Early type front subframe mounts
Discussion
Well my new steering rack arrived from Minispares this morning so over the Christmas week I guess I know what I'll be doing - playing with the bairns new Scalextric - no I mean fitting the new rack.
The front subframe tower mounts on the Clubby are the two small bolts and a grommet type, I assume I need to undo these bolts and the the mounts to the floor. I kind of know the later big bolt top mounts, are these smaller ones likely to come out or am I heading for trouble...
Any advice about getting them out, and what was the hole with the grommet for?
I (Santa) got him the Demolition Derby set BTW
The front subframe tower mounts on the Clubby are the two small bolts and a grommet type, I assume I need to undo these bolts and the the mounts to the floor. I kind of know the later big bolt top mounts, are these smaller ones likely to come out or am I heading for trouble...
Any advice about getting them out, and what was the hole with the grommet for?
I (Santa) got him the Demolition Derby set BTW
Hi,
Yes you are correct - you will have to remove the bolts from the towers (3/8" diameter, 9/16" AF socket size) and the smaller bolts (5/16" dia and 1/2" spanner size) and nuts from the toe board/subframe mount. I would also at least slacken the the 2 bolts through the front panel holding the front end of the frame. The grommet is for the rubber cone compressor to pass through. I would soak all of the bolts ASAP with penetrating oil and only use a good fitting 6 sided socket on these bolts rather than a 12 sided one. You only need the rear end of the frame lowering a bit to get the rack out and the new one back in. Don't forget to only tighten the rack U bolts fully when the column is back on to the pinion of the rack and fastened to the lower dash rail.
Hope you get on OK
Ian
Yes you are correct - you will have to remove the bolts from the towers (3/8" diameter, 9/16" AF socket size) and the smaller bolts (5/16" dia and 1/2" spanner size) and nuts from the toe board/subframe mount. I would also at least slacken the the 2 bolts through the front panel holding the front end of the frame. The grommet is for the rubber cone compressor to pass through. I would soak all of the bolts ASAP with penetrating oil and only use a good fitting 6 sided socket on these bolts rather than a 12 sided one. You only need the rear end of the frame lowering a bit to get the rack out and the new one back in. Don't forget to only tighten the rack U bolts fully when the column is back on to the pinion of the rack and fastened to the lower dash rail.
Hope you get on OK
Ian
Hello again,
Again, you are correct in your reasoning about the threads - they are not visible without the cones and trumpets being removed - or hi-los in your case. If you were going to remove those anyway for inspection or cleaning, and assuming you have access to a spring compressor then you will have a view of the bolt ends.
Saying all of that, not many people would go to that trouble unless they had snapped a bolt. The choice is yours if you have the time. I personally would soak the area on top of the bulkhead where the bolt heads are sitting, then remove the rubber bung and give it one hell of a soaking with penetrating oil so that it hits the top of the tower on the frame itself and hope that it gets to the threaded area. Next, with a good fitting 6 sided socket (9/16" A/F) have a go at moving it. Sometimes tightening SLIGHTLY can free them up and then slowly undo them. Very important to remember that the rusty bit is sticking through the thread in the subframe - so don't go mad at removing a bolt in one go - ease it back and forth a little at a time as if you were cutting a thread with a tap. Occasionally blasting the area with penetrating oil too. Also, if the frame has never been out, then there should be a tab washer under the heads so that will need knocking back to get the socket on properly - make sure also that the socket goes all the way down the head and there is no crud in the way - you need all the help you can get!
Even earlier Minis had studs in the towers with nuts on the top.
Again, you are correct in your reasoning about the threads - they are not visible without the cones and trumpets being removed - or hi-los in your case. If you were going to remove those anyway for inspection or cleaning, and assuming you have access to a spring compressor then you will have a view of the bolt ends.
Saying all of that, not many people would go to that trouble unless they had snapped a bolt. The choice is yours if you have the time. I personally would soak the area on top of the bulkhead where the bolt heads are sitting, then remove the rubber bung and give it one hell of a soaking with penetrating oil so that it hits the top of the tower on the frame itself and hope that it gets to the threaded area. Next, with a good fitting 6 sided socket (9/16" A/F) have a go at moving it. Sometimes tightening SLIGHTLY can free them up and then slowly undo them. Very important to remember that the rusty bit is sticking through the thread in the subframe - so don't go mad at removing a bolt in one go - ease it back and forth a little at a time as if you were cutting a thread with a tap. Occasionally blasting the area with penetrating oil too. Also, if the frame has never been out, then there should be a tab washer under the heads so that will need knocking back to get the socket on properly - make sure also that the socket goes all the way down the head and there is no crud in the way - you need all the help you can get!
