Bolloré may kill off Disco Sport, XJ, XE, XF...
Discussion
From yesterday's Sunday Times. Thierry Bolloré is to announce a radical shake-up of JLR nameplates:
Jaguar Land Rover’s new boss could slash the car-maker’s product range — even ditching its forthcoming electric XJ saloon.
Former Renault chief executive Thierry Bolloré is believed to be mulling deep cuts to its line-up, with up to six current and planned models facing the axe.
Bolloré, who replaced Sir Ralf Speth last month, is grappling with an array of issues at Britain’s biggest car-maker, from the economic slump to a confused mix of similar models. He also inherited a range of poor-selling Jaguar saloons.
Bolloré is understood to be considering halting the XJ, despite JLR and its suppliers having spent tens of millions of pounds on tooling for the new car. It has limited sales prospects, with Jaguar hoping to sell 38,000 a year. Bolloré, 57, is considering ditching two more models — a Range Rover and a Jaguar SUV — that were due to be built on the same platform, or skeleton.
Also at risk are its Jaguar XE and XF saloons, sales of which have disappointed, and its Discovery Sport SUV, with similar characteristics to a number of its other SUVs. That raises questions over JLR’s Castle Bromwich and Halewood plants.
Model cuts would be a significant diversion from Speth’s strategy. The Bavarian was hired by Tata to turn round Jaguar after the Indian conglomerate bought the car-maker from Ford for £1.1bn in 2008.
Jaguar Land Rover’s new boss could slash the car-maker’s product range — even ditching its forthcoming electric XJ saloon.
Former Renault chief executive Thierry Bolloré is believed to be mulling deep cuts to its line-up, with up to six current and planned models facing the axe.
Bolloré, who replaced Sir Ralf Speth last month, is grappling with an array of issues at Britain’s biggest car-maker, from the economic slump to a confused mix of similar models. He also inherited a range of poor-selling Jaguar saloons.
Bolloré is understood to be considering halting the XJ, despite JLR and its suppliers having spent tens of millions of pounds on tooling for the new car. It has limited sales prospects, with Jaguar hoping to sell 38,000 a year. Bolloré, 57, is considering ditching two more models — a Range Rover and a Jaguar SUV — that were due to be built on the same platform, or skeleton.
Also at risk are its Jaguar XE and XF saloons, sales of which have disappointed, and its Discovery Sport SUV, with similar characteristics to a number of its other SUVs. That raises questions over JLR’s Castle Bromwich and Halewood plants.
Model cuts would be a significant diversion from Speth’s strategy. The Bavarian was hired by Tata to turn round Jaguar after the Indian conglomerate bought the car-maker from Ford for £1.1bn in 2008.
I think Jaguar has been living on borrowed time for quite a while now. I do like their models and will probably look at a XF Sportbrake as my next car but they always seem around a generation or two behind the Germans.
From what I can gather the only models making serious money are the RR & RRS. The Slovakia plant seems like a massive waste of money unless they plan on shifting all production over there eventually. I guess it was conceived when both Halewood and Solihull were running at full capacity though.
I wish them look as the Range Rover is a phenomenal product but I don't think their brand it being helped by the massive range of similar models.
From what I can gather the only models making serious money are the RR & RRS. The Slovakia plant seems like a massive waste of money unless they plan on shifting all production over there eventually. I guess it was conceived when both Halewood and Solihull were running at full capacity though.
I wish them look as the Range Rover is a phenomenal product but I don't think their brand it being helped by the massive range of similar models.
I think it’s more likely that ‘the’ Discovery is at risk, not the Discovery ‘Sport’. Sales of the Discovery Sport are high as are the Evoque, they’re the bread and butter models. The high earners are the Range Rover and the Range Rover Sport.
Sales of the Discovery were low anyway, partly due to the controversial rear end and now they’ve fallen through the floor as the Defender has arrived (the similar characteristic vehicle) and everybody who wanted a new Discovery 4 is buying a Defender.
Sales of the Discovery were low anyway, partly due to the controversial rear end and now they’ve fallen through the floor as the Defender has arrived (the similar characteristic vehicle) and everybody who wanted a new Discovery 4 is buying a Defender.
