Grip and balance
Discussion
Bad day yesterday as first of all it tried to set itself on fire, then possibly in an attempt to put it out it spung a major coolant leak (I think from the water pump but thats still to be confirmed).
Anyway I was at Harewood Hillclimb, Roadgoing Class, and I've got problems.
Either I'm overdriving it because a) it's down on power(don't think so) or b) I'm a crap driver (likely) or c) the suspension and tyres need sorting out.
There were two other minis in the Class, an excellent prepared "S" which beats me and the othe mini by a good few seconds and another 1275 that is a couple of seconds faster than me (assuming i can actually stay on the black stuff).
Car 1 has A008's on 10" rims, the other car and mine are on A539's on 12".
From the start I struggle to put the power down losing half a second sometimes, (we all do but my car is worst). Then on a tight right hander I roll to the left and can feel the inner wheel lifting and spinning. On a more open corners (Farmhouse and Quarry) the car drifts out to the outside, again the only way to stop it is to ease of on the right foot.
I'm ignoring the damp track and the fact that the car just snapped from understeer to oversteer a couple of times turning me into a Flymo.
The front is set quite low to limit weight transfer at the start and to try and reduce understeer, I guess i could lower the rear but that might increase understeer. I could go to A008 that might help.
Shockers are Spax rear and minspares front, Both adjustable but adjusters seized and cannot remember what the setting was. (Seemed to work on the road and road/historic rally). But their action is good, not leaking or weak. The rear is set up in accordance with Coopermans data (or was 8 year ago). Tried varying tyre prssures but there doesn't seem to be much difference.
I've actually put the car up for sale a while ago but it isn't getting any real interest and Plan B is to try and make it work better (or mask my poor driving skill)
Any thoughts (tyres and shocks first I suppose, euthanasia not an option as the Mortgage isn't paid off yet!)
Anyway I was at Harewood Hillclimb, Roadgoing Class, and I've got problems.
Either I'm overdriving it because a) it's down on power(don't think so) or b) I'm a crap driver (likely) or c) the suspension and tyres need sorting out.
There were two other minis in the Class, an excellent prepared "S" which beats me and the othe mini by a good few seconds and another 1275 that is a couple of seconds faster than me (assuming i can actually stay on the black stuff).
Car 1 has A008's on 10" rims, the other car and mine are on A539's on 12".
From the start I struggle to put the power down losing half a second sometimes, (we all do but my car is worst). Then on a tight right hander I roll to the left and can feel the inner wheel lifting and spinning. On a more open corners (Farmhouse and Quarry) the car drifts out to the outside, again the only way to stop it is to ease of on the right foot.
I'm ignoring the damp track and the fact that the car just snapped from understeer to oversteer a couple of times turning me into a Flymo.
The front is set quite low to limit weight transfer at the start and to try and reduce understeer, I guess i could lower the rear but that might increase understeer. I could go to A008 that might help.
Shockers are Spax rear and minspares front, Both adjustable but adjusters seized and cannot remember what the setting was. (Seemed to work on the road and road/historic rally). But their action is good, not leaking or weak. The rear is set up in accordance with Coopermans data (or was 8 year ago). Tried varying tyre prssures but there doesn't seem to be much difference.
I've actually put the car up for sale a while ago but it isn't getting any real interest and Plan B is to try and make it work better (or mask my poor driving skill)
Any thoughts (tyres and shocks first I suppose, euthanasia not an option as the Mortgage isn't paid off yet!)
you need to get it corner weighted and the suspension settings checked (and written down) before you chuck a load of money at it.
just about every mini I check has horrific weights - normally because the owner has just set the hilos so 'it looks right'
the suspension settings (and tracking) are always miles out - I did a mini recently for someone that had been 'professionally' set up - the castor was zero on one side and minus two on the other - any wonder the owner complained that it 'took some heaving on the wheel' to get it to go anywhere.
a couple of nights work absolutely transformed the car!
only when you know what you have can you start to try and improve things - just altering stuff willy nilly is no better than guessing!
just about every mini I check has horrific weights - normally because the owner has just set the hilos so 'it looks right'
the suspension settings (and tracking) are always miles out - I did a mini recently for someone that had been 'professionally' set up - the castor was zero on one side and minus two on the other - any wonder the owner complained that it 'took some heaving on the wheel' to get it to go anywhere.
a couple of nights work absolutely transformed the car!
only when you know what you have can you start to try and improve things - just altering stuff willy nilly is no better than guessing!
