407 ARX - Genuine Works Mini Cooper or Log Book Recreation?
Discussion
Back in the '60's before he had kids, my dad did some rallying. One of his cars was an ex-works Mini Cooper registration 407 ARX, which he campaigned for a couple of years and then sold.
Those that know say that the car was some years later dismantled/broken and all the special parts sold off. Not suprising as being a works then private rally car it had led a very tough life and was pretty knackered, and at that time had little value.
Now of course genuine Works Coopers are worth very significant money.
Suprise suprise when my dad's car (well registration number) turns up on Top Gear together with a bodyshell of the same age (My dad categorically states that it was not the bodyshell that the car had when he owned it as it clearly did not have the very obvious modifications that the car had at that time).
The car then went on to win a premium rate viewer phone in and was 'restored' at Top Gear viewer's expense. The owner of the log book was no doubt chuffed to bits that Top Gear paid for all the work, and is now advertising the car for sale for over £100,000
Is the consensus that this is still a genuine Works Cooper, or merely a recreation?
Would the value be different if it were one or the other?
If it is not the origin bodyshell (or a brand new replacement) then i was under the impression that DVLA would change the registration number for a Q plate.
Having had the good fortune of having his registration document & bodyshell restored/built into a potentially very valuable car at someone else's expense, i wonder if the proceeds might be used for the benefit of the classic car community as a whole - any suggestions?
Those that know say that the car was some years later dismantled/broken and all the special parts sold off. Not suprising as being a works then private rally car it had led a very tough life and was pretty knackered, and at that time had little value.
Now of course genuine Works Coopers are worth very significant money.
Suprise suprise when my dad's car (well registration number) turns up on Top Gear together with a bodyshell of the same age (My dad categorically states that it was not the bodyshell that the car had when he owned it as it clearly did not have the very obvious modifications that the car had at that time).
The car then went on to win a premium rate viewer phone in and was 'restored' at Top Gear viewer's expense. The owner of the log book was no doubt chuffed to bits that Top Gear paid for all the work, and is now advertising the car for sale for over £100,000
Is the consensus that this is still a genuine Works Cooper, or merely a recreation?
Would the value be different if it were one or the other?
If it is not the origin bodyshell (or a brand new replacement) then i was under the impression that DVLA would change the registration number for a Q plate.
Having had the good fortune of having his registration document & bodyshell restored/built into a potentially very valuable car at someone else's expense, i wonder if the proceeds might be used for the benefit of the classic car community as a whole - any suggestions?
Edited by 100 IAN on Sunday 16th January 21:24
Edited by 100 IAN on Sunday 16th January 21:25
I would say if they had the luke to win the compertition it would be up to them what they did with the money. (What did the restoration comunity do for them).
I think if some one was going to pay out 100000 for a mini they would look in to how much of the car was origanal. There are a set of DVLA rules for when a car is still the same car. They may be diffrent then what one person my think one way or the other.
If I were you I would just let it go and enjoy you life.
I think if some one was going to pay out 100000 for a mini they would look in to how much of the car was origanal. There are a set of DVLA rules for when a car is still the same car. They may be diffrent then what one person my think one way or the other.
If I were you I would just let it go and enjoy you life.
Ian
in the 80's & 90's the dvla rules where a lot more lax than they are now, in that period a lot of works cars (and others) where 'discovered' due to the ease at which such finds could be verified & the log book be reissued - often on the vaguest of evidence. At that time the values where not as crazy as they are now, and I suspect people did it more for the status of owning an ex-works car rather than the financial value of the car.
at one time the book written about the ex works minis listed all the registration numbers, engine numbers and chassis numbers - so the information required to recreate the cars was readily available.
I think everyone accepts that works cars are re-shells - they had a hard life, and often the same car would run different id's for promotional or import purposes. In some instances more than one car ran the same reg numbers - so it’s a real mine field out there.
from stories ive heard, the dvla (nowadays) shy away from looking at previously issued v5's (not just for ex works minis) that have been verified by clubs as it will (probably) open a real can of worms - even in the early 1990's the word of a club authority would stand higher than a concerned member of public.
The top gear car is interesting, once the car had won & the contract was signed, the BBC was legally obliged to restore the car. The owner of the car was simply doing what many people who had restored an ex-work car in the past had done. I think the reason so many people got annoyed was that it was done in the public domain, with public money.
This isn’t a unique thing that happens to ex-work minis, it happens with mk1 escorts, jag d types etc etc.
At least your dad can say that he 'once owned' a proper ex-works car!
in the 80's & 90's the dvla rules where a lot more lax than they are now, in that period a lot of works cars (and others) where 'discovered' due to the ease at which such finds could be verified & the log book be reissued - often on the vaguest of evidence. At that time the values where not as crazy as they are now, and I suspect people did it more for the status of owning an ex-works car rather than the financial value of the car.
at one time the book written about the ex works minis listed all the registration numbers, engine numbers and chassis numbers - so the information required to recreate the cars was readily available.
