Planning Permission
Discussion
Hi Guys, thought i'd whack up a new topic RE: planning permission.
Those who read Large Scale Property development know what I want to get into.
What I really need is some info on how planning applications are judged, and approved.
What makes a site likely to be approved for development?
What makes a building plot undevelopable?
If its any further help to you I will be looking to start my Projects close to home... which is Kent
Thanks in advance.
Those who read Large Scale Property development know what I want to get into.
What I really need is some info on how planning applications are judged, and approved.
What makes a site likely to be approved for development?
What makes a building plot undevelopable?
If its any further help to you I will be looking to start my Projects close to home... which is Kent
Thanks in advance.
Up here in the North:
Developments usually have to be 'brownfield' sites, i.e. used previous for business of some type, but now surplus to that need.
Must be to current government guidelines on density, allow for affordable housing, car parking provision and serviceable for drainage, road access and other services.
Some areas are less likely to get permission than others but people more local to you will know which these are.
Hope this helps - as you can see I'm no expert but did sell some land last year to Redrow Homes for re-development.
Developments usually have to be 'brownfield' sites, i.e. used previous for business of some type, but now surplus to that need.
Must be to current government guidelines on density, allow for affordable housing, car parking provision and serviceable for drainage, road access and other services.
Some areas are less likely to get permission than others but people more local to you will know which these are.
Hope this helps - as you can see I'm no expert but did sell some land last year to Redrow Homes for re-development.
Davel said:
Up here in the North:
Developments usually have to be 'brownfield' sites, i.e. used previous for business of some type, but now surplus to that need.
Must be to current government guidelines on density, allow for affordable housing, car parking provision and serviceable for drainage, road access and other services.
Some areas are less likely to get permission than others but people more local to you will know which these are.
Hope this helps - as you can see I'm no expert but did sell some land last year to Redrow Homes for re-development.
Thanks very much, any tips on approaching the local council for info, I have a funny feeling there is a lot of red tape and beuraucracy (sp?) to get round and any pointers would be great
As Graham has said, you need to know, intimately, the 'local plan' for the area where you plan to develop. It is also worthwhile gaining a solid grounding in the 'Structure Plan' for the entire of the planning authority to give the local plan a context.
You then need to meticulously research previous applications for at least the period back to the last local/county council/unitary authority elections and analyse trends in grants/refusals.
Finally, you need to get to know the local planning officers, highways officers and - if listed or in a conservation area - conservation officers and get a feel for what they are likely to recommend to committee and what they will either reject under delegated authority or recommend for rejection.
You then need to meticulously research previous applications for at least the period back to the last local/county council/unitary authority elections and analyse trends in grants/refusals.
Finally, you need to get to know the local planning officers, highways officers and - if listed or in a conservation area - conservation officers and get a feel for what they are likely to recommend to committee and what they will either reject under delegated authority or recommend for rejection.
KingRichard said:
What I really need is some info on how planning applications are judged, and approved.
For a small site, you probably need a small (C5) manilla envelope with a small number of £10 notes, maybe £100 all in.
For a larger site, you might need a bigger (A5) envelope, and maybe £20 notes instead - say £500 total.
For a big site, a full A4 envelope stuffed with £50s will get you there.
Hope this helps.
To be absolutely honest with you Richard the sort of information you are seeking is why people invest significant amounts of time and indeed money in obtaining a qualification in town planning or indeed qualifying as a chartered surveyor specialising in planning and development. I did this and believe me it has paid dividends as frankly there is not an easy route to obtaining the knowledge and skills you will require to do this without relying on paying other peoples fee accounts for their professional services.
As a fag packet exercise the ability to work through some of the following points should get you a bit closer to ascertaining whether a project has got legs.
Is the site in question within a settlement boundary? This information can be found within the local plan available at the council offices or indeed ‘on line’
If not you can still meaningfully pursue an application if it sits within a settlement of twelve or more dwellings in the countryside.
Even then you can still make an application to have the land included into the local plan when it is next reviewed this though is really a strategic long term option and one which will take years
Whether or not the piece of land you are considering stands a chance could only really be decided by having a look at an OS plan as there really are far too many considerations to look at and could not be put down here practically. Yes you can go and ask the planners but from my experience they are often keen to see the back of you as they seem to work no more than 30 hours a week and are not really than concerned about meeting targets for creating new housing in their area. It may be best to engage the services of a good quality architect who has a good working relationship with them who could do some sketch layouts to lay under their little noses on your behalf. This is what I do.
What makes a plot undevelopable? Many things, but access requirements can be your first stumbling block beyond that it will be solely planning issues rather than ground conditions as frankly there is not much you can not overcome on that front.