Even earlier Minis had studs in the towers with nuts on the top.
Thanks Orcadian
The cones and Hi Los would come out, I put them in a few years ago, without compressing the cone, just adjusted the Hi LO to, erm, Low.
I'l try the sqirt throug the hole approach
One more question (beginning to sound like Columbo) on the solid mounts to the bulkhead/floor, are the nuts on the sub frame captive or loose nuts. Don't want to spend hours trying to break a weld...
[Lesson learnt 42 years ago on the rear spring hanger on an MG Midget - two bolts up through the floor, two down BUT the ones that came down over had been glassed over so my Dad and I spent 2 nights trying to undo the nuts that were captive to the hanger plate as we didn't know there were bolts, thought they were studs!]
The cones and Hi Los would come out, I put them in a few years ago, without compressing the cone, just adjusted the Hi LO to, erm, Low.
I'l try the sqirt throug the hole approach
One more question (beginning to sound like Columbo) on the solid mounts to the bulkhead/floor, are the nuts on the sub frame captive or loose nuts. Don't want to spend hours trying to break a weld...
[Lesson learnt 42 years ago on the rear spring hanger on an MG Midget - two bolts up through the floor, two down BUT the ones that came down over had been glassed over so my Dad and I spent 2 nights trying to undo the nuts that were captive to the hanger plate as we didn't know there were bolts, thought they were studs!]
Hello again,
The solid mounts at the rear of the frame to floor point were just nuts,washers and bolts - unless anyone has been at them before! The bolt heads were inside, nuts outside (not good in this cold weather!) They are 5/16" diameter, so 1/2" A/F spanner size - nothing special, so no big deal to use a nut splitter or angle grinder to remove them if need be. The tower bolts are high tensile and if original, have a short section a little way under the head with reduced diameter, but you would have to try really hard to shear them. If you have the time and patience to remove the hi-lo's and wait a while until the penetrating oil does it's stuff, I'm sure you will have no problem. Let us know how you get on,
Ian
The solid mounts at the rear of the frame to floor point were just nuts,washers and bolts - unless anyone has been at them before! The bolt heads were inside, nuts outside (not good in this cold weather!) They are 5/16" diameter, so 1/2" A/F spanner size - nothing special, so no big deal to use a nut splitter or angle grinder to remove them if need be. The tower bolts are high tensile and if original, have a short section a little way under the head with reduced diameter, but you would have to try really hard to shear them. If you have the time and patience to remove the hi-lo's and wait a while until the penetrating oil does it's stuff, I'm sure you will have no problem. Let us know how you get on,
Ian
Orcadian said:
Hello again,
The solid mounts at the rear of the frame to floor point were just nuts,washers and bolts - unless anyone has been at them before! The bolt heads were inside, nuts outside (not good in this cold weather!) They are 5/16" diameter, so 1/2" A/F spanner size - nothing special, so no big deal to use a nut splitter or angle grinder to remove them if need be. The tower bolts are high tensile and if original, have a short section a little way under the head with reduced diameter, but you would have to try really hard to shear them. If you have the time and patience to remove the hi-lo's and wait a while until the penetrating oil does it's stuff, I'm sure you will have no problem. Let us know how you get on,
Ian
Thanks IanThe solid mounts at the rear of the frame to floor point were just nuts,washers and bolts - unless anyone has been at them before! The bolt heads were inside, nuts outside (not good in this cold weather!) They are 5/16" diameter, so 1/2" A/F spanner size - nothing special, so no big deal to use a nut splitter or angle grinder to remove them if need be. The tower bolts are high tensile and if original, have a short section a little way under the head with reduced diameter, but you would have to try really hard to shear them. If you have the time and patience to remove the hi-lo's and wait a while until the penetrating oil does it's stuff, I'm sure you will have no problem. Let us know how you get on,
Ian
The nuts on the outside look in remarkably good nick for 42 year old, must be the ziebart/oil leaks...
I think they'll undo from underneath having soaked them. Just didn't want to put a socket on the nut if it was a captive one.
I thought the top ones were Hi Tensile - there's a challenge for me.....oh and the tab washers are still there, under the paint/zeidart or whatever it was that was painted all over the inner wings etc.
