Web Databases - anyone involved?
Discussion
Looking for a bit of advice from someone who might be involved in web database design/implementation, e-commerce stuff, etc.
My idea is to build complete integrated database systems for small/medium sized businesses, to handle stock, orders, deliveries, customers, suppliers, etc. Directly linked to an e-commerce website, so that orders on the website feed directly into the database - in one integrated system.
I've worked with a number of small businesses on their IT infrastructure before, and have some database experience in dynamic websites and work-related stuff.
My question is whether there's a ready market among startup to medium-sized businesses for specialist database design, implementation, support etc, linked to their e-commerce site. May also be possible to integrate an online accounts package, with data fed partly from the database.
If so, what's the best way to market? I've got my first order, from a business I've been working with for 5 years - wondering whether this has the potential for a full-time work.
Also, what's the going rate?
>>> Edited by blueski on Tuesday 7th December 13:24
My idea is to build complete integrated database systems for small/medium sized businesses, to handle stock, orders, deliveries, customers, suppliers, etc. Directly linked to an e-commerce website, so that orders on the website feed directly into the database - in one integrated system.
I've worked with a number of small businesses on their IT infrastructure before, and have some database experience in dynamic websites and work-related stuff.
My question is whether there's a ready market among startup to medium-sized businesses for specialist database design, implementation, support etc, linked to their e-commerce site. May also be possible to integrate an online accounts package, with data fed partly from the database.
If so, what's the best way to market? I've got my first order, from a business I've been working with for 5 years - wondering whether this has the potential for a full-time work.
Also, what's the going rate?
>>> Edited by blueski on Tuesday 7th December 13:24
You could have a look on www.sourceforge.net to see what everyone else is up to.
Interesting idea but what makes you think you can do it better/cheaper than an off-the-shelf package ?
An simple all-in-one integrated package for the whole supply-chain, using a relational database would involve a lot of tables (hundreds) if done properly (full normalised, lookups, etc). For a large business, an applications such as SAP R/3, for example, uses tens of thousands of tables !
It may be better to research what's available on the market for small businesses and specialise in installing/configuring these applications.
An simple all-in-one integrated package for the whole supply-chain, using a relational database would involve a lot of tables (hundreds) if done properly (full normalised, lookups, etc). For a large business, an applications such as SAP R/3, for example, uses tens of thousands of tables !
It may be better to research what's available on the market for small businesses and specialise in installing/configuring these applications.
lunarscope said:
It may be better to research what's available on the market for small businesses and specialise in installing/configuring these applications.
Good point.
My thoughts so far have been to develop a system in PHP/MySQL which does the majority of what the average small/medium-sized business needs. Obviously nowhere near SAP, etc, but I think it's a different market - the small producers/ecommerce businesses I'm thinking of need more than an average Access template, but little advanced functionality.
Of course, it may be possible to extend and develop the system for particular clients, as they expand and demands/needs change.
Have taken a look on sourceforge etc, and there's defintely some interesting projects around.
A package has been around since 1995. It has been Europe's no.1 ecommerce solution for years, rated 95% Gold star ranking by one of the Internet Mags, selling hundreds of thousands of licenses
I used to work for the company some time ago. It now trades under a different brand: www.epages.de/ click on the UK flag and look under products and merchant. It is a proven product that has been used by all sizes of companies - currently operated by many large ISPs offering the solution on a rental basis.
I used to work for the company some time ago. It now trades under a different brand: www.epages.de/ click on the UK flag and look under products and merchant. It is a proven product that has been used by all sizes of companies - currently operated by many large ISPs offering the solution on a rental basis.
jacobyte said:
Microsoft's Commerce Server is used by many SMEs. You'd be best startig off with that, tweaking it for your requirements, and producing your own version of it (which you are allowed to do - source cod eis provided). Of course, SQL Server is best with it.
Thanks for the advice - but seems a very expensive option for SMEs? Apart from purchasing Commerce Server itself, they need Windows 2000 Server and Microsoft SQL Server 2000.
Would they not be better served by using the open source alternative - i.e. PHP, MySQL and Linux? OK, the open source packages around may not have all the functionality, but would do most or all of what a SME would require, and could be administered remotely (reducing the support cost further).
Intershop Merchant Edition used to cost about £3k and then development costs to customise it. Typical project costs were £15k to £50k. The Hosted edition was usually offered at about £500pcm + Development costs - usually a bit cheaper. Good things is, as so many businesses were using it, a lot of interfaces already exist. Ex: Sage, Pegasus Opera, SAP etc. I belive it also has an interface to automatically upload selected products to eBay.
blueski said:
Thanks for the advice - but seems a very expensive option for SMEs? Apart from purchasing Commerce Server itself, they need Windows 2000 Server and Microsoft SQL Server 2000.
As an SME I totally agree with this. I have managed to get a bespoke system built that will do everything I want for a lot less.