Ditching an all electric model seems a backwards step- electric is obviously the long term future, so makes sense to gain a foothold and develop that sector now. I don’t know what the sales figures and profit margins are on each model, but LR/RR is obviously the stronger side of the business.
XE sales have been very disappointing, so perhaps this should be the first to go, along with the XF. Conventionally powered saloons are a declining sector and the Germans have too strong a hold on it. Keep the F-Type and SUVs. The I-Pace shows Jaguar have something worthwhile to offer, they can be up there is they focus on high-tech and being distinctive. Perhaps repositioning as a British Tesla/Polestar might be better than going toe to toe with BMW/Merc etc? Can see Slovakia possibly taking production from some of the UK plants in order to save money.
XE sales have been very disappointing, so perhaps this should be the first to go, along with the XF. Conventionally powered saloons are a declining sector and the Germans have too strong a hold on it. Keep the F-Type and SUVs. The I-Pace shows Jaguar have something worthwhile to offer, they can be up there is they focus on high-tech and being distinctive. Perhaps repositioning as a British Tesla/Polestar might be better than going toe to toe with BMW/Merc etc? Can see Slovakia possibly taking production from some of the UK plants in order to save money.
Fusion777 said:
XE sales have been very disappointing, so perhaps this should be the first to go, along with the XF. Conventionally powered saloons are a declining sector..................
I think the 3 series and 5 series are doing OK? I've always thought that Jaguar keep shooting themselves in the foot with their pricing and marketing strategy as well as falling down on some tech.
The XF and XE are worthy products that the press have always said drive well and looks are OK too.
However the base models look cheap and nasty and to spec either car up to look more sporty and attractive - to compete with the M Sport - is prohibitively expensive, especially when depreciation is also taken into account (which then affects their ability to get competitive lease deals).
Configuring a car with a six-cylinder engine is a massive uplift in cost and looks poor value.
The in car technology is rubbish in comparison with BMW / Merc with low res slow responding screens with a terrible user interface. There's no excuse for this as to get this right is simple User Interface design - there's loads of talent out there to get this right.
If they had their pricing more competitive, the model line up such that the Sport models and configurations were more affordable and fixed up the in car tech I think these models would have sold much better. I don't understand how they can't see this for themselves.
It's probably too late now - I suspect the XE in particular is doomed.
The recent XE facelift is great- it's the car that it should have been first time around. Problem is, it's taken them 5 years to get there, and in the meantime, Audi released a new A4, BMW released their new 3, and Merc facelifted the C-Class, with a new model due next year.
As someone stated earlier, it's like they're a generation behind with many of their products. Surprised people are wanting to take out the Evoque and Velar, though, They seem to be big sellers, and must be a cash cow. They are aspirational products, in the way that an XE or XF aren't.
As someone stated earlier, it's like they're a generation behind with many of their products. Surprised people are wanting to take out the Evoque and Velar, though, They seem to be big sellers, and must be a cash cow. They are aspirational products, in the way that an XE or XF aren't.
LR: We know that the new FFRR is going to to up in price and luxury. I think base will be 100kish, means the RRS will probably increase to start more like 80k with more space for the Velar and Evoque. All of these sell well. I think the LR bit will then become 2x models, Defender and Disco Sport - which I think will become a cheaper, more basic, Defender in time. Disco goes.
Jag: I imagine the XF and F-Type will go quite quickly, sadly, you see very few new ones in the wild. Same for the E-Pace.
I think the XE and F-Pace will remain until the end of this post facelift cycle, four or five years.
Future for jag is electric but they can't take their foot off the pedal, they were surprisingly far ahead with the IPace and it would be their death knell if they don't strive to capitalise on this - everyone else is catching up and going past...
Jag: I imagine the XF and F-Type will go quite quickly, sadly, you see very few new ones in the wild. Same for the E-Pace.
I think the XE and F-Pace will remain until the end of this post facelift cycle, four or five years.
Future for jag is electric but they can't take their foot off the pedal, they were surprisingly far ahead with the IPace and it would be their death knell if they don't strive to capitalise on this - everyone else is catching up and going past...
