Defender or L322
Discussion
Looking to buy my first Defender or L322 ...
Budget £10-20k for Defender or £10k for a L322, owing to the fact Defenders seem to depreciate glacially.
Use ... mainly weekend, trips away, house renovation, camping, ect; in total the 3 cars we have probably cover 10k pa and they cover most bases, if i picked the L322 then i would sell the 166 where as the Defender would be more of a toy.
Aware of the character with Defenders, we have an old Freelander and both loved it, but i am struggling a bit with defenders as there seems so man options, engines, etc, my understanding was that a TD5 would be the pick of the bunch but for my budget you are looking at 100-200k mile examples and it seems a tad rich.
There is lovely one on eBay at the moment, £10,995 in Colwyn Bay, but its 2001 and on 178k.
Budget £10-20k for Defender or £10k for a L322, owing to the fact Defenders seem to depreciate glacially.
Use ... mainly weekend, trips away, house renovation, camping, ect; in total the 3 cars we have probably cover 10k pa and they cover most bases, if i picked the L322 then i would sell the 166 where as the Defender would be more of a toy.
Aware of the character with Defenders, we have an old Freelander and both loved it, but i am struggling a bit with defenders as there seems so man options, engines, etc, my understanding was that a TD5 would be the pick of the bunch but for my budget you are looking at 100-200k mile examples and it seems a tad rich.
There is lovely one on eBay at the moment, £10,995 in Colwyn Bay, but its 2001 and on 178k.
I think you've got it the wrong way round - its the L322s that have depreciated! You can buy one for just over £2000 now, but you won't get a Defender of any age for that price! At least not a driveable one, anyway...
Personally, I'd go L322 as I don't do diesel, but the choice can only be yours, really. The L322 will be a much nicer place to travel in but repair costs can be ruinous. The Defender is a classic and is a lot cheaper to fix when bits break but might be a bit of a challenge on a long motorway journey.
Personally, I'd go L322 as I don't do diesel, but the choice can only be yours, really. The L322 will be a much nicer place to travel in but repair costs can be ruinous. The Defender is a classic and is a lot cheaper to fix when bits break but might be a bit of a challenge on a long motorway journey.
Deranged Rover said:
I think you've got it the wrong way round - its the L322s that have depreciated!
I think that’s what he was getting at when he said Defender depreciation is glacial. ie. very slow moving.But anyway.....
Defender and RR are very different beasts so it’s hard to be objective.
A Defender in any spec is an unrefined lump of a car, and can get very tiring in traffic, on long journeys and definitely on motorways. They just aren’t built for it, even the newer ones.
They rattle lots, let water and wind in and have laughable fuel economy.
But, it’s a Defender.
If you’ve got that itch, it won’t go away until you scratch it. You might like it, you might not, but there’s only one way to find out.
Shop around as there are loads out there and buy on condition. Nothing else matters. A thirty year old 300TDi station wagon will be a far better bet than a five year old Puma-engined utilities company cast-off.
They do rust. Some years worse than others. Chassis, bulkhead and doors.
If you find one on a galv chassis, go for that.
Avoid anything bogged down with aftermarket “performance” tat.
Standard suspension is adequate, and the various engines perform ok and in some cases don’t like home tuning that much.
Parts can be a lottery. What you think will cost a lot can be cheap. Things that you think will be pennies can cost a fortune. (I’m currently refurbishing a pair of front doors for mine, and the interior door cards alone cost more than the lock, latch and handle mechanisms put together)
Maintenance is pretty basic, although you may find yourself investing in some larger tools.
On the plus side, although sluggish a Defender is a real driver’s car, and commands attention as much as higher spec vehicles. I sometimes think of mine as a mini-HGV and it needs helming accordingly.
They are brilliant at the offroady stuff if that’s your thing, only recently being surpassed by the newer Discos and the like.
As well as the standard lockable centre diff, mine has traction control and over marginal terrain it’s like it’s on bloody tracks.
They aren’t massive inside and won’t swallow a huge load especially as the rear door is actually quite small. But you can lob what you want in there and not worry too much about damaging the non-existent interior trim.
They can tow way more than the 3500kgs they’re rated to.
