Land Rover Series III and London ULEZ Exemption

[jeremyc]

Almost without exception any Land Rover Series 3 I check with the TfL ULEZ Checker comes back as NOT being compliant/exempt i.e. ULEZ charges would apply.

This despite them all being over 40 years old (and a mixture of petrol and diesel), which should be exempt as historic vehicles.

Any idea why this is the case? Is it something to do with their taxation class? Series 2A all appear to be exempt/compliant.

Anyone managed to get their Series 3 to be ULEZ compliant?

[Ed Moses]

Has the Landy been registered for historic status with the DVLA? (Road tax free). I have done this with my Series 2a and it comes up as compliant for ULEZ.

[jeremyc]

Ed Moses said:

Has the Landy been registered for historic status with the DVLA? (Road tax free). I have done this with my Series 2a and it comes up as compliant for ULEZ.

That's what I don't know (I'm using registration numbers from adverts).

All the Series 2a that I've tried have come up as exempt, but almost without exception Series 3 are showing as needing to pay ULEZ.

[NomduJour]

The ULEZ checker is still useless, my SIII is showing as liable to the charge despite it being in the historic tax class.

Edit - just tried five more of my historic tax cars, only one is showing as exempt. One of those it thinks is liable to pay has been in and out of the zone lots and nothing’s ever happened.

Edited by NomduJour on Thursday 12th January 21:38

[jeremyc]

Does anyone here have a 40+ year old Series III that the TfL ULEZ Checker shows as being compliant/exempt?

[NomduJour]

Found one exempt on Car & Classic, but every other plate I’ve put in comes back as liable to pay. Database is total rubbish.

[jeremyc]

NomduJour said:

Found one exempt on Car & Classic, but every other plate I’ve put in comes back as liable to pay. Database is total rubbish.

Same for me.

My challenge is whether I roll the dice on purchasing one and then getting it to be exempt. It's an expensive gamble, and I'd much rather be sure prior to purchase.

There's always a 2a of course ...

[NomduJour]

There’s no question of it being liable - if it’s in the historic tax class, it’s exempt, that’s the criteria:

“All vehicles that have a historic vehicle tax class are exempt from the ULEZ.”

https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/ultra-low-emissio...

[ARHarh]

It could be they are classing them as commercial vehicles. Just a guess as I live miles away and have no idea how these things work. But if I take my 2a to the local tip it is classed as a commercial and i have to have it registered for 12 trips to the tip each year.

[jeremyc]

NomduJour said:

There’s no question of it being liable - if it’s in the historic tax class, it’s exempt, that’s the criteria:

“All vehicles that have a historic vehicle tax class are exempt from the ULEZ.”

https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/ultra-low-emissio...

True, but I think the problem is that many Series 3 (and possibly Series 2/2a) are registered as 'Light 4x4 Utility Vehicles'.

TfL ULEZ website said:

Historic vehicles

You can apply to stop paying vehicle tax if your vehicle was built more than 40 years ago. This date moves forward on a 40-year rolling system. For example, when the ULEZ launched in April 2019, vehicles built before 1979 were eligible to apply for historic vehicle tax class.

All vehicles that have a historic vehicle tax class are exempt from the ULEZ. This tax class excludes any vehicle used commercially (for example, coffee vans or street food vans).

In line with the existing LEZ discount all vehicles constructed before 1 January 1973 are exempt from the ULEZ, regardless of commercial use or otherwise.

So any vehicle registered before 1973 are exempt anyway.

TfL LEZ website said:

4x4 light utility vehicles

There are many types of 4x4 light utility vehicle. It is their classification (decided by the manufacturer and the European Union) that determines whether they're affected by the LEZ or not.

4x4 light utility vehicles classed as cars are not affected by the LEZ. Those classed as commercial vehicles are subject to the LEZ.

Any vehicle designed to carry goods, or more than nine passengers, is classed as a commercial vehicle, even if it's only used for recreational purposes.

These include:

• All models of pick-up vehicles, including dual cab pick-ups
• Commercial or 'panel van' variants of light utility vehicles (these can be identified by having a goods-carrying capacity in place of seating and metal panels in place of windows)
• Light utility vehicles that have more than eight passenger seats

So if we assume they are going to follow the LEZ rules for 4x4 light utility vehicles, then so long as it is classed as a 'car' then it is exempt.