Sounds like you shouldn't have too much of a struggle, so it's just the long bolts really. Another thought - and a method which often helps on stuff like this - I often use a big brass drift and a large-ish hammer (2lb) to strike the tops of the bolts before you try loosening them. A good sharp tap, not trying to mangle anything, is all that is usually required. The bonnet might be in the way to get a proper swing and the wiper motor might shield one of them a bit on the pass side but you sound resourceful enough.
Ian
Ian
Amazed!
The 4 bolts that have been in since 1971 just unscrewed!
however the shocker bushes - been on since 2004 fully copperslipped - are a different story.
Think I'll replace the shocks despite having only done around 4k miles as the adjusters are seized.
Any recomendations?
Car has neg bottom arms, HD tie bars, hi los. Sits low for hillclimbs but it a handfull on the country roads around home, darting about too much for comfort. Tracking was correct.
The 4 bolts that have been in since 1971 just unscrewed!
however the shocker bushes - been on since 2004 fully copperslipped - are a different story.
Think I'll replace the shocks despite having only done around 4k miles as the adjusters are seized.
Any recomendations?
Car has neg bottom arms, HD tie bars, hi los. Sits low for hillclimbs but it a handfull on the country roads around home, darting about too much for comfort. Tracking was correct.
Hello again,
Sounds like you survived the fe(a)stivities and I'm pleased you managed to get the bolts out without drama - sometimes high tensile stuff keeps in better nick than ordinary steel. Did the shocker bushes stay stuck to the top and bottom mounts and the rubbers just pull away over them? If thats the case then a few taps on the outside diameter of the sleeve will usually loosen them, followed by gripping with Mole grips (vice grips)to twist them loose. If you really knacker them, someone will have some, but if not and you are stuck I can make you some on the lathe in the New Year.
Ian
Sounds like you survived the fe(a)stivities and I'm pleased you managed to get the bolts out without drama - sometimes high tensile stuff keeps in better nick than ordinary steel. Did the shocker bushes stay stuck to the top and bottom mounts and the rubbers just pull away over them? If thats the case then a few taps on the outside diameter of the sleeve will usually loosen them, followed by gripping with Mole grips (vice grips)to twist them loose. If you really knacker them, someone will have some, but if not and you are stuck I can make you some on the lathe in the New Year.
Ian
Yes, there is a seal which goes over the rack pinion and gets trapped between the rack face and the toe-board (floor area) Make sure that the one you use is non absorbent closed cell type foam - there were some around a while back which were ordinary foam which soaked up water and gradually rotted the floor around the pinion. Sounds like you are on the home straight.
Ian
Ian
Thanks Ian
Kind of guessed it was on the outside as if it were inside the old 1971 item may have still existed and fallen on the floor.
The new one is the item Minispares sell, I would trust them to sell the correct item, it is black with a bit in the middle that you throw away...
Still cannot get over how easily the tower bolts came out yet the locking nuts on the track tod ends were a right pain last night despite being copper greased when put on (sometime in the last 10 years). Track rod ends were a breeze, just the nuts.
Hopefuly back together by the end of the week, time allowing, (son got a Scalextric for Christmas), then its a few other jobs, going to adjust the tie rods as I think lowering the car will have pushed the bottom arm back, reducing the castor angle. Then probably new front shocks, (wonder if lowering the car is causing the shocks to crash/bottom out(???), bottom ball joint, underseal the rear subframe again and its off for an MoT before the start of the 2014 season. Or not as the case may be.
Tony H
Kind of guessed it was on the outside as if it were inside the old 1971 item may have still existed and fallen on the floor.
The new one is the item Minispares sell, I would trust them to sell the correct item, it is black with a bit in the middle that you throw away...
Still cannot get over how easily the tower bolts came out yet the locking nuts on the track tod ends were a right pain last night despite being copper greased when put on (sometime in the last 10 years). Track rod ends were a breeze, just the nuts.
Hopefuly back together by the end of the week, time allowing, (son got a Scalextric for Christmas), then its a few other jobs, going to adjust the tie rods as I think lowering the car will have pushed the bottom arm back, reducing the castor angle. Then probably new front shocks, (wonder if lowering the car is causing the shocks to crash/bottom out(???), bottom ball joint, underseal the rear subframe again and its off for an MoT before the start of the 2014 season. Or not as the case may be.
Tony H
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