The Range Rover brand seems pretty solid. The Evoque, RRS and RR sell well over a range of key markets. Possibly the Velar is at risk as despite being rather nice it doesn’t seem to carve its own strong niche like the Evoque and RRS did when they appeared.
The LR range is quite tricky. The DS seems quite popular and is the biggest selling LR product. The Disco itself, once brought in to fill the void between the very agricultural Defender and the very expensive Range Rover has arguably lost its purpose upon the arrival of the new Defender.
If I had to chose two LR models for the chop they might be the Velar and the Disco.
Jaguar is really difficult though. The brand image hasn’t transitioned and it might not ever. The cars are good but not enough people want them. Going EV isn’t going to get them any new volume anytime soon. It’s a good idea but I wonder if too much damage has been done. I wonder if they won’t solve the Jaguar problem by speeding up the selling off of the whole of Jaguar. It has only been kept going because Ratan Tata loves Jaguar and he is getting old now and having to make concessions.
The LR range is quite tricky. The DS seems quite popular and is the biggest selling LR product. The Disco itself, once brought in to fill the void between the very agricultural Defender and the very expensive Range Rover has arguably lost its purpose upon the arrival of the new Defender.
If I had to chose two LR models for the chop they might be the Velar and the Disco.
Jaguar is really difficult though. The brand image hasn’t transitioned and it might not ever. The cars are good but not enough people want them. Going EV isn’t going to get them any new volume anytime soon. It’s a good idea but I wonder if too much damage has been done. I wonder if they won’t solve the Jaguar problem by speeding up the selling off of the whole of Jaguar. It has only been kept going because Ratan Tata loves Jaguar and he is getting old now and having to make concessions.
brickwall said:
The question is to whom is Jaguar worth more than it is currently worth to JLR?
Who would buy it as a standalone entity? As a bare minimum you’d need an engine deal, but that doesn’t help much with the $$$$ needed for EV investment.
It’s quite hard to answer with UK centric spectacles on. If we asked the same question back in 2008 it would have been hard to see who would want Jaguar but someone did. Of course Ford needed to sell and they had to throw in LR to sweeten the deal but a buyer was found. Who would buy it as a standalone entity? As a bare minimum you’d need an engine deal, but that doesn’t help much with the $$$$ needed for EV investment.
We are arguably in a very similar position again. Jaguar isn’t doing brilliantly and the parent has gone from JLR being a vital revenue machine through which it has been able to meet its Group debt obligations and stave off a capital restructuring to potentially being a cash drain. In many ways, TATA may be very close to needing to divest JLR for pretty much the same reasons Ford had to. A clue may lie in how much say TATA’s creditors took in this new appointment.
In reality we know JLR is quietly up for sale. They’ve been forced into being quite overt about Jaguar and anyone buying that would probably demand LR thrown in.
Who would buy it? Someone looking to build a new automotive group, an existing automotive group wanting to grow critical mass or break into premium.
As to whether what they put on the table being worth more than JLR is to TATA, I think the clock is ticking on that one and we may even be at that crossover point. Anyone interested in having a pop would arguably be sniffing around now, in the current market. But it may be that there’s so much blood in the water at the moment that there are better automotive deals to be had?
It’s shocks me that LR don’t have a small product to rival the 1 series size cars, even the E pace is much more expensive. It worked for Mercedes Audi and BMW bringing in a Premium hatchback or small SUV. I would have thought it would sell well
Quite right that there’s too many models though. I doubt they will axe the evoque that’s the one I see the most. But still never as many as I see Q3s or GLCs.
Quite right that there’s too many models though. I doubt they will axe the evoque that’s the one I see the most. But still never as many as I see Q3s or GLCs.
Nickbrapp said:
It’s shocks me that LR don’t have a small product to rival the 1 series size cars, even the E pace is much more expensive. It worked for Mercedes Audi and BMW bringing in a Premium hatchback or small SUV. I would have thought it would sell well
Quite right that there’s too many models though. I doubt they will axe the evoque that’s the one I see the most. But still never as many as I see Q3s or GLCs.