When I initially looked into it, the cheapest software I found was about £20,000 plus I would have to employ someone to tweak it. Result? Not much change from £35,000.
jazzybee said:
Intershop Merchant Edition used to cost about £3k and then development costs to customise it. Typical project costs were £15k to £50k. The Hosted edition was usually offered at about £500pcm + Development costs - usually a bit cheaper.
Thanks. I'm sure it's a great product - but if there's 3 of you currently selling 10 low profit margin widgets a day, without any ambitions to conquer the world, wouldn't a less sophisticated, lower cost solution be more appropriate (even with a fraction of the functionality)?
You might want a database that each employee can access simultaneously, connected to your e-commerce website, with an integrated basic accounts accounts package - but most of the more advanced features of high end products would go unused.
Say you could buy a networked Linux box with a decent (albeit fairly basic) MySQL/PHP web browser based interface, customised somewhat for your business, for around £3 to £5k, plus support (and no licenses to buy!).
Would this not be a tempting proposition for small businesses?
>> Edited by blueski on Tuesday 7th December 17:07
The problem is that just coz a business is 1% the size of a big business doesn't it mean its processes are 1% as complicated as the big business. IT ends up being disproportionately expensive for small businesses. 'Tis a difficult nut to crack. Fully hosted, highly modular, delivery to provide lots of small wins, cake for all!
blueski said:
jazzybee said:
Intershop Merchant Edition used to cost about £3k and then development costs to customise it. Typical project costs were £15k to £50k. The Hosted edition was usually offered at about £500pcm + Development costs - usually a bit cheaper.
Thanks. I'm sure it's a great product - but if there's 3 of you currently selling 10 low profit margin widgets a day, without any ambitions to conquer the world, wouldn't a less sophisticated, lower cost solution be more appropriate (even with a fraction of the functionality)?
You might want a database that each employee can access simultaneously, connected to your e-commerce website, with an integrated basic accounts accounts package - but most of the more advanced features of high end products would go unused.
Say you could buy a networked Linux box with a decent (albeit fairly basic) MySQL/PHP web browser based interface, customised somewhat for your business, for around £3 to £5k, plus support (and no licenses to buy!).
Would this not be a tempting proposition for small businesses?
>> Edited by blueski on Tuesday 7th December 17:07
Absolutely right. Basically the reason 'ePages' product was introduced as a mass hosted solution. starting from a simple self build solution costing from £20 pm to their Hosted solution which costs say £5-10k + £500pm to Merchant at £15-50k build about £1000pm (thats what I remember for 3 years ago anyway.
Take a look at BT's cheaper solution: gives you an idea of how these sorts of solutions can be marketed.
<a href="http://www.btbroadbandoffice.com/internetapplications/sellonline">www.btbroadbandoffice.com/internetapplications/sellonline</a>
>> Edited by jazzybee on Tuesday 7th December 20:29
>> Edited by jazzybee on Tuesday 7th December 20:31
ATG said:
The problem is that just coz a business is 1% the size of a big business doesn't it mean its processes are 1% as complicated as the big business. IT ends up being disproportionately expensive for small businesses. 'Tis a difficult nut to crack. Fully hosted, highly modular, delivery to provide lots of small wins, cake for all!
I don't know if your aware that 'ATG' Dynamo was the eCommrce solution that really dominated the enterprise market from around late 1999 - it really gave my old company a hard time...
blueski said:
Intershop Merchant Edition used to cost about £3k and then development costs to customise it. Typical project costs were £15k to £50k. The Hosted edition was usually offered at about £500pcm + Development costs - usually a bit cheaper.
Thanks. I'm sure it's a great product - but if there's 3 of you currently selling 10 low profit margin widgets a day, without any ambitions to conquer the world, wouldn't a less sophisticated, lower cost solution be more appropriate (even with a fraction of the functionality)?
You might want a database that each employee can access simultaneously, connected to your e-commerce website, with an integrated basic accounts accounts package - but most of the more advanced features of high end products would go unused.
Say you could buy a networked Linux box with a decent (albeit fairly basic) MySQL/PHP web browser based interface, customised somewhat for your business, for around £3 to £5k, plus support (and no licenses to buy!).
Would this not be a tempting proposition for small businesses?
>> Edited by blueski on Tuesday 7th December 17:07
This sort of sounds like something I might need in the future for my Small business. Only problem is I think I need it, but I don't know I need it or whether it will suit my business. As good a catch22 situation as you can get.
I know I require a MySQL database to make editing the details of our 138+ designs, 10 fabrics, 16 colours and 23 sizes, as modifying our cart softwares .csv files manually takes an age (Clickcart-pro can be run with a MySQL database, I just don't know how to switch over or what to do, just yet). I also know know I want to implement "mod rewrite" so that my cgi webpages look like static html pages.
