4.4 TDV8 vs 3.6 TDV8

[TorqueDirty]

Hi folks,

As a spill over from my thread in General Gassing about the relative merits of a 2012 Touareg 3.0 TDi vs a slightly older FFRR 3.6 TDV8, I wonder if I might garner your expert opinion about the differences between the newer 4.4 TDV8 FFRR compared to the 3.6 TDV8 version.

I had set myself a budget of c25k for a really nice yet capable 4x4 and think I have narrowed it down to a Touareg or the FFRR. The main debate has been round reliability, with the wife expressing real and probably justifiable nervousness about the RR option.

Having said all of that, I do find myself still drawn to the RR over the Touareg.

Now, after after idly perusing the classifieds again I notice that for say an extra 7k I could possibly buy one of the newer 4.4 TDV8 engined Range Rovers.

Reviews for this model seem very good but are they really worth the extra premium over the 3.6? Guessing resale will be better, and clearly the performance will be better, but am I better saving some cash and getting a lower miles and higher spec 3.6 TDV8?

Also, since the wife is convinced that any RR will break down constantly, is there any reason to expect the 4.4 to be better in this regard than the 3.6? Were there any other improvements to the car other than just a better engine?

I mention this because if I win the argument for the RR over the Touareg, and it then breaks down, I'll be in the dog house for a long time!

So assuming we do side with the RR option I'd be interested to know if you think the 4.4 would be miles better than the 3.6 or just better to buy if the extra price differential is of no importance. For clarity the extra 7k is a very much big deal to us so the car would need to be dramatically better / more reliable / slower to depreciate / result in more frequent and better sex etc to be worth the extra money.

My gut tells me to save the cash and go for the 3.6, but my gut is not a very reliable decision making instrument based on past experience!

Thoughts / suggestions / opinions / offers of free beer all welcome.

TD

Edited by TorqueDirty on Sunday 14th December 20:20

[camel_landy]

Other thank the engine size, the other main difference the 4.4 has the 8spd gearbox.

Everything else is much the same.

M

[cheddar]

Hi TD, been following your threads as I'm helping friends with the same choice between RR and Touareg.

All the noted journo's loved the 4.4 when it was introduced, not only is it more powerful than the 3.6 but smoother, more economical and emits 14% less Co2. Plus the 8 speed 'box means running only 1450rpms at 70mph.

At 2800kgs(!) the RR needs all the stonk you can buy and wouldn't you always regret it having bought the 3.6 instead? I know I would.

One thing to note is that the 4.4 runs sequential turbo's so low down pull might not be quite as strong as you'd imagine as only one turbo lights up early and the other doesn't kick in until you're really 'on it'.

Touareg V8? Epic engine, more power and considerably more torque than the RR in a 650kg lighter package so they're bloomin' quick (maybe too quick?) but..........

The Touareg's a bit too plain, sensible and accomplished sure, but the interior verges on dull and after the initial novelty wears off you might just pine for the crafted sumptuousness of the RR.

[TorqueDirty]

camel_landy said:

Other thank the engine size, the other main difference the 4.4 has the 8spd gearbox.

Everything else is much the same.

M

I'm a tad dyslexic and I read your user name as Caramel Lady!

That made me chuckle.

Thanks for the info too, that certainly helps.

TD

Edited by TorqueDirty on Sunday 14th December 21:15

Edited by TorqueDirty on Sunday 14th December 21:16

[TorqueDirty]

Cheers for the excellent info cheddar. Much appreciated.

Except of course apart from the fact that I may now need to sell another car, or a non vital organ!

TD

[athomp04]

The 4.4 is significantly better having owned both (2010&2012). The increase in power and better gearbox are immediately noticeable along with improved fuel economy, and to add to this the brakes are significantly more powerful which on the 3.6 was a big weakness in my opinion.

Of course this has to balanced with the increased cost, so I would suggest you drive both and see how important the differnces are to you.

Ashley

[camel_landy]

TorqueDirty said:

I'm a tad dyslexic and I read your user name as Caramel Lady!

That made me chuckle.

M

[NomduJour]

Haven't driven a 3.6 2010 (the one with the cheapo front brakes), but the 4.4 is a big step forward from a 3.6 non-Adaptive Dynamics car - quicker, more refined, more economical, a bit sharper to drive.

[Kickstart]

Had both the 3.6 and now the 4.4 - from memory my 3.6 was a 2007 car bought 3 years old and did 50k in it great car and sold it with about 90k on it - changed battery at about 5 years old which seemed to resolve a few minor elec gremlins
4.4 bought in 2012 and definitely better but brakes seem the same - planning to keep if for ever
In your position i would drive both and see what you think

[DUMBO100]

My Mother in Law had an '13 RR Tdv8 and I liked when I saw it but after we borrowed it for a few months I was smitten. It's one of my favourite ever cars and the gearbox/engine match is perfect.

[Cravenglassford]

I'm just in the process of buying a 2010 3.6 and after a test drive today I thought it was brilliant, going up from an 06 2.7 rr sport it felt really good, I may live to regret it but I'm prepared to take the risk. You only live one, make the most of it and go with your heart, not your head, and buy whatever makes you smile....

