Defender to Series 3
Discussion
Have a 2014 Defender XS Station Wagon that I have had since new and was thinking of replacing it with a Series 3.
The Defender is my daily and used to load the dogs in the back and trips into Edinburgh at the weekend. I realise that an Series 3 is going to be a slight compromise as a direct replacement (due to heated seats, windscreen, conversations above 40 etc in the Defender) so the thoughts are to replace the Defender with 2 vehicles (one as a daily runaround and the Series 3 as a weekend Land Rover).
Just wondering whether anyone has gone down the same route and their experience.
The heart says to go with a 88 Soft Top but suspect the head would say a Station Wagon again (however the side windows irk me a little bit aesthetically).So any recommendations on that front is valued
Don't want a project LR (not enough time for that) but what dealers would people recommend. Quick search of the web bring up:
- John Brown (Thirsk)
- William Classics
anywhere else I am missing looking for a S3.
George
The Defender is my daily and used to load the dogs in the back and trips into Edinburgh at the weekend. I realise that an Series 3 is going to be a slight compromise as a direct replacement (due to heated seats, windscreen, conversations above 40 etc in the Defender) so the thoughts are to replace the Defender with 2 vehicles (one as a daily runaround and the Series 3 as a weekend Land Rover).
Just wondering whether anyone has gone down the same route and their experience.
The heart says to go with a 88 Soft Top but suspect the head would say a Station Wagon again (however the side windows irk me a little bit aesthetically).So any recommendations on that front is valued
Don't want a project LR (not enough time for that) but what dealers would people recommend. Quick search of the web bring up:
- John Brown (Thirsk)
- William Classics
anywhere else I am missing looking for a S3.
George
Edited by douglasgdmw on Thursday 13th February 16:08
Like the Defender you can swap the body config on a a Series pretty easily.
However I’d say any Series is going to be a project vehicle. The youngest is nearly 40 years old.
Also some of the ones advertised seem to be 5 times over priced. I love Land Rovers and have grown up with them. But they just aren’t worth the insane money some are asking for them.
A Series is a lot like a Defender with plenty of charm. But if it’s stock they have no power steering. And leaf suspension. They will be more hard work to drive and a lot less refined. The petrols are smooth but slow and thirsty. The diesel is even slower but very noisy and only mildly better on fuel.
The gearbox is nice to shift, nicer than any Defender. Brakes are generally poorish as they are drum all round. And heaters and wipers aren’t a patch on any 90.
Expect oil leaks and water in leaks. Full tilts tend to leak less than hard tops.
If I was having a Series again I’d look for one with a Rover V8 in.
Great vehicles. But I highly recommend you try a few out before swapping a Defender for one. And lot let the excitement of a 20 min trundle hide the differences. Test drives can be fun. But think how far and how long you are likely to be sitting in such a vehicle.
However I’d say any Series is going to be a project vehicle. The youngest is nearly 40 years old.
Also some of the ones advertised seem to be 5 times over priced. I love Land Rovers and have grown up with them. But they just aren’t worth the insane money some are asking for them.
A Series is a lot like a Defender with plenty of charm. But if it’s stock they have no power steering. And leaf suspension. They will be more hard work to drive and a lot less refined. The petrols are smooth but slow and thirsty. The diesel is even slower but very noisy and only mildly better on fuel.
The gearbox is nice to shift, nicer than any Defender. Brakes are generally poorish as they are drum all round. And heaters and wipers aren’t a patch on any 90.
Expect oil leaks and water in leaks. Full tilts tend to leak less than hard tops.
If I was having a Series again I’d look for one with a Rover V8 in.
Great vehicles. But I highly recommend you try a few out before swapping a Defender for one. And lot let the excitement of a 20 min trundle hide the differences. Test drives can be fun. But think how far and how long you are likely to be sitting in such a vehicle.
I'd probably describe the difference between a Series as being the same amount worse than a Defender as a Defender is worse than a P38 Range Rover, which is again about the same amount worse than an L322.