TfL LEZ website said:

Land Rovers

We have worked with Land Rover to establish which vehicles with the body type of 'Light 4x4 Utility Vehicle' are subject to the LEZ. Vehicles manufactured before 1973 are considered to be 'historic' vehicles and are exempt from the LEZ.

The vehicles listed below are subject to the LEZ standards:

• All Defenders; 88s, 90s, 109s, 110s, 127 and 130s (except station wagon variants see below)
• All Defenders manufactured with 10 or more seats including the driver's seat
• Freelander Commercial
• Discovery or Discovery Series 2 Commercial
• Conversions (eg ambulance, motor home)

The following vehicles are not subject to LEZ as they are classed as 'estates':

• Defender, 88, 90, 109 and 110 station wagon variants up to nine seats inc the drivers

A small number of Defenders 90s and 110s may be a 'station wagon' but may not be classified as such by the DVLA. This means vehicles with side and rear windows manufactured with fixed seating throughout the vehicle including the area accessed via the back door and there are nine seats or less including the driver's seat.

Vehicles without fixed seating throughout will not be treated as an estate and will be subject to LEZ. Fixed seating means individual seats with seat belts. It does not include benches or homemade seating variants.

If your vehicle meets this criterion it will not be subject to the LEZ standards. In these circumstances if you intend to use the vehicle in the LEZ you need to:

• For models registered from 1998 - correct the body type description, vehicle model details and/or number of seats with the DVLA and provide photographic proof
• For models registered before 1998 - register your vehicle with TfL with suitable photographic proofs showing all sides of the vehicles with all doors open which clearly shows the entire internal seating arrangements.

So you need to have a Station Wagon with fixed seating throughout to be exempt.

Clear as mud ...

[NomduJour]

Other thing to note is that current taxation classes may be different to when originally registered.

[NomduJour]

… But it shouldn’t matter, because vehicles with historic tax classification are also exempt from the LEZ:

https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/low-emission-zone...

[jeremyc]

I think I've cracked how the TfL ULEZ checker treats Series 3 Land Rovers by checking a load of registrations together with the vehicle status from CarTaxCheck.

Presumably the ANPR system dishing out the charges uses the same TfL database and therefore generates the same results.

For all vehicles registered before 1973 they are ULEZ exempt, regardless of the vehicle type they are registered as. Some were "LCV" (presumably light commercial vehicle) and some "Car".

All vehicles I checked registered after 1973 were NOT ULEZ exempt, regardless of the vehicle type they are registered as. Most are shown as having vehicle type "LCV", some "LCV Station Wagon".

So it seems the answer is to buy a pre-1973 Series III, or somehow get a later one reclassified as being exempt by TfL.

[NomduJour]

The checker database is not the arbiter of what is exempt or not.

[catso]

jeremyc said:

For all vehicles registered before 1973 they are ULEZ exempt

Actually 1983, but bear in mind that 'historic' status is not automatically given to a vehicle 40 years old (actually, usually 41 as needs to be more than 40 years old, so 1982), you have to apply for it.

Otherwise it continues under it's original taxation class, meaning you have to pay the tax and is not MOT/ULEZ exempt.

Also consider that even if it is historic and MOT/ULEZ exempt, you still need to renew the tax every year (even though it's free) and you will still get a fine for no tax if you don't.

[jeremyc]

catso said:

jeremyc said:

For all vehicles registered before 1973 they are ULEZ exempt

Actually 1983, but bear in mind that 'historic' status is not automatically given to a vehicle 40 years old (actually, usually 41 as needs to be more than 40 years old, so 1982), you have to apply for it.

Otherwise it continues under it's original taxation class, meaning you have to pay the tax and is not MOT/ULEZ exempt.

Also consider that even if it is historic and MOT/ULEZ exempt, you still need to renew the tax every year (even though it's free) and you will still get a fine for no tax if you don't.

Not for Land Rovers: not all 1973-1982 can be reclassified as 'historic' status to qualify.

TfL website said:

Land Rovers

We have worked with Land Rover to establish which vehicles with the body type of 'Light 4x4 Utility Vehicle' are subject to the LEZ. Vehicles manufactured before 1973 are considered to be 'historic' vehicles and are exempt from the LEZ.

