Build me the ultimate budget off roader
Discussion
Ok, so I'm selling my Corvette and if I'm lucky it should sell fairly soon. If I get what I want for it I should have around £7000 to spend on it's replacement. I've been torn between options for a replacement - a Westfield, a '50 panhead Harley and an off roader. The only criteria being that it's fun and will fit in my back yard.
I've settled on the idea of a Land Rover for off road capers coupled with the practicality of having something I can use when the weather is too bad for the TVR or if I need to lug something heavy somewhere.
The question is, what can I do with 7 grand? My ideal would be one of those truck cab 90s you see on safari programs with the roll cages, snorkels, crazy suspension, lights, winches etc. I've been looking around and am really unsure about what is realistic. It seems with Land Rovers you can get 2 that seem virtually identical, maybe slightly different age or mileage, but one will be £1000 and the other £10,000.
It would need to be a 90 or less to fit in the yard. I prefer truck cab, but they seem more expensive than hard tops? I've been looking at www.scorpionracing.com, but they don't have prices on anything. Are their products realistic with my price limitations?
The other thing is deciding the difference between what I want and what I need. I'm planning on joining a local 4x4 club doing forrests, old quarries that kind of thing. Would I be better spending £7000 on the best stock Defender I can get or £2000 on something cheap and £5000 on suspension mods and accessories? Or hang on until a ready modded one comes up on Ebay?
It's all so confusing.
I've settled on the idea of a Land Rover for off road capers coupled with the practicality of having something I can use when the weather is too bad for the TVR or if I need to lug something heavy somewhere.
The question is, what can I do with 7 grand? My ideal would be one of those truck cab 90s you see on safari programs with the roll cages, snorkels, crazy suspension, lights, winches etc. I've been looking around and am really unsure about what is realistic. It seems with Land Rovers you can get 2 that seem virtually identical, maybe slightly different age or mileage, but one will be £1000 and the other £10,000.
It would need to be a 90 or less to fit in the yard. I prefer truck cab, but they seem more expensive than hard tops? I've been looking at www.scorpionracing.com, but they don't have prices on anything. Are their products realistic with my price limitations?
The other thing is deciding the difference between what I want and what I need. I'm planning on joining a local 4x4 club doing forrests, old quarries that kind of thing. Would I be better spending £7000 on the best stock Defender I can get or £2000 on something cheap and £5000 on suspension mods and accessories? Or hang on until a ready modded one comes up on Ebay?
It's all so confusing.
Heres a pic of my new toy it has fox racing shocks and with the original engine did 0to60 in under 6 seconds ( modified 4.6 V8) I am installing a new 4.2 v8 so wont be as fast but should be ok. 
Hope to race it with these guys www.norc.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/index.html
Hope to race it with these guys www.norc.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/index.html
Hello,
£7000 should buy a nice 90 truck cab. Go for a TDi, preferably a 300 TDi as it is an "improved" version of the earlier 200 TDi. Forget Scorpion Racing dislocating suspension (or any other make for that matter) it is a fashionable gimmick and does very little for traction or stability when off-road. If a spring is dislocated the only pressure applied to that wheel is via leverage along the axle; this is nowhere near enough force to allow traction to be maintained. If you must have "extreme" suspension travel have a look at Safari Gard website.
Matt
£7000 should buy a nice 90 truck cab. Go for a TDi, preferably a 300 TDi as it is an "improved" version of the earlier 200 TDi. Forget Scorpion Racing dislocating suspension (or any other make for that matter) it is a fashionable gimmick and does very little for traction or stability when off-road. If a spring is dislocated the only pressure applied to that wheel is via leverage along the axle; this is nowhere near enough force to allow traction to be maintained. If you must have "extreme" suspension travel have a look at Safari Gard website.
Matt
WLAcopilote said:
Hello,
Forget Scorpion Racing dislocating suspension (or any other make for that matter)
I totally agree. A pair of diff locks and mud tyres will get you everywhere you need to ever go.
Dislocation suspension is a worthless gimmik
A 300tdi truckcab sounds like a good bet. If you could get one with some of the extras already on it would save you a lot of money as they are not cheap to buy or in some cases ( roll cage / diff locks ) fit
Pete
Thanks for the info. You've given me something to think about.
I'd never really given much thought to the fact that having a wheel on the ground isn't much use if there is no weight on it. It just seemed natural, escecially when you see all the off roaders with that setup. So, best spending 'mod money' on diff locks, diff/steering guards and that sort of thing.
I'd never seen those Dakar 4x4s before, but they look really, really good. I'm looking at the owner's club and stuff now. Could be a real contender. Loses out on the practiaclity side, not being able to haul stuff about, but on the upside I won't be stuck spending my Saturdays helping relatives move house
I'd never really given much thought to the fact that having a wheel on the ground isn't much use if there is no weight on it. It just seemed natural, escecially when you see all the off roaders with that setup. So, best spending 'mod money' on diff locks, diff/steering guards and that sort of thing.
I'd never seen those Dakar 4x4s before, but they look really, really good. I'm looking at the owner's club and stuff now. Could be a real contender. Loses out on the practiaclity side, not being able to haul stuff about, but on the upside I won't be stuck spending my Saturdays helping relatives move house
The club web page was updated last night with one for sale, although probably not the best example ive seen (non std bumpers etc)
www.dakar4x4.co.uk/forsale/forsale.htm
Eliot.
www.dakar4x4.co.uk/forsale/forsale.htm
Eliot.
Yeah, I spent some time looking at the owner's club site this afternoon. I saw that one for sale. I not overly keen on the none standard bumpers (£400 for stock replacements?), but it does seem to be a decent amount of car for the money. And I think when the summer comes I'd rather be in that with the roof and doors off than a regular Land Rover...
Wonder wether the guy would be interested in a Corvette...
Wonder wether the guy would be interested in a Corvette...
Ive never looked at that one personally, so cant comment on the build quality. There are a few rough examples around and some really nice ones. But in my opinion they must have the original bumpers and Corbeau seats as a minimum. Some are 4 seaters or like mine, just two.
That one has only got the 3.5 rover with the 4 speed manual - a reliable combination, but wont set your pants on fire. I had a 3.9/4 speed and went straight to 5.7/3sp auto. A 4.6efi on a 4speed auto would be a nice combo.
Might be worth posting on the Dakar4x4 yahoo message group, as there may be someone else thinking of selling.
Or why not build your own? Get yourself a scabby range rover with a decent chassis, they arn't difficult to build, no major fabrication required, i done mine in a single garage.
That one has only got the 3.5 rover with the 4 speed manual - a reliable combination, but wont set your pants on fire. I had a 3.9/4 speed and went straight to 5.7/3sp auto. A 4.6efi on a 4speed auto would be a nice combo.
Might be worth posting on the Dakar4x4 yahoo message group, as there may be someone else thinking of selling.
Or why not build your own? Get yourself a scabby range rover with a decent chassis, they arn't difficult to build, no major fabrication required, i done mine in a single garage.
psimpson7 said:
Hello,
Forget Scorpion Racing dislocating suspension (or any other make for that matter)
I totally agree. A pair of diff locks and mud tyres will get you everywhere you need to ever go.
Dislocation suspension is a worthless gimmik
Pete
Have to disagree.
A 90 with a 2" lift, lockers and BFG's couldn't follow me here!!
My springs dislocated but were not scorpion.
It may have helped having dislocating three link on the front aswell!!!
Gah! I'm more confused than ever. I've been discussing the dislocating suspension with a friend and I can't decide either way. I understand the point that without weight on the wheel it will not be much use, but since the axle is solid (or at least the drive shafts are located withing a solid tube) won't some of the weight be transfered down that? Sort of treating the angled axle like a prop, holding the chassis up?
What about regular suspension lifts that don't have dislocating springs? Any use at all?
There has been a slight change of plans. It looks like I'm only going to have £6000 to spend, but the upside is that it may be able to be spent a lot sooner than I'd thought (read: next couple of days). What would your sugestions be for the money? ie Base vehicle, modifications, equipment etc etc.
Also, and this may just be my sensible head taking over here, would it be wise to hold some of this money back to be spent on a 4x4 instruction day or Land Rover Experience day or something? Bear in mind I have no 4x4 experience. I wouldn;t want to spent all my money on a new toy and end up upside down in a ditch first time I take it out. Or sould I just take it slow and easy and take advice from the other more experienced people I'd be out with?
What about regular suspension lifts that don't have dislocating springs? Any use at all?
There has been a slight change of plans. It looks like I'm only going to have £6000 to spend, but the upside is that it may be able to be spent a lot sooner than I'd thought (read: next couple of days). What would your sugestions be for the money? ie Base vehicle, modifications, equipment etc etc.
Also, and this may just be my sensible head taking over here, would it be wise to hold some of this money back to be spent on a 4x4 instruction day or Land Rover Experience day or something? Bear in mind I have no 4x4 experience. I wouldn;t want to spent all my money on a new toy and end up upside down in a ditch first time I take it out. Or sould I just take it slow and easy and take advice from the other more experienced people I'd be out with?
I would venture the opinion that the chap in the 90 with a 2" lift, differential locks and BFG's wasn't using the vehicle correctly, also I think that BFG’s are over-rated – there are much better off-road biased tyres out there (Black Star, Fedima, Simex) – who needs an off-road tyre rated over 75mph in the UK?
Dislocating suspension results in a vehicle with no roll-control on that axle other than by the dampers. System stiffness is very low (unless the dampers are too stiff which then makes dampers your articulation enemy, not the springs). A secondary problem with having too much axle travel at the rear (more specifically related to suspension with rear lower links and upper “A-frame”) is that excessive droop travel results in rear-axle steer and, worse, the lower wheel jacking up the car when torque is applied (supposing it has sufficient adhesion to find grip). Read the Twist-off report on the Yellow Defender website; a large team of US Land Rover enthusiasts and research students / engineers spent a lot of time assessing various suspension set-ups. Also see Chris Hinkle’s website (accessed via owner’s bios on D-90.com).
Matt
Dislocating suspension results in a vehicle with no roll-control on that axle other than by the dampers. System stiffness is very low (unless the dampers are too stiff which then makes dampers your articulation enemy, not the springs). A secondary problem with having too much axle travel at the rear (more specifically related to suspension with rear lower links and upper “A-frame”) is that excessive droop travel results in rear-axle steer and, worse, the lower wheel jacking up the car when torque is applied (supposing it has sufficient adhesion to find grip). Read the Twist-off report on the Yellow Defender website; a large team of US Land Rover enthusiasts and research students / engineers spent a lot of time assessing various suspension set-ups. Also see Chris Hinkle’s website (accessed via owner’s bios on D-90.com).
Matt
WLAcopilote said:
I would venture the opinion that the chap in the 90 with a 2" lift, differential locks and BFG's wasn't using the vehicle correctly, also I think that BFG’s are over-rated – there are much better off-road biased tyres out there (Black Star, Fedima, Simex) – who needs an off-road tyre rated over 75mph in the UK?
Dislocating suspension results in a vehicle with no roll-control on that axle other than by the dampers. System stiffness is very low (unless the dampers are too stiff which then makes dampers your articulation enemy, not the springs). A secondary problem with having too much axle travel at the rear (more specifically related to suspension with rear lower links and upper “A-frame”) is that excessive droop travel results in rear-axle steer and, worse, the lower wheel jacking up the car when torque is applied (supposing it has sufficient adhesion to find grip). Read the Twist-off report on the Yellow Defender website; a large team of US Land Rover enthusiasts and research students / engineers spent a lot of time assessing various suspension set-ups. Also see Chris Hinkle’s website (accessed via owner’s bios on D-90.com).
Matt
The guy in the 90 is no novice believe me!
I can see that in your type of off roading long travel suspension would be useless and dangerous but I don't think you can catagorically say that it and dislocation are gimmicks. Look at the picture above. With little effort the white 90 could be pushed over. Could you say the same about mine? No. Why? Because all wheels are in contact with the ground, so your statement about stability seems a little misguided.
My prefered off roading is rock climbing a tight tracks (as above) in which the bigger the travel the further the travelled seems to be the norm. I've been modding LRs for some time now and even went to the states (on honeymoon, oops) with the sole intention of visiting Safari Gard.
I like a lot of people believed what was being spouted by others about the perfect set up. It's only when you get out and see other cars being used and try out things for youself do you get an idea of whats best.
It's a big learning process i'm afraid so be prepared to spend money!!!!!
After 5 offroad LR's, believe me, TVR ownership is lighter on the wallet.
Hi Chelsea tractor!
My type of “off-roading” is Green laning, I’ve been “doing it” for sixteen years; ten in an 88” leaf-sprung and the rest in the 100” Bowler I built. The Marches Laning Group spend most of their time green laning in the Forest of Dean, Wales and Shropshire….My 100” Bowler is regularly used on narrow, rocky tracks, often with large drops. The car has excellent suspension travel (it had 14” vertical travel at each (wheel) corner before I fitted longer travel DeCarbon dampers-I’d attach a picture but don’t know how). I use blue/white springs at the front and green/pink progressive at the rear with the dampers concentric to the springs. The springs are positively located at both ends at the rear (race derived practice). It has low overall height (good for tight, overgrown lanes), has excellent ground clearance and weighs 1300kgs.
The other Bowler 100 I worked on and competed in had a different set-up – the rear axle used front radius arms an a panhard rod – this controls wheel hop better at speed and provides better roll stiffness. That car used 12” Fox remote reservoir dampers – we won our class and group in the French TT championship. If you fancy some green laning in the Marches drop me an email via the GLASS website – I’m the Worcestershire rep.
Matt
My type of “off-roading” is Green laning, I’ve been “doing it” for sixteen years; ten in an 88” leaf-sprung and the rest in the 100” Bowler I built. The Marches Laning Group spend most of their time green laning in the Forest of Dean, Wales and Shropshire….My 100” Bowler is regularly used on narrow, rocky tracks, often with large drops. The car has excellent suspension travel (it had 14” vertical travel at each (wheel) corner before I fitted longer travel DeCarbon dampers-I’d attach a picture but don’t know how). I use blue/white springs at the front and green/pink progressive at the rear with the dampers concentric to the springs. The springs are positively located at both ends at the rear (race derived practice). It has low overall height (good for tight, overgrown lanes), has excellent ground clearance and weighs 1300kgs.
The other Bowler 100 I worked on and competed in had a different set-up – the rear axle used front radius arms an a panhard rod – this controls wheel hop better at speed and provides better roll stiffness. That car used 12” Fox remote reservoir dampers – we won our class and group in the French TT championship. If you fancy some green laning in the Marches drop me an email via the GLASS website – I’m the Worcestershire rep.
Matt
Sorry Matt, I was going by your profile.
Same sort of story here, but I got fed up with leaves loooong before you seemed to!
Went over to coils and didn't look back.
My pissing contest retort....
15 years building and driving off roaders.
6 years competition, Bulldog, Dragon etc. etc.
4 years LR off road driver and new customer awareness training.
1 year non LR owner as I got fed up with the bloody things.
Thanks for the invite, I blob on various green lane trips but prefer to keep clean these days, and go out on 'nancy boy' blaats!
P.S. You git, I always fancied building myself a Bowler!!!!
Same sort of story here, but I got fed up with leaves loooong before you seemed to!
Went over to coils and didn't look back.
My pissing contest retort....
15 years building and driving off roaders.
6 years competition, Bulldog, Dragon etc. etc.
4 years LR off road driver and new customer awareness training.
1 year non LR owner as I got fed up with the bloody things.
Thanks for the invite, I blob on various green lane trips but prefer to keep clean these days, and go out on 'nancy boy' blaats!
P.S. You git, I always fancied building myself a Bowler!!!!
No problem, Chelsea Tractor. I am curious, how do I go about entering the Dragon Trophy? I have read two articles about it but have no mention was made of how to compete. I had thought about the Ebble Valley Trail but it is at odds with my position as a GLASS area rep...
Had wondered about buying a TVR, I fancied a Griffith, but cannot justify two "toys". Also the Bowler is pretty fast - and I can off-road it.
Matt
Had wondered about buying a TVR, I fancied a Griffith, but cannot justify two "toys". Also the Bowler is pretty fast - and I can off-road it.
Matt
So how does this look?
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=18449&item=4530086279&rd=1
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=18449&item=4530086279&rd=1
WLAcopilote said:
I am curious, how do I go about entering the Dragon Trophy?
It's invite only. I winch monkey'd for a mate who had been asked to take part. It seemed the 'post' challenge drinking was just as important as the off roading itself and as I could hold my own, an invite for the following year fell on to my mat.
Came last twice, second once and won once, but ALWAYS came home with the most damage award!!!!
Liszt, who do you know on the organizing side?
Do miss off roading but a SST (screaming shit machine) is imminent so I haven't got the time to build/repair things for the forseable future.
One day.
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