Client taking the P155? What to do?
Discussion
Chaps,
Minor problemmo with a (potential) client. Thought I would throw it open to the assembled crowds for an opinion, before I decide what to do.
I'm an independant contractor, in a peculiar backwater of business consultancy. I have 2 existing clients at the moment, who are buying my time on a day-by-day basis.
I have a potential new client (Company X), who wants a single day of my time, supposedly with a view to some more days "If I sell myself well". This day is to be spent talking to an end client about some possible future work. End client sounds kind of ropey, but is close to home (which could be good).
The potential client (Company X) has been dragging his feet about details and dates, and last week he eventually told me the date he needs me is the 27th Sept (next Monday). I pull some favours and get a gap in my diary for the 27th. Two days later, he tells me exactly what will be involved, and it doesn't appeal (going alone to the end client, not knowing anyone there, not knowing much about their background and selling Company X to them - not my idea of fun.) I start to get some cold feet.
Today, Company X sends me a very brusque Email telling me that the date has been changed to the 30th, and I am expected to be there then (no sign of an "If you could" or "Please"). I am already booked on the 30th, to an existing client.
So, what do I do? Ask the existing client very nicely if I can swap dates with them, in order to accomodate Company X, or tell Company X where to put their session? I have no signed contract (yet.) Do I assume that there may be a stack of work in the pipeline and I'd be a fool to turn it down, or do I see this guy as a time-wasting lowlife and tell him to stop being a prat? Bear in mind that the rate is good but the work (thus far) sounds naff, although the end client is close to home.
What would you do? All opinions welcome! (I reserve the right not to follow any advice given here, BTW).
Oli.
Minor problemmo with a (potential) client. Thought I would throw it open to the assembled crowds for an opinion, before I decide what to do.
I'm an independant contractor, in a peculiar backwater of business consultancy. I have 2 existing clients at the moment, who are buying my time on a day-by-day basis.
I have a potential new client (Company X), who wants a single day of my time, supposedly with a view to some more days "If I sell myself well". This day is to be spent talking to an end client about some possible future work. End client sounds kind of ropey, but is close to home (which could be good).
The potential client (Company X) has been dragging his feet about details and dates, and last week he eventually told me the date he needs me is the 27th Sept (next Monday). I pull some favours and get a gap in my diary for the 27th. Two days later, he tells me exactly what will be involved, and it doesn't appeal (going alone to the end client, not knowing anyone there, not knowing much about their background and selling Company X to them - not my idea of fun.) I start to get some cold feet.
Today, Company X sends me a very brusque Email telling me that the date has been changed to the 30th, and I am expected to be there then (no sign of an "If you could" or "Please"). I am already booked on the 30th, to an existing client.
So, what do I do? Ask the existing client very nicely if I can swap dates with them, in order to accomodate Company X, or tell Company X where to put their session? I have no signed contract (yet.) Do I assume that there may be a stack of work in the pipeline and I'd be a fool to turn it down, or do I see this guy as a time-wasting lowlife and tell him to stop being a prat? Bear in mind that the rate is good but the work (thus far) sounds naff, although the end client is close to home.
What would you do? All opinions welcome! (I reserve the right not to follow any advice given here, BTW).
Oli.
Life is too short ... I'd tell them quite clearly that you aren't prepared to change your schedule because you aren't prepared to muck around your existing clients. Explain that they cannot expect you or indeed anyone else to be able to turn up with no warning or preparation to their would-be clients and do a good job, and it will be a waste of everyone's time, and damaging too, if they insist on trying to proceed that way. If they don't like it, fine; walk away. You tried to warn them, you've avoided grief. No point setting out on a path which is doomed to lead to failure.
p.s. From what I've seen, consulting only works well if both sides trust each other and can speak frankly. Out-sourcing, which often masquerades as consultancy, can survive in an arse-kissing environment, but it's a frustrating way to live, I found.
