um, can't condense it into topic!
Discussion
Hi Guys,
Hopefully the PH messive can help me with this one. It genuinely isn't for me (I'm still on maternity leave!)
I have a friend who is having a few issues at work, and has just found out that he is going to be dismessed next month on the grounds of being unfit for purpose - which for a start is a load of ball-cocks. The employer hasn't told him any of this, he found out from a friend of the employer (who he has noreason to disbelieve)
He also did this to another employee, around a year ago.
The story we have heard is that he is intending to take on a new member of staff to replace one who is leaving (which we knew anyway) but that to fund this guy's higher salary, he is going to dispose of my friend.
This guy was offered the position of technical director with an IT company, as a verbal agreement, and given a contract with the job title specified as Technical Director - the directorship papers have always been 'in the post'.
The employer - supposed to be business partner, but as afore mentioned, no directorship was ever signed - has always been 'odd' accusing this guy of not working hard enough, etc, despite the fact he is run off his feet and bringing in a fair amount of money to the company. Most of the time when he is not seen to be bringing in the cash, it is because he has been sorting the other guy's feck-ups out.
The 'employer' has run the company into an unknown amount of debt, and as a result, has caused problems with paying this guy.
In November, he paid late, leading to my friend having a large amount of bank charges, and in February, the pay cheque bounced. AFAIK, the contract states he will be paid at the end of the month - the employer says this means he can pay him by cheque on the last day of the month meaning it clears around the 4th - my friend's bills come out on the 1st of the month - the employer says my friend should move all his bill payment dates (at his own expense!), as this is the way all companies work (I've always been paid *by* the end of the month!)
My friend brought a product that he developed to the company, and allowed the employer to sell it on to customers. this product belongs to my friend, and has nothing to do with the employer - he doesn't even know how to work it (its a piece of software, so when my friend has to leave, the employer wont be able to remote administer it anymore, leaving clients up the creek!)
Also, my friend owns a server type thingy which is co-located in london - the company pays the co-location charges and in turn hosts back-ups, etc for its clients. The hardware belongs to my friend, so when he leaves he will obviously be taking it with him!
The employer is a bit dodgy - he has a thing for women, despite being married, and is a suspected alcoholic - something noted by other employees and even the employer's friends. He came on to my friend's wife while he was very drunk. She threw him out, and he has now been telling people that SHE came on to HIM and that he turned her down.
The employer doesn't know that any of this (the dismissal and the thing with his wife) has got back to my friend, as he doesn't realise the friend he is confiding in knows my friend.
Basically I am wanting some advice to pass on to him - what are his rights, etc. Is there any way he can prove that he is 'fit for purpose' or is it a case of what the employer says is taken as gospel?
Does he have any comeback against this guy for the bank charges incurred (he was paid in time for the end of the month in september, then the employer came up with this new 'rule' in november and claimed it had always been that way.
What are his rights regarding his product and his server? Can he literally just take them and leave? (obviously the ones he has sold now belong to the customers)
Any other comments?
Cheers guys,
WD*
Hopefully the PH messive can help me with this one. It genuinely isn't for me (I'm still on maternity leave!)
I have a friend who is having a few issues at work, and has just found out that he is going to be dismessed next month on the grounds of being unfit for purpose - which for a start is a load of ball-cocks. The employer hasn't told him any of this, he found out from a friend of the employer (who he has noreason to disbelieve)
He also did this to another employee, around a year ago.
The story we have heard is that he is intending to take on a new member of staff to replace one who is leaving (which we knew anyway) but that to fund this guy's higher salary, he is going to dispose of my friend.
This guy was offered the position of technical director with an IT company, as a verbal agreement, and given a contract with the job title specified as Technical Director - the directorship papers have always been 'in the post'.