Scale up the leaks, noisiness, lack of comfort, draughts, slowness, inability to stop and all of the other things that add to the charm/misery of a Defender.
Whether it's charm or misery depends entirely on your personal preference
Scale up the leaks, noisiness, lack of comfort, draughts, slowness, inability to stop and all of the other things that add to the charm/misery of a Defender.
Whether it's charm or misery depends entirely on your personal preference
A LWB will ride a bit better than a SWB, but they have the turning circle of a battleship (a proper Iowa class one, not one of those pissy little pre-dreadnought things).
Tubeless radial tyres improve things, and late Defender steel wheels are tubeless while looking correct (earlier wheels are often airtight for tubeless, but lack a retaining bead, so it's not ideal to run them as such).
Parabolic springs are also a bit better riding.
Steering is fine when rolling, it's only very slow speed stuff that is hard work.
4 speed gearbox is a bit of a limiting factor for road use, as they're quite low geared in the first place. Various solutions for that - change diff ratios, fit an overdrive, convert to 5 speed, or (an option I'm likely taking when they're back in stock), the Ashcroft Transmissions hi-ratio transfer case.
Brakes are actually OK if in good nick, but LWB twin leading shoe fronts are better than the basic SWB ones. Harder to bleed though.
All rattles, draughts, resonances, condensation/leak-based dampness etc found in a Defender are turned up to 11.
Tubeless radial tyres improve things, and late Defender steel wheels are tubeless while looking correct (earlier wheels are often airtight for tubeless, but lack a retaining bead, so it's not ideal to run them as such).
Parabolic springs are also a bit better riding.
Steering is fine when rolling, it's only very slow speed stuff that is hard work.
4 speed gearbox is a bit of a limiting factor for road use, as they're quite low geared in the first place. Various solutions for that - change diff ratios, fit an overdrive, convert to 5 speed, or (an option I'm likely taking when they're back in stock), the Ashcroft Transmissions hi-ratio transfer case.
Brakes are actually OK if in good nick, but LWB twin leading shoe fronts are better than the basic SWB ones. Harder to bleed though.
All rattles, draughts, resonances, condensation/leak-based dampness etc found in a Defender are turned up to 11.
300bhp/ton said:
Defenders go and stop fine. Likely better than a p38/Disco as they use essentially the same breaking system but with less vehicle weight.
Puma Defenders are also pretty quite and draft free and refined. And are no way inferior to a p38 and a lot more fun than an L322.
<sigh>Puma Defenders are also pretty quite and draft free and refined. And are no way inferior to a p38 and a lot more fun than an L322.
Under no illusion that a Series is going to be less refined than my current Puma version (had a 300tdi Defender 90 HardTop prior to the current Station Wagon so know how much more refined the current one is).
No way would I want to undertake some of the journeys in the Series that I do in the Defender, hence why the thoughts are of getting a sensible day to day runner and the Series becomes a weekend vehicle (or when the snow gets bad where I am), So the journeys would definitely be of short duration (or means I purchase of thermal layers and ear protection)
Will definitely be doing a test drive in one prior to making the change as would hate to lose my current Defender and have to try and search for another one.
Would love a V8 version, but getting an 88 in a V8 I suspect hey are like hens teeth and come up for sale very infrequently
Just wondering whether there are any other specialists that I have missed in my search?
George
No way would I want to undertake some of the journeys in the Series that I do in the Defender, hence why the thoughts are of getting a sensible day to day runner and the Series becomes a weekend vehicle (or when the snow gets bad where I am), So the journeys would definitely be of short duration (or means I purchase of thermal layers and ear protection)
Will definitely be doing a test drive in one prior to making the change as would hate to lose my current Defender and have to try and search for another one.
Would love a V8 version, but getting an 88 in a V8 I suspect hey are like hens teeth and come up for sale very infrequently
Just wondering whether there are any other specialists that I have missed in my search?
George
douglasgdmw said:
Under no illusion that a Series is going to be less refined than my current Puma version (had a 300tdi Defender 90 HardTop prior to the current Station Wagon so know how much more refined the current one is).
