Difference between Austin Mini and Cooper?
Discussion
Austin Mini is the actual car a Cooper is a kind of like an AMG merc - John Cooper garages would take the minis and tune them up, sometimes for competition purposes, then sell them on.
So a cooper is like a pokey mini.
PS I'mk not a Mini nut - I'll leave that to the missus - so sorry for any mistakes!
So a cooper is like a pokey mini.
PS I'mk not a Mini nut - I'll leave that to the missus - so sorry for any mistakes!
I guess we are talking Mark 1 cars here. The Austin/Morris Mini 850 & 1000 was a basic Mini with drum brakes, 'magic wand' gear lever, single carb and bloody awful cylinder head.
The Cooper was a 997 cc, (in 1961) then a 998 cc (in 1964) car with a lot more power, twin carbs, disc brakes, remote control gear lever, better trim, a bit more chrome, etc. There were a few more minor differences. But the Cooper 'S', now that was a very different car indeed. It went much better and, more importantly, it stopped much better as the disc brakes on the 'S' really work, unlike the Cooper discs.
I'll be showing my age when I say that I got my first Mini, an 850, in 1963 and my first new car, a Cooper 998, in 1964. And I still can't leave them alone as I'm rallying in my 1964 Cooper 'S' 1293 this weekend in Yorkshire. I'll try to keep it on the road!
The Cooper was a 997 cc, (in 1961) then a 998 cc (in 1964) car with a lot more power, twin carbs, disc brakes, remote control gear lever, better trim, a bit more chrome, etc. There were a few more minor differences. But the Cooper 'S', now that was a very different car indeed. It went much better and, more importantly, it stopped much better as the disc brakes on the 'S' really work, unlike the Cooper discs.
I'll be showing my age when I say that I got my first Mini, an 850, in 1963 and my first new car, a Cooper 998, in 1964. And I still can't leave them alone as I'm rallying in my 1964 Cooper 'S' 1293 this weekend in Yorkshire. I'll try to keep it on the road!
You get the Classic Car Syndrome where originality is critical. There are even books that tell you how to spot a 'fake' Cooper or 'S'.
About 12 years ago I bought a heap of Mini scrap that included a log book for a '63 Cooper 'S' 1071. I got a shell by buying a '64 Mini 850 and restored it with lots of new bits. I got a 1275 'S' block and machined it to take a 1071 crank, etc, etc. The result was a really beautiful 1071 fully international rally prepared historic Cooper 'S'rally car with which I won the up to 1200 cc class on the Belgian Historic Rally.
Subsequently I took it to a Mini Cooper Register meeting where some self opinioniated prat told me it was not a Cooper 'S' as I had built it up from bits. My reply was that it had to be a Cooper 'S' as it was obviously not a Lotus Cortina or a Mustang. I then left the meeting and the club.
Now, that is the sort of purist attitude you contend with if you build a Cooper 'S' from an 850.
Don't let that put you off. You can build a terrif Cooper 'S' replica from a Mark 1 shell.
About 12 years ago I bought a heap of Mini scrap that included a log book for a '63 Cooper 'S' 1071. I got a shell by buying a '64 Mini 850 and restored it with lots of new bits. I got a 1275 'S' block and machined it to take a 1071 crank, etc, etc. The result was a really beautiful 1071 fully international rally prepared historic Cooper 'S'rally car with which I won the up to 1200 cc class on the Belgian Historic Rally.
Subsequently I took it to a Mini Cooper Register meeting where some self opinioniated prat told me it was not a Cooper 'S' as I had built it up from bits. My reply was that it had to be a Cooper 'S' as it was obviously not a Lotus Cortina or a Mustang. I then left the meeting and the club.
Now, that is the sort of purist attitude you contend with if you build a Cooper 'S' from an 850.
Don't let that put you off. You can build a terrif Cooper 'S' replica from a Mark 1 shell.
Cooperman said:
Subsequently I took it to a Mini Cooper Register meeting where some self opinioniated prat told me it was not a Cooper 'S' as I had built it up from bits. My reply was that it had to be a Cooper 'S' as it was obviously not a Lotus Cortina or a Mustang. I then left the meeting and the club.
PMSL - why do some people get so worked up about that? I know a couple of guys who think it's sacrelidge to put anything other than an A series in a mini, despite the fact that the Vtech conversion looks a lot of fun...
Cooperman, you never send over the spec sheet for modifying a 998cc engine.