>> Edited by ATG on Monday 20th September 13:48
p.s. From what I've seen, consulting only works well if both sides trust each other and can speak frankly. Out-sourcing, which often masquerades as consultancy, can survive in an arse-kissing environment, but it's a frustrating way to live, I found.
>> Edited by ATG on Monday 20th September 13:48
I run a sales outsourcing business and if I were in your shoes I would be using this as a test of whether you WANT to work for this new client as much as they are testing you out.
It would seem that they are not showing a great spirit of equality in partnership so far, so I would just let them know that you cannot make that day and suggest some other dates that would suit. They don' need to know why you can't, and you would be showing willing to work with them by putting forward other dates. Remain courteous as if you can show them at least you are professional then it leaves you to make the choice as to whether you engage with them.
Let us know how it goes. Good luck!
It would seem that they are not showing a great spirit of equality in partnership so far, so I would just let them know that you cannot make that day and suggest some other dates that would suit. They don' need to know why you can't, and you would be showing willing to work with them by putting forward other dates. Remain courteous as if you can show them at least you are professional then it leaves you to make the choice as to whether you engage with them.
Let us know how it goes. Good luck!
Why cant company x recommend themselves to their own prospective client?
Why do they need to emply a 3rd party? your goodself?
(- background of small business and if it really needs doing right do it yourself)
When I book in clients to see to 'sell' our services and then at the last min someone wants to change appointments dates - If I can I will but not at the expence of an exisiting client/one already booked in.
Clients that start making all sorts of 'out of the norm' requests are normally too much hassle to deal with as they inevitable go wrong later on.
Polite but firmly - No, I cannot change the date at this late notice but how about x which I can do... is the answer.
Why do they need to emply a 3rd party? your goodself?
(- background of small business and if it really needs doing right do it yourself)
When I book in clients to see to 'sell' our services and then at the last min someone wants to change appointments dates - If I can I will but not at the expence of an exisiting client/one already booked in.
Clients that start making all sorts of 'out of the norm' requests are normally too much hassle to deal with as they inevitable go wrong later on.
Polite but firmly - No, I cannot change the date at this late notice but how about x which I can do... is the answer.
With my company I have started to take an increasingly hard line with a number of clients who are always full of promises but come up with little; I know it is hard to turn business away but you have to make a commercial decision. The most important thing is to protect what you have with your existing client, start messing around with dates and whilst they may seem fine about it on the phone, you do not know what the reaction behind the scenes may be.
>> Edited by Prof Higgins on Monday 20th September 15:49
>> Edited by Prof Higgins on Monday 20th September 15:49
i think part of my decision would be based around the credentials of Company X. For example, rightly or wrongly (well wrongly) many 'larger' companies would se this as very normal busines dealings - someone like Logica for example. You, being a one-man band are considerd entirely flexible (yes I duneretand that they actually know nothing!) and they might not see this as being unreasonable (which you rightly do).
If that were the case I might be tempted (assuming you want/need this extra work) to swallow pride and do the single day to see what it's realy like.
If, however, this is another small business, it sounds like they're entirely taking the P*ss, and will be a pain whenit comes to getting paid....
i know this reads very double standards, but I think that it might be fair?
If that were the case I might be tempted (assuming you want/need this extra work) to swallow pride and do the single day to see what it's realy like.
If, however, this is another small business, it sounds like they're entirely taking the P*ss, and will be a pain whenit comes to getting paid....
i know this reads very double standards, but I think that it might be fair?
Chaps,
It's good to hear some firm, helpful words from people who have been there before. I appreciate all your answers - thanks.
A couple of other questions have come up. I'll try and answer them. Company X is a guy who is happy to pretend he is a 30+ person enterprise with fingers in all pies going. A firm scratch of the surface reveals him and his wife and a load of outsourced subcontractors. So, he is a small company, not interested in the consultancy area (which is what I am interested in), but more in "relationship building" <supressed expression of disgust.>
I take on board the point entirely about working for this guy on a long-term basis. If he can be this much of a t1t over a one-day assignment, how difficult would he be over a week, or a month? This, I guess, is the part that worries me. Also, if I show I am willing to be mucked around once, if I go for it then he will try it on again, and again. I like the idea of a firm line from the outset, and integrity in my behaviour in all things.
The guy at the helm of Company X (who I have been dealing with) is apparently charming on the 'phone (when you can get hold of him) and reasonable enough in person (although late for every appointment.) His Email style is one that really irritates though - short direct instructions, with no politeness or etiquette. A minor thing, but an Email which says (and I quote) "The client has managed to get all their staff (13 now) available on this date. Can you change your dates with the existing client and confirm this by this morning. Yours, <name>" is likely to get anyone's backs up, surely?
Why does Company X need someone else to do their selling for them? Good question. According to the guy in question, he is keen that I should get the work as it is close to home for me (and a long way from his home.) My guess is that he needs the money, and will be taking a fair cut from my rate. And, he would like the client to add to his client list.
I am also guessing that if I pull out of this date, he will have no-one else to stand in. As I said, it is a small and esotric world, and I very much doubt that he will get anyone else to do it (particularly at this notice.)
Chaps, thanks for your help. I think I am answering my own questions. I'll keep it polite, but firm. Leave the doors open for future work, and nothing more. I'll talk it over in the morning with a good and reliable friend in the same line of work, and see what he says. I suspect he will agree with you lot ...
Thanks again.
Oli.
It's good to hear some firm, helpful words from people who have been there before. I appreciate all your answers - thanks.
A couple of other questions have come up. I'll try and answer them. Company X is a guy who is happy to pretend he is a 30+ person enterprise with fingers in all pies going. A firm scratch of the surface reveals him and his wife and a load of outsourced subcontractors. So, he is a small company, not interested in the consultancy area (which is what I am interested in), but more in "relationship building" <supressed expression of disgust.>
I take on board the point entirely about working for this guy on a long-term basis. If he can be this much of a t1t over a one-day assignment, how difficult would he be over a week, or a month? This, I guess, is the part that worries me. Also, if I show I am willing to be mucked around once, if I go for it then he will try it on again, and again. I like the idea of a firm line from the outset, and integrity in my behaviour in all things.
The guy at the helm of Company X (who I have been dealing with) is apparently charming on the 'phone (when you can get hold of him) and reasonable enough in person (although late for every appointment.) His Email style is one that really irritates though - short direct instructions, with no politeness or etiquette. A minor thing, but an Email which says (and I quote) "The client has managed to get all their staff (13 now) available on this date. Can you change your dates with the existing client and confirm this by this morning. Yours, <name>" is likely to get anyone's backs up, surely?
Why does Company X need someone else to do their selling for them? Good question. According to the guy in question, he is keen that I should get the work as it is close to home for me (and a long way from his home.) My guess is that he needs the money, and will be taking a fair cut from my rate. And, he would like the client to add to his client list.
I am also guessing that if I pull out of this date, he will have no-one else to stand in. As I said, it is a small and esotric world, and I very much doubt that he will get anyone else to do it (particularly at this notice.)
Chaps, thanks for your help. I think I am answering my own questions. I'll keep it polite, but firm. Leave the doors open for future work, and nothing more. I'll talk it over in the morning with a good and reliable friend in the same line of work, and see what he says. I suspect he will agree with you lot ...
Thanks again.
Oli.
Chaps,
A quick update.
I told Company X that I was unavailable for the work. Keeping things professional, I failed to mention that I thought his request was rude and out-of-order. I offered some other dates, but he decided to "Find another consultant" for the work. (I would be about 99% sure that this means he did the work himself, which is far more appropriate.)
I may add that his attitude on the telephone when I said I couldn't do it was interesting ... I appreciate that he would be pissed off, and that he was put in a difficult position by his client, but manners on his behalf wouldn't have gone amiss. However, that's done now.