Thanks Richy
I don't want to throw anymore cash at it "willy nilly" as I have already spent far more than it is worth, just keeping the POS on the road. TBH it was more use as a shelf in the garage.Sorry to be so derogatory about it but I just don't get on with minis. I keep it for family reasons, cos I've got it and spent so much on it and cos I'm a stubborn old git convinced I can eventually get it to perform. Or maybe I'm just a duff driver.
Corner weights - how do you set them up, I've read the term plenty but not sure about the operation.
Yes the hi los were just set so that the car was even on both sides, any lower and the tyre hit the arch with 12" wheels, the tie bars were then shortened to accommodate the change in castor caused by lowering the car. This did make the car more stable in a straight line on bumpy country roads.
The rear is very slightly lowered - I cleaned the face of the trumpets a little no more.
I probably didn't write the first post very clearly but basically I feel like the car is controllable up to a point but then reaches the point where either the front washes out or I get snap oversteer which I suspect could be caused by me lifting off. At Farmhouse & Quarry I don't lift off as much as at Clarks or the Esses. At Chippys I can feel the car rolling and apparently lifting the inside front wheel, with wheel spin.
Oh and off the line in the wet, I was quicker than the more powerfull "S" with A008's on 10" rims!
Need to sort the water leak first (still haven't looked at it) then re wire the fuel pump.
Tony H
I don't want to throw anymore cash at it "willy nilly" as I have already spent far more than it is worth, just keeping the POS on the road. TBH it was more use as a shelf in the garage.Sorry to be so derogatory about it but I just don't get on with minis. I keep it for family reasons, cos I've got it and spent so much on it and cos I'm a stubborn old git convinced I can eventually get it to perform. Or maybe I'm just a duff driver.
Corner weights - how do you set them up, I've read the term plenty but not sure about the operation.
Yes the hi los were just set so that the car was even on both sides, any lower and the tyre hit the arch with 12" wheels, the tie bars were then shortened to accommodate the change in castor caused by lowering the car. This did make the car more stable in a straight line on bumpy country roads.
The rear is very slightly lowered - I cleaned the face of the trumpets a little no more.
I probably didn't write the first post very clearly but basically I feel like the car is controllable up to a point but then reaches the point where either the front washes out or I get snap oversteer which I suspect could be caused by me lifting off. At Farmhouse & Quarry I don't lift off as much as at Clarks or the Esses. At Chippys I can feel the car rolling and apparently lifting the inside front wheel, with wheel spin.
Oh and off the line in the wet, I was quicker than the more powerfull "S" with A008's on 10" rims!
Need to sort the water leak first (still haven't looked at it) then re wire the fuel pump.
Tony H
Hi Tony,
It is always difficult to advise on suspension settings without driving the car under test conditions to replicate the symptoms.
As Richy says, the corner weights are important, but it is probably more than just that.
I doubt you are actually lifting a front wheel; more likely just spinning the wheel which has the lower weight on it through a sharpish corner.
One thing you could try would be to check the toe-in on the rear wheels (set it to 1 mm), then fit a rear anti-roll bar. That will kill some of the understeer, but increase the lift-off oversteer a bit. So to drive it like that you will need to be setting the car up slightly sideways going into sharp corners, then getting back on the power very early to kill the oversteer. On a track that works, but for hill climbs it's a bit 'knife edge' driving. With an anti roll bar on the rear it is usual to fit an LSD, which is why it's really for racing.
I guess it's a bit more trial & error.
It is always difficult to advise on suspension settings without driving the car under test conditions to replicate the symptoms.
As Richy says, the corner weights are important, but it is probably more than just that.
I doubt you are actually lifting a front wheel; more likely just spinning the wheel which has the lower weight on it through a sharpish corner.
One thing you could try would be to check the toe-in on the rear wheels (set it to 1 mm), then fit a rear anti-roll bar. That will kill some of the understeer, but increase the lift-off oversteer a bit. So to drive it like that you will need to be setting the car up slightly sideways going into sharp corners, then getting back on the power very early to kill the oversteer. On a track that works, but for hill climbs it's a bit 'knife edge' driving. With an anti roll bar on the rear it is usual to fit an LSD, which is why it's really for racing.
I guess it's a bit more trial & error.