Let's say, I would like to convert my 998cc Austin Mini to a Cooper S spec car. How much money would I need? Cooperman, do you have the spec for the conversion? Is the conversion mainly the wheels, tires, brakes, and engine parts? Does it need any changes to the exterior (body)?
What is the speed of the Cooper S spec car? 0-60 and top speed? Would it be possible to modified the 998cc engine to perform 60s in mid to high 6s and a top speed of 100 mph? Or am I kidding myself? Thanks.
d3vine,
Sorry 'bout not sending the spec sheet, but I was rallying in Yorkshire last weekend on a combined modern and historic event in my 'S'. We won the historic rally and got 11th in the combined results. Not the best result ever, but not too bad. Didn't bend the car either!
I'll do it tomorrow for you.
Sorry 'bout not sending the spec sheet, but I was rallying in Yorkshire last weekend on a combined modern and historic event in my 'S'. We won the historic rally and got 11th in the combined results. Not the best result ever, but not too bad. Didn't bend the car either!
I'll do it tomorrow for you.
Cooperman said:
(snip) Now, that is the sort of purist attitude you contend with if you build a Cooper 'S' from an 850. Don't let that put you off. You can build a terrif Cooper 'S' replica from a Mark 1 shell.(/snip)
The other item of conjecture is the "genunine" ex-works models. By their own admission the works cars were re-shelled, had licence plates and brand designations swapped from event to event etc. A case of "grandpa's hammer" if ever there was one.
It's just the same in the MG world, maybe worse (those aren't the original brand of tyre, that's not a genuine oil filter etc) and what about the many Escort Mexico/RS2000 "replicas" out there. They say to be copied is the sincerest form of flattery. If you want to make an S replica then go ahead.
does any one know how the gear shift connects in a 1962 997 mini cooper. im trying to build one backup from a 850 shell but havent got the original engine. i keep finding contradicting info saying that all mk1 had magic wands yet some say that the coopers have remote gear changers. just want to know what im supost to have + if the floor start bulge is suppost to be their and if its a remote change does the magic wand hole just have a cover plate or is it welded up. any help on what should and what souldnt be on the car will help in any areas e.g wheels etc
thanks all
Greggwallace@v21.me.uk
thanks all
Greggwallace@v21.me.uk
Coopers all had the remote change. The holes is square and is in the side of the tunnel, not sure about the body mods where the wand would go though.
See if you can get hold of Original Mini Cooper & S by John Parnell it is the definitive guide to what should and shouldn't be on a Cooper.
It was out of print for a while, but I think it is avaiolable again (check out your local library, mine had it).
Ian
See if you can get hold of Original Mini Cooper & S by John Parnell it is the definitive guide to what should and shouldn't be on a Cooper.
It was out of print for a while, but I think it is avaiolable again (check out your local library, mine had it).
Ian
On the Cooper & Cooper 'S', that's the early ones, not the 1990 onwards, the gear change is a remote type with the linkage in an aluminium casing. This casing bolts onto the lower part of the transmission cover with 4 off 3/8" UNC bolts, this being a different cover from the 850. The 850 and Cooper diff covers are very different and one cannot be modified to take the place of the other. Also the diff cover is a matched part of the overall transmission, although it has been known for these parts to be swapped without any problems. In theory they must not be.
At the rear of the aluminium remote casing is a special bracket which carries the big rubber rear mounting (which always breaks on the rally cars).
There is a erctangular hole in the floor for the remote change, just in front of the handbrake bracket. In order to cut this accurately you do need a template. The edges of this aperture are flanged to provide a bit more stiffness. Then there is a rubber gaiter and a metal edging plate.
The original hole for the 'magic wand' gear lever should be plated over with a steel plate either welded or rivetted in place.
I hope this is what you wanted to know.
Peter
At the rear of the aluminium remote casing is a special bracket which carries the big rubber rear mounting (which always breaks on the rally cars).
There is a erctangular hole in the floor for the remote change, just in front of the handbrake bracket. In order to cut this accurately you do need a template. The edges of this aperture are flanged to provide a bit more stiffness. Then there is a rubber gaiter and a metal edging plate.
The original hole for the 'magic wand' gear lever should be plated over with a steel plate either welded or rivetted in place.
I hope this is what you wanted to know.
Peter
Thank all i getting their slowly. i think im going to drop a metro engine in it till i find my self a 997 but just didnt want to go cutting holes where their shouldnt be. the main bit i just want to clarify if that is the cooper a shell of its own then (well floor pan) and if it was did they get rid of the floor start bulge (the bit that sticks ou the side of the tunnel for the button to sit on) and was the hole for the magic wand still their but covered or was this another design panel/bulkhead on the coopers.