The problem is that it is a volume and funding game. Mercedes has form as they have an enormous commercial market that is built completely on being able to churn out huge numbers and fund the rental of them to consumers via market competitive debt. Conversely, JLR has never done high volume and can’t fund consumer debt efficiently. It’s partly why the XE hasn’t worked. They can get the margins down on the production or the debt cheaply enough to be able to smash their way into the fleet market and take any viable, sustainable share. Quite right that there’s too many models though. I doubt they will axe the evoque that’s the one I see the most. But still never as many as I see Q3s or GLCs.
Unfortunately JLR suffer from a number of issues IMHO.
1) The range is confused. No one who isn't into cars I speak to has a clue what the Velar is and the parallel models of Discovery Sport / Evoque and Discovery / RRS devalue both models.
2) The first comment out of anyone's mouth when JLR is mentioned is reliability. The question was asked how BMW survive with a plethora of models why shouldn't it work for JLR is because the perception is that that BMW are reliable and keen on price. The perception with JLR is they are expensive for what you get (on lease or PCP as well due to low discounting and poorer residuals) and have this question mark (deserved or not) over reliability.
As my father in law put it "why would I pay more to be let down?".
3) Jaguar in particular have lost their USP. They have been trying for 30 years to loose the 'old man' image and re capture the glory of the E-Type.
This was and is a stupid strategy. Old men have money and buy cars. The E-Type was a flash in the pan. I am in my mid 40's and if it was 1990 would be straight out to buy a new XJ6.
They don't make a fuss about the XJ, most dealers don't have one in stock, when it is the flagship of the range, used by government ministers and the very essence of the brand. Instead they have a litany of 3 and 5 series clones which fail against the competition for the reasons in (2).
They dropped the XK for the F-Type. Why?
The XK sold, people like occasional back seats and a GT car.
Old men have money and play golf. Get over yourselves and market cars people want.
4) Kill the XE & F-Type. Make the next XJ a real Tesla rival with better interiors and comfort (the one area Tesla fail on).
XJ and XF are the key cars for Jaguar and should be supported.
Forget the iPace, Tesla show that EV's don't need to look like noddy cars. Jaguars should be beautiful.
Forget F-Pace etc etc as well. Why compete with LR?
1) The range is confused. No one who isn't into cars I speak to has a clue what the Velar is and the parallel models of Discovery Sport / Evoque and Discovery / RRS devalue both models.
2) The first comment out of anyone's mouth when JLR is mentioned is reliability. The question was asked how BMW survive with a plethora of models why shouldn't it work for JLR is because the perception is that that BMW are reliable and keen on price. The perception with JLR is they are expensive for what you get (on lease or PCP as well due to low discounting and poorer residuals) and have this question mark (deserved or not) over reliability.
As my father in law put it "why would I pay more to be let down?".
3) Jaguar in particular have lost their USP. They have been trying for 30 years to loose the 'old man' image and re capture the glory of the E-Type.
This was and is a stupid strategy. Old men have money and buy cars. The E-Type was a flash in the pan. I am in my mid 40's and if it was 1990 would be straight out to buy a new XJ6.
They don't make a fuss about the XJ, most dealers don't have one in stock, when it is the flagship of the range, used by government ministers and the very essence of the brand. Instead they have a litany of 3 and 5 series clones which fail against the competition for the reasons in (2).
They dropped the XK for the F-Type. Why?
The XK sold, people like occasional back seats and a GT car.
Old men have money and play golf. Get over yourselves and market cars people want.
4) Kill the XE & F-Type. Make the next XJ a real Tesla rival with better interiors and comfort (the one area Tesla fail on).
XJ and XF are the key cars for Jaguar and should be supported.
Forget the iPace, Tesla show that EV's don't need to look like noddy cars. Jaguars should be beautiful.
Forget F-Pace etc etc as well. Why compete with LR?
Stick Legs said:
Unfortunately JLR suffer from a number of issues IMHO.
1) The range is confused. No one who isn't into cars I speak to has a clue what the Velar is and the parallel models of Discovery Sport / Evoque and Discovery / RRS devalue both models.
2) The first comment out of anyone's mouth when JLR is mentioned is reliability. The question was asked how BMW survive with a plethora of models why shouldn't it work for JLR is because the perception is that that BMW are reliable and keen on price. The perception with JLR is they are expensive for what you get (on lease or PCP as well due to low discounting and poorer residuals) and have this question mark (deserved or not) over reliability.