Cooperman said:
Hi Tony,
It is always difficult to advise on suspension settings without driving the car under test conditions to replicate the symptoms.
As Richy says, the corner weights are important, but it is probably more than just that.
I doubt you are actually lifting a front wheel; more likely just spinning the wheel which has the lower weight on it through a sharpish corner.
One thing you could try would be to check the toe-in on the rear wheels (set it to 1 mm), then fit a rear anti-roll bar. That will kill some of the understeer, but increase the lift-off oversteer a bit. So to drive it like that you will need to be setting the car up slightly sideways going into sharp corners, then getting back on the power very early to kill the oversteer. On a track that works, but for hill climbs it's a bit 'knife edge' driving. With an anti roll bar on the rear it is usual to fit an LSD, which is why it's really for racing.
I guess it's a bit more trial & error.
Thanks PeterIt is always difficult to advise on suspension settings without driving the car under test conditions to replicate the symptoms.
As Richy says, the corner weights are important, but it is probably more than just that.
I doubt you are actually lifting a front wheel; more likely just spinning the wheel which has the lower weight on it through a sharpish corner.
One thing you could try would be to check the toe-in on the rear wheels (set it to 1 mm), then fit a rear anti-roll bar. That will kill some of the understeer, but increase the lift-off oversteer a bit. So to drive it like that you will need to be setting the car up slightly sideways going into sharp corners, then getting back on the power very early to kill the oversteer. On a track that works, but for hill climbs it's a bit 'knife edge' driving. With an anti roll bar on the rear it is usual to fit an LSD, which is why it's really for racing.
I guess it's a bit more trial & error.
Trial & Error - The car is a trial and I can supply loads of errors!
The rear was set up as per your data and don't think it has moved from that, will check.
Yes you are surely correct in that whilst I can feel the car rolling it isn't actually lifting a wheel. Used to have the problem on my first Lotus 7 without LSD. Inside rear spinning at Country, in particular. The Caterham with LSD was totally different. The S that does very well does have an LSD I believe.
Like the idea of a rear anti roll bar to increase rear end movement as long as I don't end up reversing across the grass even more.
Need to investigate corner weights more and maybe as an interim, the shocks replaced with unseized adjustables. A very stiff rear might reduce the understeer/increase oversteer.
Still haven't confirmed the water leak is from the water pump (tonights exercise) but it would seem the head gasket has gone again (190, 190, 140. 190) unless there's a valve problem. Was still pulling well and the plugs are all nice and even.
The old adage is still true; stiffen up one end and that increases the grip at the other end. So a rear anti-roll bar stiffens the rear and thus increases grip at the front. But that makes it over-steer a lot more so once it starts to rotate the power must be applied to 'keep the front in front'. If that is not possible, then a spin will result.
A friend of mine tried a rear anti-roll bar on a rally 'S', but it made it difficult to drive on gravel where it wanted to spin all the time.
For hill-climbing, which I've never done, it is a very hectic drive with 1/10ths of seconds important so the need to be able to get back on the power as early as possible is obvious.
You could try slightly softer front damper settings.
I hope this helps, Tony.
A friend of mine tried a rear anti-roll bar on a rally 'S', but it made it difficult to drive on gravel where it wanted to spin all the time.
For hill-climbing, which I've never done, it is a very hectic drive with 1/10ths of seconds important so the need to be able to get back on the power as early as possible is obvious.
You could try slightly softer front damper settings.
I hope this helps, Tony.
Thanks again Peter
Found the water leak, 4000 miles after it was put together, the water pump bolts have all decided to leave the block....all 4 were slack!
Were definitely tight when built.
Tightened them again and no leak but guess a new gasket is in order.
Speaking of which, guess its a head off again job.
Found the water leak, 4000 miles after it was put together, the water pump bolts have all decided to leave the block....all 4 were slack!
Were definitely tight when built.
Tightened them again and no leak but guess a new gasket is in order.
Speaking of which, guess its a head off again job.
Rauno Altonnen always says that he advises people to left foot brake as it makes them slower until they get a lot of experience. I remember going out in the snow in 1965 to practice left foot braking in my 998 Cooper. It worked fine until I decided that I was going into one corner too quickly and instead of belting the brake with the left foot and keeping the throttle floored, I lifted off and promptly went off!
In the end I became quite good at it, especially when I bought a SAAB 96V4 as my road car.
In the end I became quite good at it, especially when I bought a SAAB 96V4 as my road car.
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