I think everyone accepts that works cars are re-shells - they had a hard life, and often the same car would run different id's for promotional or import purposes. In some instances more than one car ran the same reg numbers - so it’s a real mine field out there.
from stories ive heard, the dvla (nowadays) shy away from looking at previously issued v5's (not just for ex works minis) that have been verified by clubs as it will (probably) open a real can of worms - even in the early 1990's the word of a club authority would stand higher than a concerned member of public.
The top gear car is interesting, once the car had won & the contract was signed, the BBC was legally obliged to restore the car. The owner of the car was simply doing what many people who had restored an ex-work car in the past had done. I think the reason so many people got annoyed was that it was done in the public domain, with public money.
This isn’t a unique thing that happens to ex-work minis, it happens with mk1 escorts, jag d types etc etc.
At least your dad can say that he 'once owned' a proper ex-works car!
During their 'life' with the BMC Comps dept, one car may well have carried different registration numbers for different events. They even swapped Austin and Morris badges to keep the distributors and dealers happy and maintain the balance between Austin & Morris. On one evne a 1275 'S' had a Morris badge on the front and an Austin one on the back!
So, in fact, ex-works cars can be anything really. Probably 90% of ex-works cars have been re-shelled more than once and it is still happening, despite what DVLA might like to think. I know if my 1964 full rally-spec 'S', which is currently valued at c.£28000 was 'injured' in a rally and needed a shell, I would just find a Mk 1 shell and re-shell it in exactly the spec it is in now. How would anyone know?
Personally I think it is more important to maintain the spirit of the rally-winning Minis from that era than to try to decide after what date a re-shell makes it no-longer an ex-works car. In theory, a purist might say that any re-shelling after production of the last Mk 1 shell is not a genuine re-shell, but surely that would be going too far as a e-shell in, say, 1970 of a Mk. 1 ex-works 'S' would be within the spirit.
So, in fact, ex-works cars can be anything really. Probably 90% of ex-works cars have been re-shelled more than once and it is still happening, despite what DVLA might like to think. I know if my 1964 full rally-spec 'S', which is currently valued at c.£28000 was 'injured' in a rally and needed a shell, I would just find a Mk 1 shell and re-shell it in exactly the spec it is in now. How would anyone know?
Personally I think it is more important to maintain the spirit of the rally-winning Minis from that era than to try to decide after what date a re-shell makes it no-longer an ex-works car. In theory, a purist might say that any re-shelling after production of the last Mk 1 shell is not a genuine re-shell, but surely that would be going too far as a e-shell in, say, 1970 of a Mk. 1 ex-works 'S' would be within the spirit.
407 ARX had an interesting history. It was initially a 997 Cooper prepared by BMC Comps for international rallying. Later it had a 1071 'S' engine and, presumably, all Cooper 'S' running gear. It was also fitted with a 970 'S' engine for its last 'works' outing. Apparently Peter Riley then bought it from BMC Comps. Whether he used it I don't know, but I think he did. He was very quick in the big 'works' Healey.
Several 997 Coopers were fitted with full 'S' running gear if the shell was good at the time of switching from 997 to 'S'. I did several rallies in 1967 in an ex-works car with the registration 18 CRX. It was a 1275 when I was in it, but started life as a 997. Within a couple of years all would probably have had new shells too and will certainly have been re-shelled by now. The life of a rally car shell was limited and shells were just considered as 'another part number' in those days.
I guess it has become the form to 'knock' doing now what we did as a matter of course back in the 60's and 70's. If a rally car needs a shell, then just re-build into one. It used to be the thing to do. If those cars hadn't been re-shelled they would simply not exist now at all and that would be a shame.
It's different from taking an ordinary completely standard car bought rom the c;lassified ads and 'ringing'it into an ex-works car then selling it as 'absolutely genuine'.There are several cars like that out there - not Minis I hasten to add - that I know are 'complete fakes and their owners have paid a fortune for them and have nom nidea of their lack of provenance. This Mini makes no such claim and its re-build really is in the public domain.
Several 997 Coopers were fitted with full 'S' running gear if the shell was good at the time of switching from 997 to 'S'. I did several rallies in 1967 in an ex-works car with the registration 18 CRX. It was a 1275 when I was in it, but started life as a 997. Within a couple of years all would probably have had new shells too and will certainly have been re-shelled by now. The life of a rally car shell was limited and shells were just considered as 'another part number' in those days.
