Bespoke Applications
Discussion
Thought I would post this in here as I respect the opinion of PH entrepenuers.
Do the assembled believe that the bespoke software market for the SME sector is saturated?
Do people spec systems for themselves anymore or is it purely a package driven marketplace?
Its looking like redundancy may be on the horizon so I am looking for options...
Do the assembled believe that the bespoke software market for the SME sector is saturated?
Do people spec systems for themselves anymore or is it purely a package driven marketplace?
Its looking like redundancy may be on the horizon so I am looking for options...
PetrolTed said:
I bet there are all sorts of businesses that would like some bespoke software but are scared of the cost and risk.
I think Ted is right - there are a few things we would like but won't even bother picking the phone up as we know (or think we do!) it will cost a fortune so we just continue to do things the same way even if life would be better with a nice peice of software that did the hard work for us.
Matt.
We do a package which does Timesheets and Holidays for businesses. It also does all the "Effort Data Collection" side of Project Management too.
We've found business really *want* a bespoke application - BUT
1) Won't buy one.
2) Their MD won't let them buy one.
3) Don't want to pay for one.
So what we do is offer a package with bespoke additions/services so they have to compromise a bit on the functionality but nowhere near as much as if they bought something totally off the shelf.
The development effort in the highly configurable product (with plug-in areas) was feckin' expensive though.
What can you do, what do you want to do? Are you totally technical or in the Sales side of things at all?
We do a package which does Timesheets and Holidays for businesses. It also does all the "Effort Data Collection" side of Project Management too.
We've found business really *want* a bespoke application - BUT
1) Won't buy one.
2) Their MD won't let them buy one.
3) Don't want to pay for one.
So what we do is offer a package with bespoke additions/services so they have to compromise a bit on the functionality but nowhere near as much as if they bought something totally off the shelf.
The development effort in the highly configurable product (with plug-in areas) was feckin' expensive though.
What can you do, what do you want to do? Are you totally technical or in the Sales side of things at all?
The trouble is that even a program as trivial as the "Hello World" program takes about a week to write once you take into account requirements capture, design, development, testing, acceptance, etc.
Based on a 37.5 hour week and taking a conservative average of, say, £40 ph + VAT, you're talking £1500 + VAT
So I can fully sympathise with small companies being reticent.
Much as I'd like to say "no, it's brilliant and I'll happily do it for you" I have to concur that there are some major risks and costs involved.
Based on a 37.5 hour week and taking a conservative average of, say, £40 ph + VAT, you're talking £1500 + VAT
So I can fully sympathise with small companies being reticent.
Much as I'd like to say "no, it's brilliant and I'll happily do it for you" I have to concur that there are some major risks and costs involved.
PetrolTed said:
I guess the only way out of the situation for small businesses is for them to request the application at a 'reasonable' rate/fixed cost, s/w bloke writes it but retains the IPR to it and then flogs it elsewhere to make it truly viable. Is that done much?
Trouble with that is the s/w bloke then needs to do sales and marketing to be able to make his 'extra' return on the development - but thats a whole new skill set.
Or start a real company and start hiring sales - but unless you're looking at commission-only, you start a real cash-burn until you get revenue going.
Well, at 2.45pm its looking like my fate will be decided.
Don - I am a CASE tool developer by trade so consequently functionally rich software that appears quickly is somewhat of a core skill. I have also worked in customer facing roles in a technical capacity (technical project management) but never sales (which I have oftened fancied it has to be said).
I am thinking currently about fixed price bespoke apps for SME.
Depending on the application breadth and whether its commercially viable then keeping hold of the IPR is not something that concerns me really.
Basically the tool I use empowers me to deliver to a huge number of platforms natively so I am thinking that this has to be of use to someone somewhere and after contracting collapsed 3 years as a permie has put me off doing another stint of this for some time.
Don - I am a CASE tool developer by trade so consequently functionally rich software that appears quickly is somewhat of a core skill. I have also worked in customer facing roles in a technical capacity (technical project management) but never sales (which I have oftened fancied it has to be said).
I am thinking currently about fixed price bespoke apps for SME.
Depending on the application breadth and whether its commercially viable then keeping hold of the IPR is not something that concerns me really.
Basically the tool I use empowers me to deliver to a huge number of platforms natively so I am thinking that this has to be of use to someone somewhere and after contracting collapsed 3 years as a permie has put me off doing another stint of this for some time.