[random_username]

3.6 TDV8s have a habit of getting blocked EGRs which can over stress the turbos, which results in big bills (£2.5K for 2x turbos, replacement EGRs and labour at an independent specialist). The 8 speed box is also more reliable than the 6 speed.

Maybe ours was a Friday car - but it was an absolute money pit - aforementioned turbo failure, torque converter on the gearbox was on the way out, and every service was considerably more than a grand even at an indy. It was a 2010 facelift as well with all the adaptive dynamics stuff, but the older engine and box.

When it worked it was a fantastic car though, but if you are considering one put aside a few grand contingency fund for if (when!) it goes wrong! If you look at fullfatrr.com there's a whole load of buying guides and stuff to look out for (rusty tailgates, wheelarches, how to check compressors etc)

[Cravenglassford]

Time will tell? I've got a file of service history and other jobs that have been done like a new alternator in 2016, and curing an oil leak, brakes etc. The previous owner appears to have really looked after the car?
My last car (sport 2.7 2006) only needed tyres and oil etc. I'm hoping for the best?
My money pit is the 1963 3.8 jaguar mk2 I've got sat in the garage.....

[random_username]

My advice would be to pro-actively change the EGRs if you don't have documentation showing they've been done already, and use OEM ones not cheap pattern ones - or you can buy a blanking kit for about £50 off ebay...

Also keep an eye on the gearbox - symptoms of the TC going are the revs will 'flutter'. When mine started to go at 30mph going up a slight hill you could watch the rev counter needle oscillate 50-100 rpm, or sometimes on the motorway it would do it under load as well. New TC is about a grand, but if you leave it then potentially it can take the entire gearbox out with it

Also go register on fullfatrr.com - there's a good community and a whole lot of good info there

[Piersman2]

random_username said:

My advice would be to pro-actively change the EGRs if you don't have documentation showing they've been done already, and use OEM ones not cheap pattern ones - or you can buy a blanking kit for about £50 off ebay...

Also keep an eye on the gearbox - symptoms of the TC going are the revs will 'flutter'. When mine started to go at 30mph going up a slight hill you could watch the rev counter needle oscillate 50-100 rpm, or sometimes on the motorway it would do it under load as well. New TC is about a grand, but if you leave it then potentially it can take the entire gearbox out with it

Also go register on fullfatrr.com - there's a good community and a whole lot of good info there

The two messages above summarise my experience with running a TDV8 3.6 from about 90K-120k miles. Over those 30k miles...

Torque Convertor flutter - tick, new convertor
EGR valves - tick. Interesting one this. The garage couldn't work out what was going on as the symptons were so pronounced and yet no error codes being thrown. Tried new turbos (not cheap) and although they were leaking slightly turned out not to be the issue. They started a teardown and when removing one of the EGRs immediately noticed that the big end of the valve had snapped off the shaft so the EGR was effectively wide open at all times, but the car ECU thought it was operating normally, hence the awful running. Turns out the previous owner to me had fitted two new EGR valves, but cheap chinese ones! [rollseyes]
Other things... Alternator AND battery - they all need that apparently
Turbo air hose.. again, they all go eventually, cheap enough to fix though.

The only thing that used to irritate me about the car was that momentary quarter second pause when planting the right foot out of a junction or roundabout. Nothing for a long moment as the artic lorry is bearing down, then BAM!!! of you go like a bat out of hell.

The above was all the justification I needed to trade it up for a 5.0 S/C, which 5 years later I still have.

Edited by Piersman2 on Sunday 23 February 18:07

[random_username]

Piersman2 said:

EGR valves - tick.

Mine ran fine with no indication that anything was wrong, up until when it all failed catastrophically - pulled onto the motororway slip road, foot down, merged into traffic pulled out to overtake a lorry and then a rather large bang, dash lit up like a christmas tree, engine stops and a Bond-esque trail of blue smoke blocking out most of the cars behind me.

Managed to get over to the hard shoulder and had to be recovered. Air filter and inlet pipework completely full of oil (and probably bits of turbo).

If I were to get another one, it would be a petrol one!

[Piersman2]

random_username said:

Piersman2 said:

EGR valves - tick.

Mine ran fine with no indication that anything was wrong, up until when it all failed catastrophically - pulled onto the motororway slip road, foot down, merged into traffic pulled out to overtake a lorry and then a rather large bang, dash lit up like a christmas tree, engine stops and a Bond-esque trail of blue smoke blocking out most of the cars behind me.

Managed to get over to the hard shoulder and had to be recovered. Air filter and inlet pipework completely full of oil (and probably bits of turbo).

If I were to get another one, it would be a petrol one!

My garage , a decent specialist in the brand, said that he TDV8 engines themselves are absolutely bullet proof, it's the bits bolted onto them that fail; EGR, Turbos, Alternator. I'd hesitate to buy another diesel that was approaching 100k again unless it had already had the bits listed changed out.

The petrol are known for water pump issues mainly, which my 5.0 S/C did strand me with 1 day, but it's cheap and easy to change out for a new pump. The biggest bill I've had in 5 years with the 5.0 was when it shat it's transfer box and needed a gearbox drive shaft replaced at the same time. But that's always gonna be a potential when there's this much power being fed through the drivetrain.

The 5.0 is a beast!