Oh and apparently there’s a lot of snow on its way too.;)
Thanks for the replies, very informative.
Yes correct, i meant L322's depreciate heavily, costs can be ruinous, although the one i drove i really enjoyed.
So essentially, age doesn't matter, condition is everything, the only thing i really wanted was heated seats which seems to be restricted to newer models ....
Main use will be for camping and shooting, plus i just really want one, not too bothered about 90 / 110 as it won't be used for towing.
I used to commute 50km a day in a 1972 RHD Triumph Spitfire (as a daily) on the German Autobahn so discomfort / long distance "slogs" are fine, it had 4 gears and just about managed 70 km/h, so i am sure it is similar.
Engine wise, is there anything specific to look for, i.e. the TD5 one? Would you be put off by mileage?
Yes correct, i meant L322's depreciate heavily, costs can be ruinous, although the one i drove i really enjoyed.
So essentially, age doesn't matter, condition is everything, the only thing i really wanted was heated seats which seems to be restricted to newer models ....
Main use will be for camping and shooting, plus i just really want one, not too bothered about 90 / 110 as it won't be used for towing.
I used to commute 50km a day in a 1972 RHD Triumph Spitfire (as a daily) on the German Autobahn so discomfort / long distance "slogs" are fine, it had 4 gears and just about managed 70 km/h, so i am sure it is similar.
Engine wise, is there anything specific to look for, i.e. the TD5 one? Would you be put off by mileage?
Edited by Lord.Vader on Tuesday 17th December 11:35
A D2 isn’t a Defender. It just isn’t.
They also don’t wear their battle scars well and given what the OP is looking to do with it, a D2 (inside especially) would look very tatty, very soon.
The Td5 is a good engine. Change the oil and filters regularly and they run and run. Timing chain instead of a belt so no bother there.
Just about the only common problem is oil migrating in to the injector loom.
People will tell you this is catastrophic but it isn’t. Replacement looms are around £30 IIRC.
Being ECU-controlled the Td5 can be mapped if that floats your boat and to be fair they can be a bit dull as standard. Swapping the transfer box for one from a Discovery (Series 1) also ups the final drive a bit for motorways.
Going for a Td5 puts you more towards the later stages of Defender’s line so you might find one with factory heated seats (mega-rare though) or just fit aftermarket ones. There are literally thousands of aftermarket bits to bolt on.
300TDi is worth a look too. Bit more analogue and a bit rougher round the edges but just as good.
V8s (quite rare) might sound hideously costly to run but given the increasing criminalisation of diesel they may have longer to live. Many diesel Defenders aren’t LEZ compliant for example.
They also don’t wear their battle scars well and given what the OP is looking to do with it, a D2 (inside especially) would look very tatty, very soon.
The Td5 is a good engine. Change the oil and filters regularly and they run and run. Timing chain instead of a belt so no bother there.
Just about the only common problem is oil migrating in to the injector loom.
People will tell you this is catastrophic but it isn’t. Replacement looms are around £30 IIRC.
Being ECU-controlled the Td5 can be mapped if that floats your boat and to be fair they can be a bit dull as standard. Swapping the transfer box for one from a Discovery (Series 1) also ups the final drive a bit for motorways.
Going for a Td5 puts you more towards the later stages of Defender’s line so you might find one with factory heated seats (mega-rare though) or just fit aftermarket ones. There are literally thousands of aftermarket bits to bolt on.
300TDi is worth a look too. Bit more analogue and a bit rougher round the edges but just as good.
V8s (quite rare) might sound hideously costly to run but given the increasing criminalisation of diesel they may have longer to live. Many diesel Defenders aren’t LEZ compliant for example.
Crossflow Kid said:
A D2 isn’t a Defender. It just isn’t.
They also don’t wear their battle scars well and given what the OP is looking to do with it, a D2 (inside especially) would look very tatty, very soon.
I know, but it's better at Defender things than a Range Rover, and better at Range Rover things than a Defender.They also don’t wear their battle scars well and given what the OP is looking to do with it, a D2 (inside especially) would look very tatty, very soon.
Lord.Vader said:
Looking to buy my first Defender or L322 ...