I will be looking for custom software that will link my website, despatch program (whoever that might be with) and accounts system to reduce the amount of manual labour involved in typing out duplicate information about customer information and order details.
The price might be high and it isn't strictly neccessary now but I hope it will come into it's own when the business starts to get busy.
The price might be high and it isn't strictly neccessary now but I hope it will come into it's own when the business starts to get busy.
Contracting isn't as dead as it was. It is starting to pick up now, which is fantastic news for me as my (err, I mean "my company's") current contract is finishing on the 15th OCtober and I'll be looking for something else to start on or after 18th October.
I'm hoping to break into the financial sector since that seems to be where the C++ contracts are currently.
But I digress.
I'm hoping to break into the financial sector since that seems to be where the C++ contracts are currently.
But I digress.
The company I work for does as don says - a package application with bespoke additions. The problems we face are that people dont want to pay for extra stuff, that its difficult to make the extra stuff generic so that it can be sold again without bearing a significant extra development cost, and lastly that people dont recognise is that basing a new system upon their database designed by their 12 year old son will cause problems.
I tend to do quite a bit of bespoke software (all fixed price) nowadays but it's not all that easy to get the price right.
I don't make nearly as much as I would on hourly rate contracting but I am trying to build a set of clients in a niche industry that needs "special" skills.
The advantages are principally in working from home in my own way. People who do this should never do it because they are fed up with their bosses; customers can be much more difficult and you can't treat them like you would your boss.
Still, I prefer it.
I don't make nearly as much as I would on hourly rate contracting but I am trying to build a set of clients in a niche industry that needs "special" skills.
The advantages are principally in working from home in my own way. People who do this should never do it because they are fed up with their bosses; customers can be much more difficult and you can't treat them like you would your boss.
Still, I prefer it.
Will the customer put in enough effort to allow you to finish and deliver the product? Will they accept responsibility if their spec was wrong? Will they accept that if they want post-delivery support and midifications outside of the spec, then they will have to pay for it? Will they they take on-board the knowledge they need to run the new system (i.e. budget for and provide staff for training, read the ****inf manual before they switch it on)? In my experience, no, no, no and no are the usual answers. If they have no experience of this kind of process it will be painful. There is a lot to be said for avoiding fixed price projects. Time and materials is fairer for both sides unless you want the supplier to price in a shed load of risk.
PetrolTed said:
I guess the only way out of the situation for small businesses is for them to request the application at a 'reasonable' rate/fixed cost, s/w bloke writes it but retains the IPR to it and then flogs it elsewhere to make it truly viable. Is that done much?
Yes. Our scheme is quite like that. However - in order for the customer to buy in the first place you need a core software offering they can see, touch and try out. Then they tell you extra they need. Then you can do a deal to provide the functionality at a fixed price retaining IPR.
Works well. "Partner" firms get a special deal and you get to enhance your system making it more saleable.
Problem is - you need the core app first, we've found after long experience. Man years (and man years and man years) of effort go into that...
lanciachris said:
The company I work for does as don says - a package application with bespoke additions. The problems we face are that people dont want to pay for extra stuff, that its difficult to make the extra stuff generic so that it can be sold again without bearing a significant extra development cost, and lastly that people dont recognise is that basing a new system upon their database designed by their 12 year old son will cause problems.
Yes. Making the "bespoke" additions generic enough is time consuming and costly. But the alternative is doing a cheap'n'cheerful no use to anyone else mod that you have to support for evermore. I've made money out of *that* too but...
ATG said:
Will the customer put in enough effort to allow you to finish and deliver the product? Will they accept responsibility if their spec was wrong? Will they accept that if they want post-delivery support and midifications outside of the spec, then they will have to pay for it? Will they they take on-board the knowledge they need to run the new system (i.e. budget for and provide staff for training, read the ****inf manual before they switch it on)? In my experience, no, no, no and no are the usual answers. If they have no experience of this kind of process it will be painful. There is a lot to be said for avoiding fixed price projects. Time and materials is fairer for both sides unless you want the supplier to price in a shed load of risk.
Know exactly what you mean. But all the same...if you can be thick skinned enough to be up-front with people about expectations vs delivery then you can make money at it.
And its loads easier to sell.
Firms can be *very* wary of T&M projects as many have been badly stung in the past when the project goes wrong and the supplier just keeps on billing.