The shells are, to all intents, identical. There were a very few minor differences, but it was mainly in trim rather than structure.
The only differences are the boot board brackets in the boot, the gear lever hole which is cut into the standard shell, and which certain other cars had later on, and, on later Cooper 'S' cars the brackets for the right hand tank plus the tank filler hole.
The shell on my 1964 Cooper 'S' started life as a 1965 Morris 850 Automatic, but now its an 'S'.
Of course, the 'S' had some extra holes in the inner wing for the servo.
That's about it really.
The only differences are the boot board brackets in the boot, the gear lever hole which is cut into the standard shell, and which certain other cars had later on, and, on later Cooper 'S' cars the brackets for the right hand tank plus the tank filler hole.
The shell on my 1964 Cooper 'S' started life as a 1965 Morris 850 Automatic, but now its an 'S'.
Of course, the 'S' had some extra holes in the inner wing for the servo.
That's about it really.
right ive been trawling the scrap yards and found that the mk2 have both the bulge for the button start (but obviously not used) and a aluminium casted remote gear change. am i guessing right to think that the gear box is the same casting as the mk1 997 mini cooper and so the hole for the changer is in the same place (the same floor pan) as the mk2 + if anyone knows if their the same gearbox please tell me because i know a lovely little mk2 in the scrap yard which would solve alot of my problems thanks : )
Fatboy said:
Subsequently I took it to a Mini Cooper Register meeting where some self opinioniated prat told me it was not a Cooper 'S' as I had built it up from bits. My reply was that it had to be a Cooper 'S' as it was obviously not a Lotus Cortina or a Mustang. I then left the meeting and the club.
PMSL - why do some people get so worked up about that? I know a couple of guys who think it's sacrelidge to put anything other than an A series in a mini, despite the fact that the Vtech conversion looks a lot of fun...
Unfortunately, this form of killjoy snobbery exists with all marques-from the most classic to the most modern.
gregg wallace said:
right ive been trawling the scrap yards and found that the mk2 have both the bulge for the button start (but obviously not used) and a aluminium casted remote gear change. am i guessing right to think that the gear box is the same casting as the mk1 997 mini cooper and so the hole for the changer is in the same place (the same floor pan) as the mk2 + if anyone knows if their the same gearbox please tell me because i know a lovely little mk2 in the scrap yard which would solve alot of my problems thanks : )
The gearbox casings did vary a little, but the basic outline dimensions and mountings are all identical.
It seems, unless someone knows otherwise, that all the 4-syncro Cooper and Mk 2 Mini boxes (with the aluminium remote change) are interchangeable, but the early 3-syncro are not. I remember that when you try to use a 3-syncro 997 or early 998 casing on a 1275 'S' you have to file the gearbox webs away to get the crankshaft to clear. If you need more data on this I can look it up.
However, the 4-syncro is the best box to use anyway, with a new cross-pin diff if going modified 1275.
The early Coper 'S' gear ratios are much better than the current ratios and the gears themselves are much stronger too. It is possible to get original type Cooper 'S' gears into an 'A-Plus' casing, but you need to do a little bit of machining to the box.
On all early Mini Cooper and Cooper 'S' shells, the hole in the floor is identical. If you have a shell without the hole you are welcome to come and measure my Mk. 1, although that was cut by me from another template in my 1965 Automatic shell when I built the 'S'.
much appreciated. the main thing that i want to get right is the hole that is suppost to be there on a mk1 cooper. i have the gater surrond off a mk2 mini (not cooper but has the aluminium remote) which gives me a template for that hole but is the mk2 mini hole the same as a mk1 cooper. if it is grate but if it isnt can i have a template PLEEEEASE : )
The Mk 1 & Mk 2 shells are virtually identical including the gear lever holes.
The Mk 2 really only differs, on the Cooper that is, by the larger rear window and bigger rear light apertures.
Don't forget that you'll need the bracket and rubber mounting that goes at the end of the remote aluminium fitting. It has 3 off 5/16" unf bolts to hold it in place and two of these are very close to the body cross member. Be careful you locate this accurately prior to drilling.
The Mk 2 really only differs, on the Cooper that is, by the larger rear window and bigger rear light apertures.
Don't forget that you'll need the bracket and rubber mounting that goes at the end of the remote aluminium fitting. It has 3 off 5/16" unf bolts to hold it in place and two of these are very close to the body cross member. Be careful you locate this accurately prior to drilling.
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