The vehicles listed below are subject to the LEZ standards:

• All Defenders; 88s, 90s, 109s, 110s, 127 and 130s (except station wagon variants see below)
• All Defenders manufactured with 10 or more seats including the driver's seat
• Freelander Commercial
• Discovery or Discovery Series 2 Commercial
• Conversions (eg ambulance, motor home)

The following vehicles are not subject to LEZ as they are classed as 'estates':

• Defender, 88, 90, 109 and 110 station wagon variants up to nine seats inc the drivers

A small number of Defenders 90s and 110s may be a 'station wagon' but may not be classified as such by the DVLA. This means vehicles with side and rear windows manufactured with fixed seating throughout the vehicle including the area accessed via the back door and there are nine seats or less including the driver's seat.

Vehicles without fixed seating throughout will not be treated as an estate and will be subject to LEZ. Fixed seating means individual seats with seat belts. It does not include benches or homemade seating variants.

If your vehicle meets this criterion it will not be subject to the LEZ standards. In these circumstances if you intend to use the vehicle in the LEZ you need to:

• For models registered from 1998 - correct the body type description, vehicle model details and/or number of seats with the DVLA and provide photographic proof
• For models registered before 1998 - register your vehicle with TfL with suitable photographic proofs showing all sides of the vehicles with all doors open which clearly shows the entire internal seating arrangements.

[catso]

jeremyc said:

ot for Land Rovers: not all can be reclassified as 'historic' status to qualify.

Why is this?

For the record, I have a 1963 Landrover that is 'Historic' and shows on the ULEZ checker as meeting the standard and so charge exempt, though I highly doubt I'll ever drive it that far so irrelevant to me.

Edited to add;

The best bit from the above ULEZ site is;

Ultra Low Emission Zone (ULEZ)

This vehicle meets the ULEZ emissions standards
You do not need to pay a daily ULEZ charge to drive in the zone, and are helping to improve air quality across London.

I hardly think a 60 yr old Landover with a V8 petrol engine is helping to improve air quality anywhere...

Edited by catso on Saturday 21st January 17:24

[jeremyc]

catso said:

Why is this?

For the record, I have a 1963 Landrover that is 'Historic' and shows on the ULEZ checker as meeting the standard and so charge exempt, though I highly doubt I'll ever drive it that far so irrelevant to me.

I believe it's because some were originally registered as "Light Commercial Vehicles" with the DVLA. I'm guessing that the DVLA classification needs to be changed (to 'Car' or something) and/or TfL contacted to change their database to allow the vehicle to be exempt.

All of my research suggests that TfL treat all pre-1973 Land Rovers as being ULEZ exempt (hence your '63 model showing as such). However, every single post 1972 Land Rover that I have checked has NOT been shown as exempt (and I've so far checked 43 Series III ...).

It's maddening because I want to buy a Series III to trundle around fee-free within the ULEZ when they extend it in October (I'll be living in the ULEZ), but I can't afford to take the risk that it can't be reclassified as exempt. It's something that I'm going to have to put on the seller as a condition of purchase.

I've just had to sell my perfectly lovely Defender because it is not exempt ...

[catso]

jeremyc said:

believe it's because some were originally registered as "Light Commercial Vehicles" with the DVLA. I'm guessing that the DVLA classification needs to be changed (to 'Car' or something) and/or TfL contacted to change their database to allow the vehicle to be exempt.

All of my research suggests that TfL treat all pre-1973 Land Rovers as being ULEZ exempt (hence your '63 model showing as such). However, every single post 1972 Land Rover that I have checked has NOT been shown as exempt (and I've so far checked 43 Series III ...).

It's maddening because I want to buy a Series III to trundle around fee-free within the ULEZ when they extend it in October (I'll be living in the ULEZ), but I can't afford to take the risk that it can't be reclassified as exempt. It's something that I'm going to have to put on the seller as a condition of purchase.

I've just had to sell my perfectly lovely Defender because it is not exempt ...

Strange, I don't actually know what mine was originally classed as (PLG/LCV etc.), as it was already 'historic' when I bought it.

Maybe something to do with the historic class originally being only for pre '72 cars, before they brought in the rolling 40 year exemption that all '72 are exempt?

I was looking at a '72 Series III last year and that was ULEZ exempt/Historic but that doesn't help you with the '73 on problem you're finding.

[NomduJour]

jeremyc said:

believe it's because some were originally registered as "Light Commercial Vehicles" with the DVLA. I'm guessing that the DVLA classification needs to be changed (to 'Car' or something) and/or TfL contacted to change their database to allow the vehicle to be exempt.

As above, anything over 40 years old can be put into the historic tax class if it isn’t being used commercially, Land Rovers are no different:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/governmen...