Thanks again for your help. It was really appreciated.
Oli.
A quick update.
I told Company X that I was unavailable for the work. Keeping things professional, I failed to mention that I thought his request was rude and out-of-order. I offered some other dates, but he decided to "Find another consultant" for the work. (I would be about 99% sure that this means he did the work himself, which is far more appropriate.)
I may add that his attitude on the telephone when I said I couldn't do it was interesting ... I appreciate that he would be pissed off, and that he was put in a difficult position by his client, but manners on his behalf wouldn't have gone amiss. However, that's done now.
Thanks again for your help. It was really appreciated.
Oli.
Sounds like you did everything right, it is always worth retaining control of a situation which you ultimately did.
People often like to gain control by making you do something you don't want to do and destabilising you.
However a lot of people chose to work for themselves because they were fed up with other people telling them what to do. I think your frustration with his approach shows this and by not losing control you may be in a stronger position to pick up the pieces when company x cocks it up.
People often like to gain control by making you do something you don't want to do and destabilising you.
However a lot of people chose to work for themselves because they were fed up with other people telling them what to do. I think your frustration with his approach shows this and by not losing control you may be in a stronger position to pick up the pieces when company x cocks it up.
As you had a contract (verbal) for your services, the client cancelled at short notice and woudn't rebook the client is in breach. I'd treat it as a cancellation. Write Mr X a nice letter explaining these points and invoice him for your full fee. If he refuses to pay give him 7 days in writing and then take him to the small claims court where you stand a very good chance of winning. As you're never going to work for him again, it's no big deal and gets you something for your trouble
Jasper Gilder said:
As you had a contract (verbal) for your services, the client cancelled at short notice and woudn't rebook the client is in breach. I'd treat it as a cancellation. Write Mr X a nice letter explaining these points and invoice him for your full fee. If he refuses to pay give him 7 days in writing and then take him to the small claims court where you stand a very good chance of winning. As you're never going to work for him again, it's no big deal and gets you something for your trouble
Jasper,
More than verbal contracture - I had enough Emails from him to constitute a contract, with date, rate and details of what would be required.
Trouble is that it is a small world, and if I am a git to him then it may come back to haunt me. OK, unlikely to, but possible. He has made a bit of a name for himself as a borderline twat in the field in question, and the more questions I ask about him the more interesting the answers. However, I'll behave to him (and everyone else I come across) with integrity, and if he can't manage this basic courtesy then so be it.
Thanks for your comments though. And to everyone else who has posted on this thread. All greatly appreciated.
Oli.
I recently had a client start giving me $hit for something which was his fault and then he threw insults when I pointed this out to the little bigot.
Unlucky for him I'm a) childish and b) enjoy a good bit of revenge:
- Go to google
- Type in 'mailing list subscribe'
- Spend your entire lunch hour distributing his email address everywhere you can
Unlucky for him I'm a) childish and b) enjoy a good bit of revenge:
- Go to google
- Type in 'mailing list subscribe'
- Spend your entire lunch hour distributing his email address everywhere you can
dick dastardly said:
Unlucky for him I'm a) childish and b) enjoy a good bit of revenge:
- Go to google
- Type in 'mailing list subscribe'
- Spend your entire lunch hour distributing his email address everywhere you can
There is a word for people like you... admirable!
_ Some people should get what they deserve, but find an internet cafe or use an anonymiser.dick dastardly said:
I recently had a client start giving me $hit for something which was his fault and then he threw insults when I pointed this out to the little bigot.
Unlucky for him I'm a) childish and b) enjoy a good bit of revenge:
- Go to google
- Type in 'mailing list subscribe'
- Spend your entire lunch hour distributing his email address everywhere you can
Oh, I like it! I like it ALOT! Well done that man!
Now, this could be played to much better advantage with a mobile telephone number, as he can change his Email address more readily than his mobile number. How would I set about this then?
Oli.
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