I guess it has become the form to 'knock' doing now what we did as a matter of course back in the 60's and 70's. If a rally car needs a shell, then just re-build into one. It used to be the thing to do. If those cars hadn't been re-shelled they would simply not exist now at all and that would be a shame.
It's different from taking an ordinary completely standard car bought rom the c;lassified ads and 'ringing'it into an ex-works car then selling it as 'absolutely genuine'.There are several cars like that out there - not Minis I hasten to add - that I know are 'complete fakes and their owners have paid a fortune for them and have nom nidea of their lack of provenance. This Mini makes no such claim and its re-build really is in the public domain.
Cooperman said:
It's different from taking an ordinary completely standard car bought rom the c;lassified ads and 'ringing'it into an ex-works car then selling it as 'absolutely genuine'.There are several cars like that out there - not Minis I hasten to add - that I know are 'complete fakes and their owners have paid a fortune for them and have nom nidea of their lack of provenance. This Mini makes no such claim and its re-build really is in the public domain.
So if it's only really a replica why is it up for grabs at £100K ? And if it's all above board why has the car not got a proven history record, ie it suddenly appeared with little or no history. There are dozens of ex works Minis like this (both race and rally cars) that are trailered to shows up and down the country and displayed with all the 1960's rally photos in the hope that the Joe Public will be hoodwinked into thinking their car has any connection with Abingdon other than a registration number applied for in the late 1980's which most have. It seems the more the owners talk about it the more they believe the car's anything other than a replica too !
James Martin or whoever may own these cars might think they own a little piece of motoring history and good luck to you, enjoy your fantasy but as Stuart Turner said just don't presume we're all daft enough to fall for it.
If you bought a fake antique from someone who knew it was such, no matter how diligently recreated from many hours of research and painstaking hard work you'd still like to think you'd be protected by the law. For some reason the many thousands of pounds profit made from these cars goes completely overlooked. It's still fraud though and the shame of it all is that the cars that actually do have some continuous history are all tarred with the same brush.
In do think that this car, 407ARX is a fake as it has no 'continuous history'.
A re-shell in itself would not cause an ex-works car to be anything but an ex-works car.
The unanswerable question is at what point does a car with continuous history become 'not what it was'?
Take, say, a 1964 'works' car. It is sold by the works having been re-shelled there and subsequently rallied by it's new private owner. He rolls it and again it is re-shelled, this time with new sub-frames. Then it is further rallied and the engine blows up taking the gearbox with it, so a new, Cooper 'S' engine is fitted, further modified to give more power.
Later the seats are changed, an all-new braking system is installed, new instruments are fitted as the old ones eventually fail, so that no major component is as originally built into the car by the 'works'. Is it still a works car? There are a lot of ex-works cars of many make and types just like that and they fetch big money.
I saw today the disqualified 1966 Monte Carlo 'winning' ex-Timo Makinen/Paul Easter ex-works Cooper 'S' being restored for its current owner. It is completely stripped and is being restored to 'as was' condition. The shell is claimed to be the original, but who knows. It has a lot of new panels to replace the rusty ones. In fact, it is starting to look fantastic. I had lunch with Paul Easter last week and he is going to go and see his and Timo's old car.
A re-shell in itself would not cause an ex-works car to be anything but an ex-works car.
The unanswerable question is at what point does a car with continuous history become 'not what it was'?
Take, say, a 1964 'works' car. It is sold by the works having been re-shelled there and subsequently rallied by it's new private owner. He rolls it and again it is re-shelled, this time with new sub-frames. Then it is further rallied and the engine blows up taking the gearbox with it, so a new, Cooper 'S' engine is fitted, further modified to give more power.
Later the seats are changed, an all-new braking system is installed, new instruments are fitted as the old ones eventually fail, so that no major component is as originally built into the car by the 'works'. Is it still a works car? There are a lot of ex-works cars of many make and types just like that and they fetch big money.
I saw today the disqualified 1966 Monte Carlo 'winning' ex-Timo Makinen/Paul Easter ex-works Cooper 'S' being restored for its current owner. It is completely stripped and is being restored to 'as was' condition. The shell is claimed to be the original, but who knows. It has a lot of new panels to replace the rusty ones. In fact, it is starting to look fantastic. I had lunch with Paul Easter last week and he is going to go and see his and Timo's old car.
I do see your point, triggers broom etc but the difference between a car that has through time evolved into virtually a replica of it's former self (as many classic cars are) and one that has been built up with the sole purpose to defraud is a big one and it would appear most of the works Mini Coopers are in the latter bracket, this one being a typical case. Surely it's the intent that puts these owners on the wrong side of the law ?
Eddie Baby said:
I do see your point, triggers broom etc but the difference between a car that has through time evolved into virtually a replica of it's former self (as many classic cars are) and one that has been built up with the sole purpose to defraud is a big one and it would appear most of the works Mini Coopers are in the latter bracket, this one being a typical case. Surely it's the intent that puts these owners on the wrong side of the law ?