The employer - supposed to be business partner, but as afore mentioned, no directorship was ever signed - has always been 'odd' accusing this guy of not working hard enough, etc, despite the fact he is run off his feet and bringing in a fair amount of money to the company. Most of the time when he is not seen to be bringing in the cash, it is because he has been sorting the other guy's feck-ups out.
The 'employer' has run the company into an unknown amount of debt, and as a result, has caused problems with paying this guy.
In November, he paid late, leading to my friend having a large amount of bank charges, and in February, the pay cheque bounced. AFAIK, the contract states he will be paid at the end of the month - the employer says this means he can pay him by cheque on the last day of the month meaning it clears around the 4th - my friend's bills come out on the 1st of the month - the employer says my friend should move all his bill payment dates (at his own expense!), as this is the way all companies work (I've always been paid *by* the end of the month!)
My friend brought a product that he developed to the company, and allowed the employer to sell it on to customers. this product belongs to my friend, and has nothing to do with the employer - he doesn't even know how to work it (its a piece of software, so when my friend has to leave, the employer wont be able to remote administer it anymore, leaving clients up the creek!)
Also, my friend owns a server type thingy which is co-located in london - the company pays the co-location charges and in turn hosts back-ups, etc for its clients. The hardware belongs to my friend, so when he leaves he will obviously be taking it with him!
The employer is a bit dodgy - he has a thing for women, despite being married, and is a suspected alcoholic - something noted by other employees and even the employer's friends. He came on to my friend's wife while he was very drunk. She threw him out, and he has now been telling people that SHE came on to HIM and that he turned her down.
The employer doesn't know that any of this (the dismissal and the thing with his wife) has got back to my friend, as he doesn't realise the friend he is confiding in knows my friend.
Basically I am wanting some advice to pass on to him - what are his rights, etc. Is there any way he can prove that he is 'fit for purpose' or is it a case of what the employer says is taken as gospel?
Does he have any comeback against this guy for the bank charges incurred (he was paid in time for the end of the month in september, then the employer came up with this new 'rule' in november and claimed it had always been that way.
What are his rights regarding his product and his server? Can he literally just take them and leave? (obviously the ones he has sold now belong to the customers)
Any other comments?
Cheers guys,
WD*
First point, does he really want to continue to work for the company?
Sounds like the employer will really be up shit creek when he takes his server and expertise with him so he's in a pretty strong bargaining position.
As for the money clearing around the 4th of each month surely that is your friends problem? As long as the payment is consistant (though perhaps it isn't) it makes no difference as long as it is at monthly intervals.
Sounds like the employer will really be up shit creek when he takes his server and expertise with him so he's in a pretty strong bargaining position.
As for the money clearing around the 4th of each month surely that is your friends problem? As long as the payment is consistant (though perhaps it isn't) it makes no difference as long as it is at monthly intervals.
Muncher said:
First point, does he really want to continue to work for the company?
Sounds like the employer will really be up shit creek when he takes his server and expertise with him so he's in a pretty strong bargaining position.
As for the money clearing around the 4th of each month surely that is your friends problem? As long as the payment is consistant (though perhaps it isn't) it makes no difference as long as it is at monthly intervals.
Problem is, his bills come out on the 1st of the month, some on the last day of the month. To fall in line with the 4th of the month, some would have to be paid twice out of one months pay cheque, which he can't afford to do.
He doesn't want to continue with the employer, especially not now, but hasn't got anything to go to yet - hence he can't afford to lose his job without something lined up.
>> Edited by WD* on Thursday 26th May 23:56
The guy isn't a bully as such, but he is a very good liar and an oscar deserving actor.
As for a third person - there are only two other staff, me (hence why I know so much) and a friend of my friend, so if things got nasty, the employer could say we were making it up and were in cahoots.
One thing I forgot, noone has had payslips since september/october time, nor have we received P60s. This guy has spoken to the NI people who said that it will be the employer they chase, but without payslips how can we prove that he didn't make us leave the company prior to now?