As my father in law put it "why would I pay more to be let down?".
3) Jaguar in particular have lost their USP. They have been trying for 30 years to loose the 'old man' image and re capture the glory of the E-Type.
This was and is a stupid strategy. Old men have money and buy cars. The E-Type was a flash in the pan. I am in my mid 40's and if it was 1990 would be straight out to buy a new XJ6.
They don't make a fuss about the XJ, most dealers don't have one in stock, when it is the flagship of the range, used by government ministers and the very essence of the brand. Instead they have a litany of 3 and 5 series clones which fail against the competition for the reasons in (2).
They dropped the XK for the F-Type. Why?
The XK sold, people like occasional back seats and a GT car.
Old men have money and play golf. Get over yourselves and market cars people want.
4) Kill the XE & F-Type. Make the next XJ a real Tesla rival with better interiors and comfort (the one area Tesla fail on).
XJ and XF are the key cars for Jaguar and should be supported.
Forget the iPace, Tesla show that EV's don't need to look like noddy cars. Jaguars should be beautiful.
Forget F-Pace etc etc as well. Why compete with LR?
Very true with Jauguar I think they’ve tried to follow BMW Mercedes and Audi by trying to appeal to young people but then they never managed it because they never actually had a car cheap enough like the 1 series for young people to actually buy, and in doing that and going sporty they ruined the rest of the range and drove away their core customers, it may have worked for Mercedes but they have being German on their side1) The range is confused. No one who isn't into cars I speak to has a clue what the Velar is and the parallel models of Discovery Sport / Evoque and Discovery / RRS devalue both models.
2) The first comment out of anyone's mouth when JLR is mentioned is reliability. The question was asked how BMW survive with a plethora of models why shouldn't it work for JLR is because the perception is that that BMW are reliable and keen on price. The perception with JLR is they are expensive for what you get (on lease or PCP as well due to low discounting and poorer residuals) and have this question mark (deserved or not) over reliability.
As my father in law put it "why would I pay more to be let down?".
3) Jaguar in particular have lost their USP. They have been trying for 30 years to loose the 'old man' image and re capture the glory of the E-Type.
This was and is a stupid strategy. Old men have money and buy cars. The E-Type was a flash in the pan. I am in my mid 40's and if it was 1990 would be straight out to buy a new XJ6.
They don't make a fuss about the XJ, most dealers don't have one in stock, when it is the flagship of the range, used by government ministers and the very essence of the brand. Instead they have a litany of 3 and 5 series clones which fail against the competition for the reasons in (2).
They dropped the XK for the F-Type. Why?
The XK sold, people like occasional back seats and a GT car.
Old men have money and play golf. Get over yourselves and market cars people want.
4) Kill the XE & F-Type. Make the next XJ a real Tesla rival with better interiors and comfort (the one area Tesla fail on).
XJ and XF are the key cars for Jaguar and should be supported.
Forget the iPace, Tesla show that EV's don't need to look like noddy cars. Jaguars should be beautiful.
Forget F-Pace etc etc as well. Why compete with LR?
The only one that young people like is the Range Rover SVR, you never see a XF in a rap video.
They should have just ditched the Land Rover brand and badged them as Jaguars, or weren’t they going to call them road rovers or something. Then they could have spun Jaguar out as a sports car brand like cupra etc
Nickbrapp said:
They should have just ditched the Land Rover brand and badged them as Jaguars, or weren’t they going to call them road rovers or something. Then they could have spun Jaguar out as a sports car brand like cupra etc
Seriously? You do realise that Tata bought Land Rover and were given Jaguar in deal because they couldn’t be untangled? Jaguar fans are lucky that Tata didn’t do what you said but in reverse and have actually invested in the Jaguar brand. Chasing the Germans was a mistake and the new strategy will move away from that. Jaguar was always a luxury car maker at a more reasonable price and that’s probably what it will get back to. The definition of what luxury means in the car industry is now different though so it more likely won’t be a return to anything like the cars of the past. The new strategy also effectively separates Jaguar and Land Rover. Watch out for a sale of Jaguar in around 2030 if the strategy works.
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