Having ascertained that your site is worth pursuing and your architect has drawn a scheme up for you it is now ready to be submitted
Your application can be determined by either the ward member scheme or by planning committee.
If your application is deemed by the planning department as not being contentious they can use the ward member scheme where the local councillor who sits on the planning committee for the sites area can either rubber stamp an application or recommend it goes to committee as it is felt that it is contentious and requires closer scrutiny, this is not that common.
Once you go to committee you are truly in the lap of the gods as many times in the past applications I have had recommended for approval have been refused because local councillors have been busy gerrymandering rather than considering the intrinsic merit of the scheme. I have watched planning committee members hold the plans up the wrong way, change opinions for fun (or otherwise) and be far more concerned with gerrymandering their way into some votes than consider the intrinsic merits of the scheme.
If you get refused you can then appeal so you will need to engage the services of either a proper planning consultant or barrister who will then submit a case to the planning inspectorate which will be heard in much the same e as small claims court (round a table) where each side gives their case and the planning inspector who will normally have come from London (DOE) will go away and consider the evidence an a month or so later you will learn if you have been successful.
Now the fun really starts as in the last couple of years when I have won a couple of appeals I have had my car vandalised (only the now departed Subaru) and indeed had to take an injunction out to stop a local making threatening calls letters etc. Please believe me the cult of the NIMBY can become rather heavy duty in these matters.
Hope this might be of some assistance as it never ceases to amaze me how many experts there are on this subject down the pub, what they don’t know!
As a fag packet exercise the ability to work through some of the following points should get you a bit closer to ascertaining whether a project has got legs.
Is the site in question within a settlement boundary? This information can be found within the local plan available at the council offices or indeed ‘on line’
If not you can still meaningfully pursue an application if it sits within a settlement of twelve or more dwellings in the countryside.
Even then you can still make an application to have the land included into the local plan when it is next reviewed this though is really a strategic long term option and one which will take years
Whether or not the piece of land you are considering stands a chance could only really be decided by having a look at an OS plan as there really are far too many considerations to look at and could not be put down here practically. Yes you can go and ask the planners but from my experience they are often keen to see the back of you as they seem to work no more than 30 hours a week and are not really than concerned about meeting targets for creating new housing in their area. It may be best to engage the services of a good quality architect who has a good working relationship with them who could do some sketch layouts to lay under their little noses on your behalf. This is what I do.
What makes a plot undevelopable? Many things, but access requirements can be your first stumbling block beyond that it will be solely planning issues rather than ground conditions as frankly there is not much you can not overcome on that front.
Having ascertained that your site is worth pursuing and your architect has drawn a scheme up for you it is now ready to be submitted
Your application can be determined by either the ward member scheme or by planning committee.
If your application is deemed by the planning department as not being contentious they can use the ward member scheme where the local councillor who sits on the planning committee for the sites area can either rubber stamp an application or recommend it goes to committee as it is felt that it is contentious and requires closer scrutiny, this is not that common.
Once you go to committee you are truly in the lap of the gods as many times in the past applications I have had recommended for approval have been refused because local councillors have been busy gerrymandering rather than considering the intrinsic merit of the scheme. I have watched planning committee members hold the plans up the wrong way, change opinions for fun (or otherwise) and be far more concerned with gerrymandering their way into some votes than consider the intrinsic merits of the scheme.
If you get refused you can then appeal so you will need to engage the services of either a proper planning consultant or barrister who will then submit a case to the planning inspectorate which will be heard in much the same e as small claims court (round a table) where each side gives their case and the planning inspector who will normally have come from London (DOE) will go away and consider the evidence an a month or so later you will learn if you have been successful.
Now the fun really starts as in the last couple of years when I have won a couple of appeals I have had my car vandalised (only the now departed Subaru) and indeed had to take an injunction out to stop a local making threatening calls letters etc. Please believe me the cult of the NIMBY can become rather heavy duty in these matters.
Hope this might be of some assistance as it never ceases to amaze me how many experts there are on this subject down the pub, what they don’t know!
Most people or companies, who own an area of land, will possibly look at going down three routes, as well as checking out the possibilities with the local planning office:
1) They will apply for planning permission themselves and, if successful, build themselves or sell the land with planning permission. This clearly greatly increases the land value and makes it very desirable.
2) They may sign up with a company like Old Road Securities, who will look at the area and come up with a proposal taking into account all the guidelines. They will do all the work to secure planning permission and then market it on your behalf taking a percentage based fee. They will need to do a lot of work to earn this fee because a lot of questions will have to be answered for larger developments and there will almost certainly be a lot of local objectors to any scheme.