Its one reason why they like to buy a package that is *nearly* right for them and pay for extras...
Plotloss said:
Well, at 2.45pm its looking like my fate will be decided.
Don - I am a CASE tool developer by trade so consequently functionally rich software that appears quickly is somewhat of a core skill. I have also worked in customer facing roles in a technical capacity (technical project management) but never sales (which I have oftened fancied it has to be said).
I am thinking currently about fixed price bespoke apps for SME.
Depending on the application breadth and whether its commercially viable then keeping hold of the IPR is not something that concerns me really.
Basically the tool I use empowers me to deliver to a huge number of platforms natively so I am thinking that this has to be of use to someone somewhere and after contracting collapsed 3 years as a permie has put me off doing another stint of this for some time.
Very best of luck, mate.
Ahh the myths of off the shelf and bespoke.
Do you have an off the shelf company?
Chances are (unless you have just bought a franchise) no, therefore why do you think that off the shelf software is going to work?
When you buy something off the shelf you must remember that it is one size fits all. You are therefore paying for code you don't need, will never use and will add overhead to your system. This is even the case with modular stuff where you supposedly only buy what you need.
I suspect that with most off the shelf packages be they sage, SAP, JDE, MS word etc, etc very few people use more than about 60% of what they buy and are charged for on an ongoing basis.
The best approach is to decide what you want, detail all the functionality then decide on an acceptable level of compatability (100% is generally pretty unrealistic unless we are talking about something simple). Once you have this then look at off the shelf stuff, talk to some bespoke people and see what will meet the percentage you need to fit your business.
There was a very intreresting article in the FT a few months ago (which I felt the need to write in and argue with) where they said that all large companies (I know the initial thread was SME) should buy off the shelf systems and change their business model to fit, they should also not expect to see if the systems were working for 5 years, note that is not see a return that is see if they are working. What sort of crock is that? I cannot think of many real work businesses that can function at that sort of crap level.
The other issue is the perception that a new system is always the right way to go, we find that by looking at a customers existing systems etc we can usually find ways to integrate them to give a much greater level of functionality and therefore a much higher return on the initial investment.
I'm not saying that off the shelf is wrong, I can see no case for writing an accounts package when I can pick up sage for a few quid, but then again how much of sage will we ever use? Not much.
We provide very good bespoke solutions, we are not cheap but the costs are usually less than buying something off the shelf, having to modify it beyond all recognition to make it work and also having to change the business to fit the software.
I could go on
Anyway if anyone wants to talk bespoke give me a shout.
Matt, good luck. If you decide to go for it please send me your details you never know we might get busy enough to need some help one day.
D
Do you have an off the shelf company?
Chances are (unless you have just bought a franchise) no, therefore why do you think that off the shelf software is going to work?
When you buy something off the shelf you must remember that it is one size fits all. You are therefore paying for code you don't need, will never use and will add overhead to your system. This is even the case with modular stuff where you supposedly only buy what you need.
I suspect that with most off the shelf packages be they sage, SAP, JDE, MS word etc, etc very few people use more than about 60% of what they buy and are charged for on an ongoing basis.
The best approach is to decide what you want, detail all the functionality then decide on an acceptable level of compatability (100% is generally pretty unrealistic unless we are talking about something simple). Once you have this then look at off the shelf stuff, talk to some bespoke people and see what will meet the percentage you need to fit your business.
There was a very intreresting article in the FT a few months ago (which I felt the need to write in and argue with) where they said that all large companies (I know the initial thread was SME) should buy off the shelf systems and change their business model to fit, they should also not expect to see if the systems were working for 5 years, note that is not see a return that is see if they are working. What sort of crock is that? I cannot think of many real work businesses that can function at that sort of crap level.
The other issue is the perception that a new system is always the right way to go, we find that by looking at a customers existing systems etc we can usually find ways to integrate them to give a much greater level of functionality and therefore a much higher return on the initial investment.
I'm not saying that off the shelf is wrong, I can see no case for writing an accounts package when I can pick up sage for a few quid, but then again how much of sage will we ever use? Not much.
We provide very good bespoke solutions, we are not cheap but the costs are usually less than buying something off the shelf, having to modify it beyond all recognition to make it work and also having to change the business to fit the software.
I could go on
Anyway if anyone wants to talk bespoke give me a shout.
Matt, good luck. If you decide to go for it please send me your details you never know we might get busy enough to need some help one day.
D
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