Cardiff who will do the work for you - for a fee, of course.

[Jobbo]

Eric Mc said:

Thre are search agents based in Cardiff who will do the work for you - for a fee, of course.

Or you can do it yourself using the Webcheck service, rather than paying someone to tick a few boxes in an online form. It used to be a bit more involved when you had to order an envelope full of microfiches to be sent out but I don't think there's any added value in search agents these days.

Simpo Two, there is something about the Webcheck which does that; if you google in and go in through the link it should work: https://www.google.com/search?q=companies+house+we...

[Simpo Two]

Jobbo said:

Simpo Two, there is something about the Webcheck which does that; if you google in and go in through the link it should work: https://www.google.com/search?q=companies+house+we...

Aha that works! However the only 'North British Transport' listed was dissolved in 2006, and there are no dissolved companies before 2003. So I phoned them, and a nice man found 'North British Transport Co Ltd', number 00203918, dissolved in 1978. However he had no more info, and said to e-mail and ask for an 'archive DVD'.

[Jobbo]

That must be what microfiches come as now - good luck reading the negative images page by page!

[Simpo Two]

Jobbo said:

That must be what microfiches come as now - good luck reading the negative images page by page!

Hope it's not too expensive. Had a look on eBay for a used one, but no luck.

[Jobbo]

You won't need a microfiche reader I'm sure; the DVD will just have digitised versions of the images on the fiches.

[Eric Mc]

Jobbo said:

Eric Mc said:

Thre are search agents based in Cardiff who will do the work for you - for a fee, of course.

Or you can do it yourself using the Webcheck service, rather than paying someone to tick a few boxes in an online form. It used to be a bit more involved when you had to order an envelope full of microfiches to be sent out but I don't think there's any added value in search agents these days.

Simpo Two, there is something about the Webcheck which does that; if you google in and go in through the link it should work: https://www.google.com/search?q=companies+house+we...

It's decades since I ever had to make use of pre-digital Companies House records.

[Simpo Two]

Jobbo said:

You won't need a microfiche reader I'm sure; the DVD will just have digitised versions of the images on the fiches.

Well yes, I doubt a DVD would fit in the reader anyway

(I was looking for a used DVD not a used microfiche reader!)

[Simpo Two]

Update: Companies House have been very helpful and can transfer data such as Incorporation Documents, Resolution, Mortgages and Change of Name from microfiche to DVD for £20.

However they write: 'Accounts and Returns did not go onto fiche until 1975 before this they were only available on Paper. We only have what’s available on Microfiche now everything else has been destroyed.'

So if you want anything from before 1975, it's gone. So much history lost.

[Panamax]

Simpo Two said:

So if you want anything from before 1975, it's gone. So much history lost.

I'd hate to see inside your attic!

This thread has concisely and correctly summarised the Companies House archives and procedures.

One factoid about UK companies is the way the number of companies in existence was really quite modest in the early part of the 20th century and then escalated rapidly from about 1980, accelerating hard through the 1990s and on to today. In part, you can see this from the "company number". These numbers are the sole ongoing identifier of a company - the name can be changed but the number can't. Numbers are issued sequentially by Companies House so the lower the number, the older the company. For instance, here's a 1927 company "220584".

As of today there are about 4.6 million UK companies in ongoing existence (many more millions have been created and then wound up or dissolved). With a UK population of some 60m people that suggests one company for every 13 people - a staggering number!

[Simpo Two]

Panamax said:

For instance, here's a 1927 company "220584".

That fits with 'mine' 203918 being 1920s too, probably early. The company originally used Army surplus lorries from WW1 so it all fits.

Panamax said:

As of today there are about 4.6 million UK companies in ongoing existence (many more millions have been created and then wound up or dissolved). With a UK population of some 60m people that suggests one company for every 13 people - a staggering number!

Every Tom, Dick and Harry is a company director now, and as we all know the wrapper of a company can be used cynically by the dishonest. Other people just collect directorships, whether for money or ego I'm not sure. Perhaps we need two categories - Proper companies and Mickey Mouse companies


ETA And I wanted to see the invoice/s my grandfather sent to William Randolph Hearst

Edited by Simpo Two on Wednesday 30th November 13:11