Budget £10-20k for Defender or £10k for a L322, owing to the fact Defenders seem to depreciate glacially.
Use ... mainly weekend, trips away, house renovation, camping, ect; in total the 3 cars we have probably cover 10k pa and they cover most bases, if i picked the L322 then i would sell the 166 where as the Defender would be more of a toy.
Aware of the character with Defenders, we have an old Freelander and both loved it, but i am struggling a bit with defenders as there seems so man options, engines, etc, my understanding was that a TD5 would be the pick of the bunch but for my budget you are looking at 100-200k mile examples and it seems a tad rich.
There is lovely one on eBay at the moment, £10,995 in Colwyn Bay, but its 2001 and on 178k.
In many ways these are polar opposites. Very different cars, so it will really boil down to how you view them and what you want to do with them.Budget £10-20k for Defender or £10k for a L322, owing to the fact Defenders seem to depreciate glacially.
Use ... mainly weekend, trips away, house renovation, camping, ect; in total the 3 cars we have probably cover 10k pa and they cover most bases, if i picked the L322 then i would sell the 166 where as the Defender would be more of a toy.
Aware of the character with Defenders, we have an old Freelander and both loved it, but i am struggling a bit with defenders as there seems so man options, engines, etc, my understanding was that a TD5 would be the pick of the bunch but for my budget you are looking at 100-200k mile examples and it seems a tad rich.
There is lovely one on eBay at the moment, £10,995 in Colwyn Bay, but its 2001 and on 178k.
The biggest thing you may want to consider is money. Defenders, as you note hold their money very well. This means you can buy one, run it for a bit and sell it on at very low risk.You might even make a quid or two.
The L322 is the complete opposite. Buy it and it will continue to loose money at the moment. And isn't likely to pick up in price for another 20 years yet and then only slowly.
As for the vehicles themselves, this is my take on them. Others may have different views, but I can justify mine by saying I have grown up with Land Rovers. I was driving them around the fields from age 11 (or maybe earlier). My first 'car' was a 300Tdi Defender 90. I currently own 2 Land Rover products and as a family we have probably had in the region of 60 different Land Rover vehicles. All though I would say, I am less experienced with latter and current models.
Defenders - what are they? They are a rugged utility based vehicle. This is of upmost importance to understand
Because many people do not. And as they have become fashion accessories of late, so many buy them for completely the wrong reasons, only to end up selling them weeks or months later. Because they are totally unsuitable for their intended use.
Defenders will never be quiet, refined places to commute. And they have limited interior space for the front passengers, with an upright driving position. They will LEAK, usually water in and oil out. And it is perfectly normal. However they should be pretty dependable and reliable, but they are constructed in a way that requires regular maintenance.
If you are prepared to roll your sleeves up and do some of this work yourself, they can be very very cheap to run and maintain. Parts are cheap and plentiful. And everything, and I mean absolutely everything can be changed, swapped or fixed on them. And usually with nothing more than basic hand tools.
However, if you pay people to work on them, they can be quite labour intensive. It will, for example, take a lot longer to change the discs and pads on a Defender than it will on most other vehicles. Simply due to how the discs attach to the vehicle. And that if stripping bits down, you may want to replace wheel bearings while in there. The parts are cheap, but it might take all day compared to only an hour for a Ford Focus.
If you haven't driven a Defender yet -------------------- make sure you do. Find a local one and test drive it.
Personally I find Defenders very comfortable in terms of seating. I like the steering wheel and pedal locations in relation to the seat. However others do not and if you are tall you may find it cramped in there. And there is nothing you can do to alter this.
NVH is also generally poor on the Defender. The latter Puma models are the best here and are in fact quite acceptable. No worse than a Lotus Elise or Pug 106 for instance. But many people do not get on with a Defender for this reason. They certainly aren't the type of vehicle to want to sit at 70mph+ on the motorway for hours at a time frequently. The aftermarket can make small improvements here, such as more sound proofing and things. But ultimately you will not solve this fundamental design trait, due to the fact the body of a Defender is completely modular and bolts metal to metal onto the chassis.
Land Rover did solve the NVH issue, namely the Discovery 1 and Range Rover classic. These two vehicles are almost identical (quite clever really). But even more surprising is, they are also about 90-95% the same as a Defender under the body. The main difference is the body of a RRC or D1 is a one piece design that sits on rubber donuts to isolate it from the chassis. The NVH and general comfort is massively improved. The cabin is also wider with more space for front passengers.
Thus you can get very much the Defender abilities in a D1 or RRC for less money, but have a better on road vehicle as a result too. So may want to consider this as an extra option too.
The Defender is also comparatively slow compared to modern traffic. The Tdi engines are good, but very unrefined and noisy. The Td5 is a gem of an engine, but prone to a few gremlins and really needs a tune to make the most of it. The 2.4 & 2.2 Puma engines are ok, although a bit soulless. And more complex again like most modern engines.
Anything older 2.5TD or even a V8 won't technically be a "Defender", but are similar. Engine swaps are also easy to perform. So they can be candidates still. But again will depend on your intents.
Body configs can also be swapped pretty easily for the most part. I.e. a hard top can easily be turned into a pickup and vice versa.
I would say, I do find Defenders a lot of fun to drive. You can actually hustle them along at a fair old lick. Sure, they aren't likely to be winning many races. But you'll enjoy your time trying. And they handle a lot better than many give them credit. But a live axle 4x4 will feel very different to a modern car on the road. A Defender should also have great sense of occasion and be very practical for many different tasks.
In summary, as long as you understand the utilitarian nature of the Defender and can accept these traits. They can be very very enjoyable vehicles to own.
In terms of buying. Rust is the biggest issue. All of the oily bits are pretty easy and cheap to replace. The chassis can also be replaced, but it is a fairly big job. I would say age, spec, mileage are of little concern when buying. The most important things should be condition and how it drives.
The L322 however, is a completely different vehicle. It is not rugged at all. It is a luxury 4x4 SUV. It is still capable off road. But it is huge and a lot less rugged. That should you off road one, it could get expensive very quickly. And you'll find, that despite it's clever electronics, it probably won't go as far as a Defender will and certainly not as easily.
On road the L322 feels a lot more "car like". For me personally I find this a major NEGATIVE point. I don't want a 4x4 to feel like a car. I want it to feel like a 4x4
The L322 is immensely capable on the road. And does something only a Range Rover does well, which is waft down the road. However I would say that while driving an L322 can be a pleasing experience. It will be a lot less fun than a Defender will be. But the L322 will allow you to cross continents at speed in supreme comfort.
The L322 for me is also a bit too German inside for my tastes, although there are some nice colour combos. And the L322 is a complex vehicle. So expect issues with sensors and things not working. As a rule the major mechanicals are pretty stout, it is more the array of complexity of the entire vehicle that can cause issues. The early TD6 does have an underspecced weak gearbox however.
If it helps you figure what you are after, think of the Defender being the off road equivalent of a Caterham or Lotus Elise. It is the pinnacle of off the shelf off road performance. However being this specialised and capable comes with compromises. The L322 would be more akin to a Panamera. Still hugely capable, but much less focused and much less compromised.
If you also want to keep your options open. Consider some other vehicles too.
The Jeep Wrangler is a vehicle very similar to the Defender. In fact the Defender is essentially based on in terms that the original Land Rover hails from the original Jeep. Of which the Wrangler is a direct descendant.
The TJ Wrangler is about the same size as a Defender 90, with very similar suspension and very similar capabilities. The biggest difference is, the Defender is more heavily utility based, while the Jeep was aimed at the recreational market. And this results in a few significant differences. The Wrangler can be had with an automatic gearbox or a manual (Defenders are manual only). And you can get a lovely 4.0 straight 6 engine or a 2.5 engine. And things like aircon, electric windows and a more plush interior.
So apart from towing or hauling heavy loads the Wrangler will do everything a Defender 90 will, but slightly better. If you are looking at 110's, then you would need to move up to a JK Wrangler to find a 5 door long wheel base. Again apart from the utility side of things, these will outperform or match a Defender at everything, but may be beyond your budget.
There are other vehicles you could also look at, depending on which direction you want go in. And some that might meet in the middle more so. But I suspect I've rambled on long enough for now
Cheers for the response.
As i mentioned, Defender would be as well as a daily, L322 would replace both.
A Defender would mainly be used for pottering / camping, odd longer trips, we used to do long trips in our Freelander 1, was perfectly comfortable and i loved driving it.
Thanks 300, really interesting stuff, i do appreciate that a Defender is not a car, i see it more like a classic (but i like your C7 / Elise comparison), in that it you can take something, quicker / more comfortable / more economical, blahblah, but taking the Defender that is part of the fun.
I don't really want to spend more than £10k, which doesn't bode well for the Defender it seems, any owners forums, etc i can have a nose on?
Happy to work on it myself too
I do like the Wrangler but i'd go for an older XJ Jeep, will have a proper look though, not looking to buy until after winter.
As i mentioned, Defender would be as well as a daily, L322 would replace both.
A Defender would mainly be used for pottering / camping, odd longer trips, we used to do long trips in our Freelander 1, was perfectly comfortable and i loved driving it.
Thanks 300, really interesting stuff, i do appreciate that a Defender is not a car, i see it more like a classic (but i like your C7 / Elise comparison), in that it you can take something, quicker / more comfortable / more economical, blahblah, but taking the Defender that is part of the fun.
I don't really want to spend more than £10k, which doesn't bode well for the Defender it seems, any owners forums, etc i can have a nose on?
Happy to work on it myself too
I do like the Wrangler but i'd go for an older XJ Jeep, will have a proper look though, not looking to buy until after winter.
Crossflow Kid said:
Dave. said:
I know, but it's better at Defender things than a Range Rover
I think that’s debatable.The D2 is a lot more rugged and can rely a lot less on it's electronics to get places. But it does have vulnerable bodywork for serious off road use.
Lord.Vader said:
i do appreciate that a Defender is not a car, i see it more like a classic (but i like your C7 / Elise comparison)
I’ve got a Defender and a Caterham.The similarities are separated only by scale (and the addition of 4wd in the big one)
If going for the Defender, having it as a second/weekend car certainly makes a lot of sense - there are times when it’ll make no sense at all, or it may be off the road awaiting bits through the post.
Your stated budget of £10k isn’t as gloomy as you might think. That should get you a solid, unmolested, not-seen-much-mud mid to late model Td5.
Weirdly, 110s command proportionally less cash than 90s so you could end up with a lot of truck for the money. If I were shopping for one again I’d look very carefully for a 110. A 90 is really only a two seater once you’ve added bags for a weekend.
If you do go for a long one, be prepared for a turning circle that’ll have oil tanker captains laughing behind your back.
Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 17th December 16:39
300bhp/ton said:
But it does have vulnerable bodywork for serious off road use.
Doesn’t even have to be that serious.The body is massive compared to a Defender, and weighed down with lots of trim, air con and other comfort features.
The departure angle on a D2 is dismal, which is why they nearly all have bashed-in rear corners on the bumpers.
Lord.Vader said:
Cheers for the response.
As i mentioned, Defender would be as well as a daily, L322 would replace both.
A Defender would mainly be used for pottering / camping, odd longer trips, we used to do long trips in our Freelander 1, was perfectly comfortable and i loved driving it.
Thanks 300, really interesting stuff, i do appreciate that a Defender is not a car, i see it more like a classic (but i like your C7 / Elise comparison), in that it you can take something, quicker / more comfortable / more economical, blahblah, but taking the Defender that is part of the fun.
I don't really want to spend more than £10k, which doesn't bode well for the Defender it seems, any owners forums, etc i can have a nose on?
Happy to work on it myself too
I do like the Wrangler but i'd go for an older XJ Jeep, will have a proper look though, not looking to buy until after winter.
The XJ Cherokee is pretty awesome too. Had a couple of them. They aren't much bigger than a D90 on the outside and will do most of the same things (apart from the towing). But again have a lot more comfy interior. The XJ uses essentially the same running gear as the TJ Wrangler, but the XJ is a monoque/unibody vehicle. While the TJ Wrangler is ladder chassis.As i mentioned, Defender would be as well as a daily, L322 would replace both.
A Defender would mainly be used for pottering / camping, odd longer trips, we used to do long trips in our Freelander 1, was perfectly comfortable and i loved driving it.
Thanks 300, really interesting stuff, i do appreciate that a Defender is not a car, i see it more like a classic (but i like your C7 / Elise comparison), in that it you can take something, quicker / more comfortable / more economical, blahblah, but taking the Defender that is part of the fun.
I don't really want to spend more than £10k, which doesn't bode well for the Defender it seems, any owners forums, etc i can have a nose on?
Happy to work on it myself too
I do like the Wrangler but i'd go for an older XJ Jeep, will have a proper look though, not looking to buy until after winter.
I have to say, from what you are saying, it sounds like a Defender would suit more than an L322 would. And due to the residuals, if you relised you'd got it wrong. It would be very easy and cheap to reverse the situation.
As for Defenders. A 110 will generally be cheaper than 90 for some reason. The 110 rides a bit better due to the longer wheelbase, where the 90 can be a bit choppy. But a 110 may have heavy duty rear springs, so might be more bouncy unless loaded. But springs are cheap and easy to change.
The 110 comes in two main formats. The 5 door variant has a 2nd row of seats and a different body tub. The hardtop/pickup/full tilt (soft top) however are all the same and can easily be swapped about.
Defenders were launched in the early 1990's with the Tdi engine. Anything older than this will be a Ninety or One Ten. Largely the same, but a difference worth noting. The older models may well have been rebuilt, so don't discount them. And as said, engine swaps are super easy. Putting a V8 or a Tdi or even a Td5 in one is pretty easy and affordable.
Gearboxes. Ignoring the Puma models, all the others are 5 speed. There have been a 3 different gearboxes, but all are fine. The boxes can need rebuilding, but this is quite affordable and there are specialists able to do this.
They all use the same transfer box for 4wd and low range. When you go to look, make sure it goes into low and diff lock (centre diff lock this is) engages. If it hasn't been off road, then it may be reluctant. Replacement transfer boxes are also pretty cheap and easy to fit however.
Handbrakes work on the transmission, so you will get a lock of rock back and forth when engaged, but it is a good system. However people often neglect them and don't adjust the linkages/shoes. Also the transfer box is prone to leaking, which can impact it's use.
On the subject of oil leaks. Almost all will leak oil on the gearbox and transfer box. Axles can also leak, often the front swivels or on the hubs., The diff centre itself shouldn't be leaking though. Engines can also be a bit oily. None of this should worry you. Seals are cheap and generally easy to replace. Although you'll never stop the leaks fully, so it is just something to accept.
The body work should in general be very good. It is mostly aluminium (actually it's an alloy called Birmabright). However it can dent quite easily and paint can look shabby.
The front bulkhead is prone to rusting, often around the front vents below the windscreen. Repair panels are available. And it is rarely fatal. You can even buy brand new bulkheads, although a little pricey and quite a bit of work to fit.
The front foot wells are also steel and can rust, these too are replaceable however. And the battery tray (under the passenger seat) is prone to rot. But again not something that would stop me buying a vehicle.
Doors are normally ok, although they have a steel frame and tend to rot out along the bottom edge. Part of this is a reaction between the aluminium and steel called electrolysis. Rather than conventional rusting. Doors are pricey to replace, but expect some feathering on the vehicles you are looking at.
Door trims are cheap looking utilitarian plastic. And can look loose & tatty. But is all part of the course really. Door hinges can sag, making door closing needing a bit of a slam. All of these bits can be replaced and tweaked though, so no biggy.
The chassis is the biggest rot area. Although they can take some abuse. Rot normally occurs on the body out riggers (can be replaced in situ) and the rear cross member, which can be replaced as well. Replacement chassis' are available and are usually galvanized (shiny silver), so are easy to spot. A new chassis means the vehicle has been rebuilt though, so make sure it looks right and drives right. As you never really know what has or hasn't been done.
In terms of driving. They have a steering box, so there is some slop in the steering and not a huge amount of feedback. But they should turn in well and be quite fun to throw about. They will lean a bit, although anti roll bars are optional on some years/trims. If it steers all over the place then it probably has some worn components such as the steering box. Again it is replaceable, although a little pricey.
The bushes on the axles/suspension/panhard road can all wear too and make more ponderous on the road. These are all cheap and easy to replace and might be worth budgeting for regardless of what you buy. Likewise shocks and springs are cheap to replace too.
Axles are generally ok. A bit weak if you off road heavily or run much larger than stock tyres. The axles hail from a pre WW2 Rover car!!! But overal they shouldn't really be a problem. Propshafts can wear and clonk, but also very cheap and easy to replace.
Not much in the way of options to look out for. Heated front screens are great, but can easily be retro fitted. Heaters should blow good hot heat, but there little in the way of direction control and the air flow is a little limited. They are fine ain pick up 90 and will get snug and warm easily. In a hardtop or station wagon 110 they can be a little lacking.
Another trait Defenders suffer from is slightly flaky electronics. There really isn't much to the electrics on them, and 99 times out of 100 any electrical issue is a dodgy earth. Sometimes time consuming to bug track, but usually easy to fix overall. Symptoms would be a sidelight out, indicator not working or when you indicate it turns off a headlight type of thing.
Engine wise. The 200 and 300Tdi are very very similar. The 300 is just a cheaper to manufacture variant. Both very good engines and should see over 200,000 miles easily. Also easy to tweak for a bit more power (most probably have been). But they are very agricultural.
V8's are lovely, although in factory form they are quite low powered and don't really out perform the Tdi's. However it is super easy to swap in a 4.0/4.6 from a Disco2/p38 Range Rover. IMO the V8 is the best engine in a Defender. But expect 15-20mpg in return for it. A Tdi is more likely 23-28mpg range with over 30mpg possible.
The Td5 has a few more pitfalls than the Tdi and is could throw it's toys out of the pram. But overall it is a lovely engine and very tunable. Which puts it in a different league to a Tdi. The rest of the vehicle is pretty much the same though, so you are primarily paying for the engine.
The older 2.5 TD is essentially a Tdi engine, but without an intercooler and some of the strengthening bits. Not as quick, a bit quieter due to indirect injection and will trundle along perfectly happily. A 200Tdi is a direct swap pretty much.
Only other differences, TD5's could be optioned with traction control an they should all have ABS. The traction control is actually pretty good off road and will simulate limited slip differentials. But you'll only really notice it for more serious off road use. Air con was also optional on the Td5, although sometimes retro fitted to older models. Tdi's usually struggle with aircon as you'll take a performance dip.
Overall they are pretty easy vehicles to buy and own. Mostly boils down to common sense when buying. I know you mentioned Colwyn Bay earlier. Coastal areas have more salt in the air, so can cause a lot more corrosion than vehicles inland. Also Land Rover make good boat launching vehicles and are often dipped in the sea. If the rear axle and cross member are really crusty, bear this mind. They could still be a good buy depending on price. But if you are looking to buy one to use rather than rebuild, make sure it is solid first.
As for forums, LR4x4.com is quite a good place, although a little quiet these days and generally Defender and off road biased people.
Landyzone is very active, but be aware there are a lot of w
kers on there. You can still get good advice, but use the separate forum sections. i.e. the Anything Goes sections really is just that. If you don't have thick skin, I'd avoid completely.As for alternatives, I'd still say have a look at Wranglers. They hold their money well too, but are a bit more affordable for a TJ. The only other vehicle that is really Defender like is the Santana PS-10. Santana used to build vehicles under licence from Land Rover and then developed their own variants. A few years ago there were quite a few for sale and you still find them on ebay.
The PS-10 is very 110 like, although it is actually a development of the Series III 109. They key thing is, you'll be able to buy one for a lot less money than a Defender and end up with something very similar overall.
The key differences are:
-no seat box in the front, so a bit more room
-a more plasticky dash, but still pretty good
-2wd option on the same Land Rover LT230 transfer box
-2.8 litre Iveco engine (a good engine, more akin to the Td5 than a Tdi)
-Leaf suspension (it is parabolic leaves though, so rides almost as well as a 110 and very good off road)
-Re-designed rear tub and door that is wide enough for a euro pallet (a Defender isn't)
The PS-10 uses lots and lots of standard Land Rover parts, so should be easy to maintain. The only bits I think were difficult when I look last were the brake discs, as they are unique to Santana. But this might not be a problem. And I think you could fairly easily convert them to Defender discs as the axles are still Land Rover.
I think Defenders are way overpriced currently and if anything at all happens to the classic market you'll take a massive hit. And even if the classic market is stable there's still a good possibility of an adjustment.
They're also, IME/O pretty terrible road cars.
Personally, given the criteria, I'd be looking at RRCs.
They're also, IME/O pretty terrible road cars.
Personally, given the criteria, I'd be looking at RRCs.
Bill said:
Personally, given the criteria, I'd be looking at RRCs.
Have you seen the price of them lately?Getting silly now. Early restored ones are breaking six figures now, and even mediocre unrestored examples within budget would take some searching for.
On balance of budget and intended use/itch-scratching a Defender is the way forward.
And of course they’re not good road cars.
Then again, my Caterham is also pretty poor at towing.
Edited by anonymous-user on Thursday 19th December 22:44
Bill said:
I think Defenders are way overpriced currently and if anything at all happens to the classic market you'll take a massive hit. And even if the classic market is stable there's still a good possibility of an adjustment.
They're also, IME/O pretty terrible road cars.
Personally, given the criteria, I'd be looking at RRCs.
I don't personally think the Defender fits into the obvious "classic car" market per se. They may tick several of the boxes of a classic car description, but they're really a different entity all of their own. Will prices hold/stabilise/fall? Who knows. But the comment above about the difference between a Defender and an RRC are correct, you need to spend a decent amount of cash to get a drive-away RRC and the other very significant point is that they hide their rot VERY well until you start scratching under the surface, so unless you have a documented rebuild (and pay £££ to suit) it's likely that you'll be ripping it apart to have it welded sometime fairly soon.They're also, IME/O pretty terrible road cars.
Personally, given the criteria, I'd be looking at RRCs.
Until last year I had D90, an RRC, an L322 and a D1 V8. I now have a different L322 and the Defender. The D1 donated it's vital organs to the Defender which now runs a 3.9 V8 auto, and the RRC, well, I concluded that whilst both the Defender and the RRC were going to need significant amounts of further work over the years, the Defender was not only easier to work on but also just simply more fun to own (for me - as per posts above, I "get" them). So the RRC went to a new home.
Lord.Vader said:
not too bothered about 90 / 110 as it won't be used for towing.
If you do go for a Defender, drive both variants before you make a decision. Depending on where you plan to use it, the 110 is a bit of a sod to park, due to size and steering lock, so you need to be sure you actually need the additional capacity/seating.CAPP0 said:
the additional capacity/seating.
Also have a good look at the V5 to see exactly what you’re buying.Early Defenders can have up to 12 seats.
Later ones dwindled to just seven due to increasingly tight legislation regarding side facing seats, lap belts and so on.
Make sure you’re not buying a truck that’s simply had additional seats fitted. It ISN’T possible to retrofit more than the factory-fit number of seats for a given model year.
Also be aware, what looks like a station wagon (with windows and seats) may have left Lode Lane as a van and thus attract all sorts of nonsense when it comes to things like tolls.
Well... If the Defender falls into the category of "I've always fancied one", then frankly only a Defender will scratch that itch. If that's the case, then go and test drive a couple of them first as it's very much a 'Marmite' car, not just for the driving experience but also for comfort.
If you end up with your heart set on a Defender, get yourself one which has been well looked after and don't let yourself get carried away with (or distracted by) 'bling'.
The L322 however, is completely different and a much better proposition for regular use. IMO The TDV8 is one of the best engines ever fitted to these cars, closely followed by the Supercharged. For your budget, you should get a really nice '08-'09 TDV8 with lots of toys and enough change to get yourself a second set of wheels with winter tyres.
M
If you end up with your heart set on a Defender, get yourself one which has been well looked after and don't let yourself get carried away with (or distracted by) 'bling'.
The L322 however, is completely different and a much better proposition for regular use. IMO The TDV8 is one of the best engines ever fitted to these cars, closely followed by the Supercharged. For your budget, you should get a really nice '08-'09 TDV8 with lots of toys and enough change to get yourself a second set of wheels with winter tyres.
M
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