3) The other option is to talk to a local developer whether this is a smaller company for smaller plots, or a larger developer for bigger ones. They may then enter into an option, with you, to pay you an option fee to reserve the land for them, in the event of them getting acceptable planning approval. They will then talk to the various experts and come up with a scheme, which they will then base a planning application on. If successful, they then pay you the agreed market price of the land and the deal is compltet as far as you are concerned.
Which ever route you go down, have an experienced agent to protect your interests because many developers, having agreed a price with you, will look for reasons to discount the price that you thought you had secured in the first place.
Politics can play a major stumbling block. Despite having the recommendation of the planning department to support an application, local councillors can block a project for personal political gain, meaning an inquiry as the only way to take it further.
In our case the builders went through two of these before at last winning their case.
Oh and the personal abuse that I received through the press etc was unbelievable and much exaggerated, even though the application was made by the developer.
Everyone would love to sell land with planning approval but no one wants their neighbours to do so!
>> Edited by Davel on Monday 3rd January 19:00
1) They will apply for planning permission themselves and, if successful, build themselves or sell the land with planning permission. This clearly greatly increases the land value and makes it very desirable.
2) They may sign up with a company like Old Road Securities, who will look at the area and come up with a proposal taking into account all the guidelines. They will do all the work to secure planning permission and then market it on your behalf taking a percentage based fee. They will need to do a lot of work to earn this fee because a lot of questions will have to be answered for larger developments and there will almost certainly be a lot of local objectors to any scheme.
3) The other option is to talk to a local developer whether this is a smaller company for smaller plots, or a larger developer for bigger ones. They may then enter into an option, with you, to pay you an option fee to reserve the land for them, in the event of them getting acceptable planning approval. They will then talk to the various experts and come up with a scheme, which they will then base a planning application on. If successful, they then pay you the agreed market price of the land and the deal is compltet as far as you are concerned.
Which ever route you go down, have an experienced agent to protect your interests because many developers, having agreed a price with you, will look for reasons to discount the price that you thought you had secured in the first place.
Politics can play a major stumbling block. Despite having the recommendation of the planning department to support an application, local councillors can block a project for personal political gain, meaning an inquiry as the only way to take it further.
In our case the builders went through two of these before at last winning their case.
Oh and the personal abuse that I received through the press etc was unbelievable and much exaggerated, even though the application was made by the developer.
Everyone would love to sell land with planning approval but no one wants their neighbours to do so!
>> Edited by Davel on Monday 3rd January 19:00
How much do think this will cost you in this new venture - have you got the funds?
are you giving up your day job? if not could this be viewed as a conflict of interests with your day job? How would your boss feel if he found out?
How long/how much will you give to turn a profit?
Can you afford to lose all that you put in?
Just some basic questions you need to consider - which you may well have already.
Im sorry for being pessimistic, but you are looking to enter quite a specilaist area with no/little experience and I presume no qualifications - its still sounding like a get rich quick idea to me.
I bet you will be more secure and make more profit from setting up a decent estate agency working for yourself.
are you giving up your day job? if not could this be viewed as a conflict of interests with your day job? How would your boss feel if he found out?
How long/how much will you give to turn a profit?
Can you afford to lose all that you put in?
Just some basic questions you need to consider - which you may well have already.
Im sorry for being pessimistic, but you are looking to enter quite a specilaist area with no/little experience and I presume no qualifications - its still sounding like a get rich quick idea to me.
I bet you will be more secure and make more profit from setting up a decent estate agency working for yourself.
Vario-rob and Davel have both given excellent information.
Be aware that not only, as Vario-rob says, will you be up against a lot of people who are highly qualified and experienced in Town Planning, but you will be fighting against a lot of established developers who employ these people to find the land for them, and can afford to push through the long shots.
I work for one of the biggest developers in the country, and I find it plain scary the lengths they will go to to secure land and push through planning permissions.
Don't want to be negative, but it is a crowded field and it is difficult to get a foothold against the established developers.
If it were a guaranteed get rich quick scheme, don't you think we'd all be doing it?
Edited to add: if you are determined, reading the Government's Planning Policy Guidance (PPG) Notes will give you a reasonable overview, to start off with. PPG 3: Housing would be a good place to begin, if you want to look at residential development.
My advice...employ yourself some experts
>> Edited by Martin_S on Monday 3rd January 21:44
Be aware that not only, as Vario-rob says, will you be up against a lot of people who are highly qualified and experienced in Town Planning, but you will be fighting against a lot of established developers who employ these people to find the land for them, and can afford to push through the long shots.
I work for one of the biggest developers in the country, and I find it plain scary the lengths they will go to to secure land and push through planning permissions.
Don't want to be negative, but it is a crowded field and it is difficult to get a foothold against the established developers.