The MCR do quite well in policing these cars, but as always, money talks.It will be interesting to see how much it actually makes when (if) it sells.
DJB93B was sold for over £100k (£120k I think) and this was sold as a replica/re-creation of the RAC rally car. It was a great replica though. 
My rally car was built up from a brand new Roversport shell, and lots of other brand new parts, it still qualifies to carry the orignal plate though (no, sadly its not an ex-works S
) this is the way with most competition cars, and always will be. How far would you go before a car is non-orignal? New subframe? Panels? Engine/gearbox? The only 100% original cars are those that win an event and are retired straight away, but this doesn't happen too often, and some teams even crush their cars.
Even 621AOK has had work done as it used to have a sunroof.
As far as the proceeds from the sale of the Top Gear car, the owner was lucky enough to win a competition, surely its therefore his to do as he pleases. Look how much the BBC gives away as cash prizes to people in the name of saturday night entertainment.
My rally car was built up from a brand new Roversport shell, and lots of other brand new parts, it still qualifies to carry the orignal plate though (no, sadly its not an ex-works S
) this is the way with most competition cars, and always will be. How far would you go before a car is non-orignal? New subframe? Panels? Engine/gearbox? The only 100% original cars are those that win an event and are retired straight away, but this doesn't happen too often, and some teams even crush their cars. Even 621AOK has had work done as it used to have a sunroof.
As far as the proceeds from the sale of the Top Gear car, the owner was lucky enough to win a competition, surely its therefore his to do as he pleases. Look how much the BBC gives away as cash prizes to people in the name of saturday night entertainment.
Miniholic said:
As far as the proceeds from the sale of the Top Gear car, the owner was lucky enough to win a competition, surely its therefore his to do as he pleases. Look how much the BBC gives away as cash prizes to people in the name of saturday night entertainment.
Slightly different, in fact it could be argued that makes the case even worse if the owner had people phoning in with their hard earned cash to Top Gear to decide to restore a car he knew full well was a complete fake but obviously didn't let Capt Slow + Co in on the secret. It stinks.Miniholic said:
The only 100% original cars are those that win an event and are retired straight away, but this doesn't happen too often, and some teams even crush their cars.
Even 621AOK has had work done as it used to have a sunroof.
No but it wasn't knocked together from a logbook and a pile of bits to fool the public.Even 621AOK has had work done as it used to have a sunroof.
DJB93B is the best known fake/recreation. It's re-emergence came about when a certain chancer applied for the V5 from DVLA in the 1980's and got it. The number plates were fitted to a red and white Cooper S rally car that was still being rallied during 1991-2, then taken off and put onto a freshly built car which was built from a very nice low mileage maroon 850 Mini. It's a nice thing but it's not real.
I had a works Mini some 25 years ago, one of the 850's. It was just a bodyshell with a Q plate, but the chassis number was one of the works Minis. I wasn't particularly bothered, rebuilt the car as a regular Mini and had it re-registered on a period 1959 number plate, used it and sold it. For about £500 iirc...
There are a few real ones left. There is the GRX5D around now, and there's the one that won the '66 Monte which of course has a different number plate. BMC sold the cars either with the registrations, or kept the 'famous' numbers and sold the old rally cars off on different chassis/registration numbers. I used to live in Oxfordshire and there used to be quite a lot of interesting Mini stuff about. Nobby Hall, one of the works mechanics, had one of the ex works MG1100 rally cars which he bought for peanuts and gave to his wife. Someone I used to know bought the rusty remains - complete with straight cut gearbox, amal carbs - and chopped it up.
The engine went into an 850 Mini, and the gearbox into the 970S I had at the time.
I had a works Mini some 25 years ago, one of the 850's. It was just a bodyshell with a Q plate, but the chassis number was one of the works Minis. I wasn't particularly bothered, rebuilt the car as a regular Mini and had it re-registered on a period 1959 number plate, used it and sold it. For about £500 iirc...
There are a few real ones left. There is the GRX5D around now, and there's the one that won the '66 Monte which of course has a different number plate. BMC sold the cars either with the registrations, or kept the 'famous' numbers and sold the old rally cars off on different chassis/registration numbers. I used to live in Oxfordshire and there used to be quite a lot of interesting Mini stuff about. Nobby Hall, one of the works mechanics, had one of the ex works MG1100 rally cars which he bought for peanuts and gave to his wife. Someone I used to know bought the rusty remains - complete with straight cut gearbox, amal carbs - and chopped it up.
The engine went into an 850 Mini, and the gearbox into the 970S I had at the time.
Gassing Station | Classic Minis | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff