Test driving a Defender

[sgreenham]

Hi, I’m thinking of getting a Defender 90 (my first 4x4) and just have a quick question... when it comes to test driving a Defender I realise I need to check that the diffs all work as expected but I was just wondering how I go about doing that? I understand that I need to select 4H and 4L etc but is it obvious when everything is working? I understand 4L will be fairly obvious but will I be I be able to tell everything is working as expected?

Thanks for your help.

[LimaDelta]

Have you driven a Defender before? If not, prepare to come away from the test drive convinced it is broken. It's probably not, but they are a fairly 'unique' motoring experience. Vague steering, whining transmission, leaks, rattles, smells. All part of the experience.

[madcal]

Depending on how old it is and how often High/Low Range / Diff Lock has been used you may find you struggle to move the lever. If it is 20 years old it could be totally seized however this is a simple fix.

If you can engage Low Range and it drives along (slowly) then it works.

If you put diff lock on you will find it does not corner so well on tarmac so don't drive quickly just test it and it will feel different.

However gearboxes are generally not the issue.

You want to check for rust underneath (there will be plenty of surface rust even after 1 winter); look for anything penetrating, the surface stuff doesn't matter.

There will be oil leaks, this is part of the automatic-rust-prevention system underneath.

Check all the electrical items as earthing issues are common and either a 2 minute or a lifetime to trace.

Be prepared for how agricultural they are to drive but this is part of the charm.

And don't forget to wave to every other Defender/Series you see, this is mandatory and seem as extremely bad form if you do not.

[300bhp/ton]

LimaDelta said:

Have you driven a Defender before? If not, prepare to come away from the test drive convinced it is broken. It's probably not, but they are a fairly 'unique' motoring experience. Vague steering, whining transmission, leaks, rattles, smells. All part of the experience.

I would say this is very misleading.

Gearboxes are either the same as used in loads of other cars, such as Rover saloons, TVR & Triumph sports car and other LR products. Or if its a late model it is the same box as used in the Ford Mustang.

And a Defender drives about 98% the same as a Range Rover Classic or Discovery 1 as they share a huge amount of parts. The steering is also on par with any other 4x4 that uses a steering box.

[300bhp/ton]

sgreenham said:

Hi, I’m thinking of getting a Defender 90 (my first 4x4) and just have a quick question... when it comes to test driving a Defender I realise I need to check that the diffs all work as expected but I was just wondering how I go about doing that? I understand that I need to select 4H and 4L etc but is it obvious when everything is working? I understand 4L will be fairly obvious but will I be I be able to tell everything is working as expected?

Thanks for your help.

What sort of age vehicle are you looking at?

Are you actually looking for an off roader to go off road? If not, then there are frankly better on road 4x4's you could be looking at.

Defenders use mostly the same parts or same design as a Range Rover does (classic model) or a Discovery 1. The difference is the Defender has worse NVH and less interior space. Generally making them less comfortable and more noisy to be in.

As for checking diffs. The axle diffs are 'open' and you will not be able to check them, they do nothing any different to any other open diff. The axle may leak some oil, but this is generally not an issue and quite common.

The transfer box is the same on all Defenders, it is the LT230 (Leyland Transmission). It is a very good transfer box and generally very stout.

It does two things:

1. It splits power front and rear to each axle. It does this by an open differential, thus allowing the front and rear wheels to spin at different speeds for road use. Off road or on slippery surfaces you will want to 'lock' the centre diff. This is done moving the small lever to the left. A light should come on on the dash. If this hasn't been used much it may not engage, or may engage but no light. Often the linkage is just seized a bit, but they can wear also.

You can test if the diff is locked if you jack up a wheel, with it locked it won't rotate with the car in Neutral. With it open you will be able to rotate it. You can also feel the diff through the steering on high grip surfaces, but this can lead to transmission wind-up and potential damage.

Sometimes difflock won't disengage easily when you move the lever back. Driving on the road will normally free it up, or sharply reverse in straight line for 10 yards and brake abruptly. Then pull away forwards.

2. High and low range gear sets. High range is for normal road use, low range for when increased wheel torque and greater control are required. Typically off roading, but also in snow or backing up a trailer. This is done my moving the small gear stick either forwards or backwards. The car needs to be stationary (or under 5mph) and put your foot on the clutch, it should make a clunk when engaged and pulling away in low 1st will be immediately obvious if it is selected, or if you are in neutral. Sometimes it may not select smoothly, putting the vehicle in -gear and gently riding the clutch with just above idle rpm can help it select if it doesn't want to.


The ratio selector and diff lock can be used in any combination.

[madcal]

300bhp/ton said:

I would say this is very misleading.

Gearboxes are either the same as used in loads of other cars, such as Rover saloons, TVR & Triumph sports car and other LR products. Or if its a late model it is the same box as used in the Ford Mustang.

And a Defender drives about 98% the same as a Range Rover Classic or Discovery 1 as they share a huge amount of parts. The steering is also on par with any other 4x4 that uses a steering box.

I think the point is that when you drive one, do not expect it to feel like a Golf (or a Mustang). I have several Series 2/2a's and one of the last Defender 90s. The Defender is a much nicer drive than the Series but a Golf is a much nicer drive than a Defender (until it gets stuck then the Defender wins). I did 200 miles in my Defender on the motorway on Sunday morning and came away quite happy so they do work.

I would defend the Defender with my dying breath and will always own at least one!

These posts are about expectation management.

[Dixy]

Apply the hand brake fully if the car fails to roll away there is something seriously wrong. If oil is not leaking from any part that should contain oil then that component has been run dry.

[madcal]

sgreenham said:

Hi, I’m thinking of getting a Defender 90 (my first 4x4) and just have a quick question... when it comes to test driving a Defender I realise I need to check that the diffs all work as expected but I was just wondering how I go about doing that? I understand that I need to select 4H and 4L etc but is it obvious when everything is working? I understand 4L will be fairly obvious but will I be I be able to tell everything is working as expected?

Thanks for your help.

PS if you let us know your budget then you will likely get more help (if you are spending £35k on a nearly new one vs £5k on a 30 year old one the advice would vary [although not a lot since Defenders didn't change much in that period]).

[sgreenham]

Thank you four the very useful replies, I’m looking at spending about £20k ish on a 2010 Puma engined defender which I will use for some light green laning in the future and for general driving around with a muddy dog in the back. I totally understand there are plenty of other 4x4s that may do the job better but when you want a Defender only a Defender will do. I did drive one years ago when I was much younger, it was a 90 pickup and it was awful to drive but it hasn’t stopped me wanting one. I’ve done plenty of research regarding rust so I feel fairly well prepared to look for that but having never owned a 4x4 with actual levers to control things such as diff lock I thought it best I ask for some advice. Can the centre diff be locked when travelling or do I have to be stationary? Thanks again

[300bhp/ton]

sgreenham said:

Thank you four the very useful replies, I’m looking at spending about £20k ish on a 2010 Puma engined defender which I will use for some light green laning in the future and for general driving around with a muddy dog in the back. I totally understand there are plenty of other 4x4s that may do the job better but when you want a Defender only a Defender will do. I did drive one years ago when I was much younger, it was a 90 pickup and it was awful to drive but it hasn’t stopped me wanting one. I’ve done plenty of research regarding rust so I feel fairly well prepared to look for that but having never owned a 4x4 with actual levers to control things such as diff lock I thought it best I ask for some advice. Can the centre diff be locked when travelling or do I have to be stationary? Thanks again

The centre diff can be engaged at any speed, however as it locks the front and rear driveshafts together, you won't want to use it as speed on a grippy surface.

Defenders are cool, I've been about them all my life. And due to strong residuals they can offer cheap total ownership, as you can get back most/all of your money when you sell them on.

I would say however, for most people a Discovery or Range Rover is likely to be a preferred place to sit for normal driving. While still feeling very Defender like. Something to maybe consider.

[LimaDelta]

300bhp/ton said:

LimaDelta said:

Have you driven a Defender before? If not, prepare to come away from the test drive convinced it is broken. It's probably not, but they are a fairly 'unique' motoring experience. Vague steering, whining transmission, leaks, rattles, smells. All part of the experience.

I would say this is very misleading.

Gearboxes are either the same as used in loads of other cars, such as Rover saloons, TVR & Triumph sports car and other LR products. Or if its a late model it is the same box as used in the Ford Mustang.

And a Defender drives about 98% the same as a Range Rover Classic or Discovery 1 as they share a huge amount of parts. The steering is also on par with any other 4x4 that uses a steering box.

Who the fk drives a Rover, TVR or Triumph these days? That's probably less than 1% of all the vehicles on the road (and most of them will be in bits in an oily shed). My point is that if you are under 40 and your driving experience is based on modern hatches (like 99% of people) then a Defender, even a Puma, will probably shock you.

Your argument from what I can gather is that if you drive equally antiquated machinery then the Defender is not that bad? Of course not, but most people don't.

[300bhp/ton]

LimaDelta said:

Who the fk drives a Rover, TVR or Triumph these days? That's probably less than 1% of all the vehicles on the road (and most of them will be in bits in an oily shed). My point is that if you are under 40 and your driving experience is based on modern hatches (like 99% of people) then a Defender, even a Puma, will probably shock you.

Your argument from what I can gather is that if you drive equally antiquated machinery then the Defender is not that bad? Of course not, but most people don't.

Judging by the posts on this forum, a lot of the PH community drive such vehicles.

And no Defenders don't "drive" bad, even compared to modern vehicles. Almost all modern UK market pickups still use leaf rear suspension and similar steering to a Defender. NVH and passenger space along with the body construction are the biggest differences on a Defender vs modern cars. But none of these items actually impact how it goes, stops or steers.

[LimaDelta]

300bhp/ton said:

LimaDelta said:

Who the fk drives a Rover, TVR or Triumph these days? That's probably less than 1% of all the vehicles on the road (and most of them will be in bits in an oily shed). My point is that if you are under 40 and your driving experience is based on modern hatches (like 99% of people) then a Defender, even a Puma, will probably shock you.

Your argument from what I can gather is that if you drive equally antiquated machinery then the Defender is not that bad? Of course not, but most people don't.

Judging by the posts on this forum, a lot of the PH community drive such vehicles.

And no Defenders don't "drive" bad, even compared to modern vehicles. Almost all modern UK market pickups still use leaf rear suspension and similar steering to a Defender. NVH and passenger space along with the body construction are the biggest differences on a Defender vs modern cars. But none of these items actually impact how it goes, stops or steers.

I was wrong, not even 1%. Even generously counting Triumph bikes, your holy trinity only accounts for 0.6% of all the cars in the UK. Hardly relevant to most PH members let alone the wider public.

Most people have never experienced anything as objectively 'bad' as a Defender. And I say that as someone who likes them.

EDIT - Take a look at the OP's garage to see what vehicles he has experience of. Coming from any of those, the Defender is going to be very different.

Edited by LimaDelta on Wednesday 24th April 13:02

[300bhp/ton]

LimaDelta said:

I was wrong, not even 1%. Even generously counting Triumph bikes, your holy trinity only accounts for 0.6% of all the cars in the UK. Hardly relevant to most PH members let alone the wider public.

Most people have never experienced anything as objectively 'bad' as a Defender. And I say that as someone who likes them.

EDIT - Take a look at the OP's garage to see what vehicles he has experience of. Coming from any of those, the Defender is going to be very different.

Edited by LimaDelta on Wednesday 24th April 13:02

If the op was considering a Jeep Wrangler or a Ford Ranger the experience would likely be quite similar. I'm in no way saying a Defender drives like a 2019 fwd hatchback. But just because they don't, doesn't mean they are bad.

The Ranger even uses the same engines and gearbox as the Defender that the op is considering.

[C Lee Farquar]

I have a leased Ranger Wildtrak and a Puma XS.

The Wildtrak is quicker and quieter. The Defender seats are more comfortable, the ride is far better. The Wildtrak is comically bad if you try spirited driving.

I much prefer the Defender, I loth the Ranger constantly demanding I put my seatbelt on, demanding Adblue in countless miles, it's like a second wife with a bad attitude. It's always bleeping and complaining. The Defender offers you basic information and assumes you are intelligent enough to act on it if you see fit.