No way would I want to undertake some of the journeys in the Series that I do in the Defender, hence why the thoughts are of getting a sensible day to day runner and the Series becomes a weekend vehicle (or when the snow gets bad where I am), So the journeys would definitely be of short duration (or means I purchase of thermal layers and ear protection)
Will definitely be doing a test drive in one prior to making the change as would hate to lose my current Defender and have to try and search for another one.
Would love a V8 version, but getting an 88 in a V8 I suspect hey are like hens teeth and come up for sale very infrequently
Just wondering whether there are any other specialists that I have missed in my search?
George
What you need is to find your SIII then find a PHer who has a 3.5 carb V8 with an LT95 *AND* Fairey overdrive sitting under a cover at the side of their house and just bolt that in No way would I want to undertake some of the journeys in the Series that I do in the Defender, hence why the thoughts are of getting a sensible day to day runner and the Series becomes a weekend vehicle (or when the snow gets bad where I am), So the journeys would definitely be of short duration (or means I purchase of thermal layers and ear protection)
Will definitely be doing a test drive in one prior to making the change as would hate to lose my current Defender and have to try and search for another one.
Would love a V8 version, but getting an 88 in a V8 I suspect hey are like hens teeth and come up for sale very infrequently
Just wondering whether there are any other specialists that I have missed in my search?
George
Just echoing the other comments really. I've had both...in fact my "Defender" is actually a very old pre-Defender 110 (admittedly with a Disco Tdi and t-box transplant) so with drum rear brakes,a clattery 200 under the bonnet, minimal sound deadening and extra leaky bits like the old school fresh air vents, it's nowhere near as refined as a Puma, but it's still a bazillion miles away from my old SIII in terms of a driving experience. Every single thing is just massively better...going, stopping, turning, cruising, on road, off road, towing, fording, heating, wipers, fuel economy, comfort, ability, reliability, the list goes on.
I'd love another Series (soft top) but only ever as a short distance toy or show vehicle. The difference is enormous. If you are going to test drive one, do it before the weather gets better and be very honest with yourself!
I'd echo that prices for series vehicles are absolutely daft right now. I get it for a proper nut and bolt restoration job on a mint SI or SII but IMHO the SIII has neither the charm of an SII nor the practicality of a 90/110/Defender. Even as a mad Land Rover fan a boring blue SIII hardtop is just "meh" to me (although the military ones are pretty cool)
Have you thought about an older 90 or 110 soft top? You could sell your XS, buy one of those and still have plenty cash left over for a daily but have a vehicle that's still fun but also practical.
I'd love another Series (soft top) but only ever as a short distance toy or show vehicle. The difference is enormous. If you are going to test drive one, do it before the weather gets better and be very honest with yourself!
I'd echo that prices for series vehicles are absolutely daft right now. I get it for a proper nut and bolt restoration job on a mint SI or SII but IMHO the SIII has neither the charm of an SII nor the practicality of a 90/110/Defender. Even as a mad Land Rover fan a boring blue SIII hardtop is just "meh" to me (although the military ones are pretty cool)
Have you thought about an older 90 or 110 soft top? You could sell your XS, buy one of those and still have plenty cash left over for a daily but have a vehicle that's still fun but also practical.
I have a S3 Lightweight. Pretty much as it left the Royal Anglians in 1996.
The smith heater has two settings, otter's cough and badger's fart, not even good enough to be called a fug stirrer.
The steering is much more vague than a Defender, quite tiring on a longer trip and yes, as above, the turning circle requires some thought.
I appreciate the Lightweight is even more basic than the S3, but it's broadly the same thing. Doors rattle, wind and water find their way past the seals, it steams up like a b
d, the leaf springs can bounce you around and road noise requires you to use makaton. It is a Defender, but from the days of the Empire.
However, if it is not your daily, it is easier to work on, has charm, can be improved to a reasonable degree. I am not a lover of sticking a V8 in as i like to see them original, but at least the chequer plate b
ks has died a death. The gear box can be weak, 4th synchro especially, but if you treat it right, like a rifle bolt.