As for a third person - there are only two other staff, me (hence why I know so much) and a friend of my friend, so if things got nasty, the employer could say we were making it up and were in cahoots.
One thing I forgot, noone has had payslips since september/october time, nor have we received P60s. This guy has spoken to the NI people who said that it will be the employer they chase, but without payslips how can we prove that he didn't make us leave the company prior to now?
An alternative view. It sounds like many of the key assets here aren't really in the hands of the employer. Staff, equipment, product, goodwill all seem to be up for grabs. Your friend may hold more cards than he thinks.
Spend the next month keeping extra close to suppliers and customers, accidentally creating an archive of the address book and other useful information, a chat with the bank manager about a putative loan.
Perhaps he should spend this weekend at your house working out what he has, what he's missing, and how he can fill the gaps. It sounds to me like you'd rather work for (or with?) the other fellow anyway. In the midst of this problem, there might be an opportunity.
Spend the next month keeping extra close to suppliers and customers, accidentally creating an archive of the address book and other useful information, a chat with the bank manager about a putative loan.
Perhaps he should spend this weekend at your house working out what he has, what he's missing, and how he can fill the gaps. It sounds to me like you'd rather work for (or with?) the other fellow anyway. In the midst of this problem, there might be an opportunity.
Thanks for that Rich.
One advantage I/we have is that while this guy has a contract with a competition clause (he can't approach customers within a year), I don't have a contract, so preumably if I were to approach this company's clients there would be nothing the company could do? I could then sub-contract them out to this guy?
One advantage I/we have is that while this guy has a contract with a competition clause (he can't approach customers within a year), I don't have a contract, so preumably if I were to approach this company's clients there would be nothing the company could do? I could then sub-contract them out to this guy?
WD* said:
Thanks for that Rich.
One advantage I/we have is that while this guy has a contract with a competition clause (he can't approach customers within a year), I don't have a contract, so preumably if I were to approach this company's clients there would be nothing the company could do? I could then sub-contract them out to this guy?
Competition clauses in contracts are very hard to enforce, also reading your email I might suggest that if the position was for 'technical director' and the contract was worded as such and the paperwork to appoint him as a director has not been forthcoming then the contract might be null. Of course I might be talking rubbish.
As others have said, it looks like your friend has the technology and the customer relationships, they are therefore in a very strong position.
D
WD* said:
Thanks for that Rich.
One advantage I/we have is that while this guy has a contract with a competition clause (he can't approach customers within a year), I don't have a contract, so preumably if I were to approach this company's clients there would be nothing the company could do? I could then sub-contract them out to this guy?
Competition clauses where you have been sacked for incompetence (or the like) aren't exactly likely to be enforceable - if you are incompetent how can you be effectively be competition.
Discuss it with an employment lawyer they usually will give 1/2 hour advice for free, especially if the advice will make the likihood of winning a case stronger.
Right, my friend has luckily got a new job (with payrise 
) so things are looking better for him - thanbks for the advice so far guys 
Does anyone know where he will stand regarding the bank charges etc due to late and non-payment? Does he have any rights to claim them back from the company?
) so things are looking better for him - thanbks for the advice so far guys Does anyone know where he will stand regarding the bank charges etc due to late and non-payment? Does he have any rights to claim them back from the company?
WD* said:
Right, my friend has luckily got a new job (with payrise
Does anyone know where he will stand regarding the bank charges etc due to late and non-payment? Does he have any rights to claim them back from the company?
How large were the charges? He can ask for them, but whether it is worth litigating over is another matter entirely.
There's a lot here that I'll leave others to deal better with, but my view is your friend is being royally shafted. If he has the product and the sales, he can do it himself, solo, and be better off in every respect.
One point on bills and dates - I was able to get my mortgage payment moved from the 1st to the 15th just in one phone call (C&G), so no problem there.
One point on bills and dates - I was able to get my mortgage payment moved from the 1st to the 15th just in one phone call (C&G), so no problem there.
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