[CAPP0]

300bhp/ton said:

And a Defender drives about 98% the same as a Range Rover Classic or Discovery 1 as they share a huge amount of parts. The steering is also on par with any other 4x4 that uses a steering box.

Having owned all three, all V8 (I still have the Defender, obviously ) I beg to differ. The Disco & RRC are much smoother and less rattley. But as above, I once found myself without a Landie for a while and that had to be rectified! Never again!

[300bhp/ton]

CAPP0 said:

Having owned all three, all V8 (I still have the Defender, obviously ) I beg to differ. The Disco & RRC are much smoother and less rattley. But as above, I once found myself without a Landie for a while and that had to be rectified! Never again!

Lol, less rattles maybe and the smoothness is the better NVH.

The big difference is the RRC and D1 uses a 1 piece body tub. It mounts to the chassis by sitting on rubber isolating donuts. A Defender uses a multi section body that is all bolted together and contains little strength and flexes a lot. It also mounts metal to metal directly to the chassis.

This is why an RRC/D1 are actually much nicer places to sit. The 100” wheelbase also rides better than the 92.9” Ninety wheelbase.

These points aside however. The Defender/RRC/D1 all share the same basic chassis design and layout (the Defender chassis is a bit deeper and more HD between the axles). The rails are the same size with the same spacing and thickness.

The axles and diffs are all the same and interchangeable. The steering columns and boxes are pretty much the same. The shocks and springs are all interchangeable. Typically RR’s ran softer springs than the Defenders. Latter D1’s run heavier rear springs.

Anti roll bars are the same. Although they don’t all run them.

Manual gearboxes are the same apart from the top linkage and bellhousing. Except for the 6 speed MT-82, which was never fitted to the RR/D1.

Defender and Disco share the same transfer box. Many of the engines have been the same also.

Mechanically they are all so similar the biggest differences are perception than anything else.

[camel_landy]

300bhp/ton said:

I would say this is very misleading.

Gearboxes are either the same as used in loads of other cars, such as Rover saloons, TVR & Triumph sports car and other LR products. Or if its a late model it is the same box as used in the Ford Mustang.

Yep, I'd agree your statement is pretty misleading.

A quick look at the OP's profile will show a list of mainly transverse engined hatchbacks... I would suggest little or no experience of even sitting in one of those cars, let alone driving one!!

TBH - If you have never driven one or don't know your way around one, you're probably better off taking someone along who 'knows' them as they are a lot different to your average car. At very least, see if you can take one out for a test drive at a main dealer, just so you know what one _should_ be like.

M

[camel_landy]

300bhp/ton said:

CAPP0 said:

Having owned all three, all V8 (I still have the Defender, obviously ) I beg to differ. The Disco & RRC are much smoother and less rattley. But as above, I once found myself without a Landie for a while and that had to be rectified! Never again!

Lol, less rattles maybe and the smoothness is the better NVH.

The big difference is the RRC and D1 uses a 1 piece body tub. It mounts to the chassis by sitting on rubber isolating donuts. A Defender uses a multi section body that is all bolted together and contains little strength and flexes a lot. It also mounts metal to metal directly to the chassis.

This is why an RRC/D1 are actually much nicer places to sit. The 100” wheelbase also rides better than the 92.9” Ninety wheelbase.

These points aside however. The Defender/RRC/D1 all share the same basic chassis design and layout (the Defender chassis is a bit deeper and more HD between the axles). The rails are the same size with the same spacing and thickness.

The axles and diffs are all the same and interchangeable. The steering columns and boxes are pretty much the same. The shocks and springs are all interchangeable. Typically RR’s ran softer springs than the Defenders. Latter D1’s run heavier rear springs.

Anti roll bars are the same. Although they don’t all run them.

Manual gearboxes are the same apart from the top linkage and bellhousing. Except for the 6 speed MT-82, which was never fitted to the RR/D1.

Defender and Disco share the same transfer box. Many of the engines have been the same also.

Mechanically they are all so similar the biggest differences are perception than anything else.

WTF???

How about keeping it on-topic??

M

[300bhp/ton]

camel_landy said:

WTF???

How about keeping it on-topic??

M

What was off topic?