I put Defender wheels on mine, they look original and ride much better than the original tubed 750's.
I agree - S3 prices are daft. Lightweights - asking £10k plus and not on a galv chassis. Keep an eye on the PH classfieds, there might be nice, unmolested 24v going on there in the very near future......
Edited by Castrol for a knave on Friday 21st February 13:21
I have a Series 3, that I have been slowly restoring over the last four years. More info below if you want to read:
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
Series 3s are still pretty much the cheapest way into a classic Land Rover, but the prices have been steadily rising for the last few years. As soon as they go VED free they can pretty much double. However as far as I can tell, the government are making it harder for the modded ones to be allowed to go VED free. However it's the nature of the beast that many have different engines and gearboxes.
You say you want a project. Most Series 3s will require some work so my honest advice, is don't bother. If you don't like spending an afternoon tinkering with indicators or trying to get doors to shut properly, then I would honestly stick with what you've got. Expect many many bodges on a S3. Electrics can be a bit of pain. I'm slowly converting all of my lighting to LED. Yes it will upset the purists, but I just can't be bothered messing about with the current lights. No interior lighting on Series £s either and that is a royal PITA at times. I am wiring a rear load bay light up for mine.
No sound deadening at all in Series 3s so you can hear literally hear everything. Gearbox and diffs are noisy as hell as well. Think I have probably added about 20Kg of sound deadening to mine. How much difference it will have I don't know. Slow task though.
Mine is the diesel. They are god awful. Slow and very very noisy and they are pretty much the most unpopular engine. Petrol and V8s will always be worth more and a TDI conversion is also worth having as long as its been done well.
As others have said, the steering is pretty vague and not power assisted so its hard work to maneuver in tight spaces. Brakes are pretty bad IMO.
I have set the wheels in motion to put a V8 in mine. Its the dream engine option and rated as one of the best for a Land Rover, but its not a straight forward swap when compared to something like a 200 or 300tdi. Its about time the LR world opened its self up to more conversion options but its such a limited market for people to make the parts.
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
Series 3s are still pretty much the cheapest way into a classic Land Rover, but the prices have been steadily rising for the last few years. As soon as they go VED free they can pretty much double. However as far as I can tell, the government are making it harder for the modded ones to be allowed to go VED free. However it's the nature of the beast that many have different engines and gearboxes.
You say you want a project. Most Series 3s will require some work so my honest advice, is don't bother. If you don't like spending an afternoon tinkering with indicators or trying to get doors to shut properly, then I would honestly stick with what you've got. Expect many many bodges on a S3. Electrics can be a bit of pain. I'm slowly converting all of my lighting to LED. Yes it will upset the purists, but I just can't be bothered messing about with the current lights. No interior lighting on Series £s either and that is a royal PITA at times. I am wiring a rear load bay light up for mine.
No sound deadening at all in Series 3s so you can hear literally hear everything. Gearbox and diffs are noisy as hell as well. Think I have probably added about 20Kg of sound deadening to mine. How much difference it will have I don't know. Slow task though.
Mine is the diesel. They are god awful. Slow and very very noisy and they are pretty much the most unpopular engine. Petrol and V8s will always be worth more and a TDI conversion is also worth having as long as its been done well.
As others have said, the steering is pretty vague and not power assisted so its hard work to maneuver in tight spaces. Brakes are pretty bad IMO.
I have set the wheels in motion to put a V8 in mine. Its the dream engine option and rated as one of the best for a Land Rover, but its not a straight forward swap when compared to something like a 200 or 300tdi. Its about time the LR world opened its self up to more conversion options but its such a limited market for people to make the parts.
bakerstreet said:
Its about time the LR world opened its self up to more conversion options but its such a limited market for people to make the parts.
Not wanting to derail the ops thread. But there are loads of engine options and bits available. Is there a specific engine are wanting?Lots of bits you can buy and have been done in the past. But as with the nature of modifying, most builds are one offs. So any engine swap will require a degree of bespoke parts.
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