If it were a guaranteed get rich quick scheme, don't you think we'd all be doing it?
Edited to add: if you are determined, reading the Government's Planning Policy Guidance (PPG) Notes will give you a reasonable overview, to start off with. PPG 3: Housing would be a good place to begin, if you want to look at residential development.
My advice...employ yourself some experts
>> Edited by Martin_S on Monday 3rd January 21:44
As mentioned above the best starting point is looking at an OS map. Put a large one on your wall and mark on every recent development you can find - therefore identifying areas which are already ripe. As mentioned on your previous thread, try to fing that old petrol station, barn, derelict flats within the ripe area.
A meeting with the planning officer could be really helpful - at first just an introduction, don't try to baffle them with wacky ideals.
When you approach them seriously about a particular site you will need to project a professional, serious attitude. Therefore sketch proposals are essential to help them visualise what you are proposing. Your vague discription of thirteen mock tudor semis might not be as clear as a simple picture - no need for architects at this stage, just a visualiser.
Being in Kent at least you have the advantage of being in an area destined for expanded housing.
Good luck with the venture and don't forget your PH friends when everything turns out rosy
A meeting with the planning officer could be really helpful - at first just an introduction, don't try to baffle them with wacky ideals.
When you approach them seriously about a particular site you will need to project a professional, serious attitude. Therefore sketch proposals are essential to help them visualise what you are proposing. Your vague discription of thirteen mock tudor semis might not be as clear as a simple picture - no need for architects at this stage, just a visualiser.
Being in Kent at least you have the advantage of being in an area destined for expanded housing.
Good luck with the venture and don't forget your PH friends when everything turns out rosy
As mentioned above the best starting point is looking at an OS map. Put a large one on your wall and mark on every recent development you can find - therefore identifying areas which are already ripe. As mentioned on your previous thread, try to fing that old petrol station, barn, derelict flats within the ripe area.
A meeting with the planning officer could be really helpful - at first just an introduction, don't try to baffle them with wacky ideals.
When you approach them seriously about a particular site you will need to project a professional, serious attitude. Therefore sketch proposals are essential to help them visualise what you are proposing. Your vague discription of thirteen mock tudor semis might not be as clear as a simple picture - no need for architects at this stage, just a visualiser.
Being in Kent at least you have the advantage of being in an area destined for expanded housing.
Good luck with the venture and don't forget your PH friends when everything turns out rosy
A meeting with the planning officer could be really helpful - at first just an introduction, don't try to baffle them with wacky ideals.
When you approach them seriously about a particular site you will need to project a professional, serious attitude. Therefore sketch proposals are essential to help them visualise what you are proposing. Your vague discription of thirteen mock tudor semis might not be as clear as a simple picture - no need for architects at this stage, just a visualiser.
Being in Kent at least you have the advantage of being in an area destined for expanded housing.
Good luck with the venture and don't forget your PH friends when everything turns out rosy
All design, basically. Can line up engineering and house type detailing, though I would be using colleagues who specialise in these areas rather than doing the work myself.
My speciality (and day-to-day job)is housing layout design, design of individual house/flat types and submission for Planning and Building Regulations Approvals.
I don't get involved with land buying and, whilst I do get deeply involved with the planning process, I'm a big believer in employing a competent local Planning Consultant on particularly complex or contentious schemes. Apart from their specialist knowledge of the loopholes in Planning Law, they are often ex-Local Authority Principal Planning Officers, so they can very effectively tap into the Local Authority 'Old Boys' Network'!
My speciality (and day-to-day job)is housing layout design, design of individual house/flat types and submission for Planning and Building Regulations Approvals.
I don't get involved with land buying and, whilst I do get deeply involved with the planning process, I'm a big believer in employing a competent local Planning Consultant on particularly complex or contentious schemes. Apart from their specialist knowledge of the loopholes in Planning Law, they are often ex-Local Authority Principal Planning Officers, so they can very effectively tap into the Local Authority 'Old Boys' Network'!
Martin_S said:
All design, basically. Can line up engineering and house type detailing, though I would be using colleagues who specialise in these areas rather than doing the work myself.
My speciality (and day-to-day job)is housing layout design, design of individual house/flat types and submission for Planning and Building Regulations Approvals.
I don't get involved with land buying and, whilst I do get deeply involved with the planning process, I'm a big believer in employing a competent local Planning Consultant on particularly complex or contentious schemes. Apart from their specialist knowledge of the loopholes in Planning Law, they are often ex-Local Authority Principal Planning Officers, so they can very effectively tap into the Local Authority 'Old Boys' Network'!
Any chance we can meet? I was just thinking the very same thing, whilst doing a bit of brainstorming!
Can you put me in touch with a Planning consultant?
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