The other problem is money of course :-)
jazzybee said:
Absolutely right. Basically the reason 'ePages' product was introduced as a mass hosted solution. starting from a simple self build solution costing from £20 pm to their Hosted solution which costs say £5-10k + £500pm to Merchant at £15-50k build about £1000pm (thats what I remember for 3 years ago anyway.
Take a look at BT's cheaper solution: gives you an idea of how these sorts of solutions can be marketed.
<a href="http://www.btbroadbandoffice.com/internetapplications/sellonline"><a href="http://www.btbroadbandoffice.com/internetapplications/sellonline">www.btbroadbandoffice.com/internetapplications/sellonline</a></a>
Thanks, much appreciated. I guess the ecommerce aspect is only one component of the system (although probably the major one)... a locally hosted solution could also encompass entry of telephone orders into the same database, and the (very basic) hardware could double up as a file server, intranet server, print server, broadband hub, firewall, backup solution, etc.
Once installed, it could be administered and updated remotely in the same way as a standard hosted solution.
blueski said:
Absolutely right. Basically the reason 'ePages' product was introduced as a mass hosted solution. starting from a simple self build solution costing from £20 pm to their Hosted solution which costs say £5-10k + £500pm to Merchant at £15-50k build about £1000pm (thats what I remember for 3 years ago anyway.
Take a look at BT's cheaper solution: gives you an idea of how these sorts of solutions can be marketed.
<a href="http://www.btbroadbandoffice.com/internetapplications/sellonline"><a href="http://www.btbroadbandoffice.com/internetapplications/sellonline"><a href="http://www.btbroadbandoffice.com/internetapplications/sellonline">www.btbroadbandoffice.com/internetapplications/sellonline</a></a></a>
Thanks, much appreciated. I guess the ecommerce aspect is only one component of the system (although probably the major one)... a locally hosted solution could also encompass entry of telephone orders into the same database, and the (very basic) hardware could double up as a file server, intranet server, print server, broadband hub, firewall, backup solution, etc.
Once installed, it could be administered and updated remotely in the same way as a standard hosted solution.
The ideal solution would be the merchant edition which you can host locally. However, most SME companies don't want to have to do that as it is an additional IT overhead and requires a more technically capable person than a basic network IT person (databases, backup etc.)
The hosted contracts tend to include all the maintenance as well, so rolling backups of orders at the hosts site. Get the servers back up and running quickly. Even the cheap epages solution (£20 pm) has a basic stock management solution and an order management console where you can pull off orders etc. When I was there, I don't think you could actually change the status to show the goods as shipped, but only as 'processed' but I think it was added later. You also have a set of visual tools to check which products are popular, which catalogues and products are most viewed etc. Most small businesses using these type of application actually use them for phone orders anyway. That way they can use their online credit card facility - for new business this may be difficult to have arranged seperately.
jazzybee said:
The ideal solution would be the merchant edition which you can host locally.
...but which small startups are ready to spend £15-50k (plus £1000/month)? That's a major outlay for most SME's.
The hosted edition sounds remarkably good value, especially if it includes creditcard processing. But I still wonder if a tailormade open source system (with no licenses to pay), locally hosted with all the additional benefits (e.g. intranet server, file server, print server, etc etc) would be of interest to small businesses.
Apart from anything else, someone who doesn't know much about IT may feel more comfortable buying a physical "box", rather than an abstract hosted account.
Just my impression - so far unsupported by evidence...
blueski said:
But I still wonder if a tailormade open source system (with no licenses to pay), locally hosted with all the additional benefits (e.g. intranet server, file server, print server, etc etc) would be of interest to small businesses.
Apart from anything else, someone who doesn't know much about IT may feel more comfortable buying a physical "box", rather than an abstract hosted account.
Just my impression - so far unsupported by evidence...
I used to belive the same, but I found most small business owners a lot less technology savvy than I thought, and see another server as another cost/risk which they do not want - Unless they have an underemployed IT person. Most businessmen simply want to run their businesses more efficiently, and sell more. Another server means greater capital outlay, and either chasing software support from a number of suppliers or trying to negotiate with their stroppy IT bod. I think the market for hosted commercial applications is there now thanks to the relative availability and speed of broadband connections. It may be initially percieved as costing more - but when you take into account hosting and support issues, I think most will see sense and take the hosted option.
jazzybee said:
I think most will see sense and take the hosted option.
Take your point - but businesses in the areas I'm thinking of targetting are eligible for government grants, giving them 40% off IT hardware.
Even if the hosted option make may better long-term business sense, I think the people rubber-stamping the grant applications are more likely to fund a physical piece of hardware than hosted accounts.
The people administering the grants are remarkably (if not suprisingly) ignorant about business IT, and I think would sign off a "new ecommerce/database server" without much thought.
Gassing Station | Business | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff