Preparing an historic race/rally mini
Discussion
Hi guys. After having my fire re-ignited after last weekends Goodwood Revival, I am contemplating building my 1960 mini into a race/rally car. Not to the level of Goodwood obviously(!) but I would like to use it for low level rallying but also eligible for some kind of classic circuit racing.
What I have at the moment is a blank canvas, a solid rust free dry suspension MK1. I also have access to lots of classic mini parts via a friend. I would like some advice from anyone who has done a similar thing and advice on where to find regs regarding what specs of rollcage etc. and engine legalities.
Not necessarily wanting a S rep but something complying with certain recognised regs.
Many thanks, Lee
What I have at the moment is a blank canvas, a solid rust free dry suspension MK1. I also have access to lots of classic mini parts via a friend. I would like some advice from anyone who has done a similar thing and advice on where to find regs regarding what specs of rollcage etc. and engine legalities.
Not necessarily wanting a S rep but something complying with certain recognised regs.
Many thanks, Lee
lee
you really need to make a choice, either a rally car or a racer as one car could not be built to do both sorts of events - a rally car would be too heavy to be competative as a racer for example plus the rule of safety etc are slowly moving apart for both sports
there is a historic race class for 850s - julius thurlgood is doing some 'under 1000' pre 1964 (i think), but they will be dog slow unless there is a group of people doing it.
you really need to pick one series and build a car to that, but try and choose one that has lots of other people doing it in the same sort of car (unless you like to be different!) and try and choose one that has modifications that can be removed or done that allow the car to race in other series as well - this then gives you a spread of events and series and of course gives the vehicle more of a financial value.
for example a semi space framed fire breather will, ironically, be worth less than a steel shelled, carefully modded car as the opportunity to use it will be greatly reduced
as for cages and stuff like that - only buy from a known recognised source, and if there is any doubt ask to see the relevant paperwork - there is nothing worse than buying a cheapish cage and discovering that the company selling it doesnt have the required papers (its even worse when you have been promised that they have, and have welded the cage in, but thats another story!!!)
for example, my car raced in the hgtcc, but would also be allowed to race in hscc (in the modded class), with the adjustable stuff and the bulkhead box removed it would be ok for 'full' hscc and various other stuff, with a little more work it could be turned into an apendix k car.
as such it has a good resale value, though if it had been tubbed, with a flip front etc i reckon that i could easily half the value of it as it wouldnt be eligble for any of the 'proper' series
the only pain in the arse bit is the welded in bulkhead box, but thats only a weekends work to remove if it really needed it.
oh, and i wouldnt even consider using secondhand parts - they are so stressed that your best biting the bullet and building it with as much new stuff to ensure reliability - there will be nothing worse than either failing scruitineering due to something thats not right, or braking down due to component faliure - at least when all the running gear is new you can start to life stuff and work out what is what.
ive run cars for people before that tried to get away with old stuff or 'it will last another race' - it always costs more in the long run!
you really need to make a choice, either a rally car or a racer as one car could not be built to do both sorts of events - a rally car would be too heavy to be competative as a racer for example plus the rule of safety etc are slowly moving apart for both sports
there is a historic race class for 850s - julius thurlgood is doing some 'under 1000' pre 1964 (i think), but they will be dog slow unless there is a group of people doing it.
you really need to pick one series and build a car to that, but try and choose one that has lots of other people doing it in the same sort of car (unless you like to be different!) and try and choose one that has modifications that can be removed or done that allow the car to race in other series as well - this then gives you a spread of events and series and of course gives the vehicle more of a financial value.
for example a semi space framed fire breather will, ironically, be worth less than a steel shelled, carefully modded car as the opportunity to use it will be greatly reduced
as for cages and stuff like that - only buy from a known recognised source, and if there is any doubt ask to see the relevant paperwork - there is nothing worse than buying a cheapish cage and discovering that the company selling it doesnt have the required papers (its even worse when you have been promised that they have, and have welded the cage in, but thats another story!!!)
for example, my car raced in the hgtcc, but would also be allowed to race in hscc (in the modded class), with the adjustable stuff and the bulkhead box removed it would be ok for 'full' hscc and various other stuff, with a little more work it could be turned into an apendix k car.
as such it has a good resale value, though if it had been tubbed, with a flip front etc i reckon that i could easily half the value of it as it wouldnt be eligble for any of the 'proper' series
the only pain in the arse bit is the welded in bulkhead box, but thats only a weekends work to remove if it really needed it.
oh, and i wouldnt even consider using secondhand parts - they are so stressed that your best biting the bullet and building it with as much new stuff to ensure reliability - there will be nothing worse than either failing scruitineering due to something thats not right, or braking down due to component faliure - at least when all the running gear is new you can start to life stuff and work out what is what.
ive run cars for people before that tried to get away with old stuff or 'it will last another race' - it always costs more in the long run!
Edited by guru_1071 on Thursday 22 September 16:30
As 'guru....' says, decide whether nyou want to race or rally as an historic car.
If you want to rally I have some information on rally 850's from the early 60's - did my first rally in an 850 in 1961 - we won!
The 'works' did prepare several 850's including possibly the best known, 16 BOJ (Google that) which was prepared for a chap named David Hiam who was Dunlop's Competitions Manager. A good friend of mine bought that car from David and I did a lot of events in it and some work on it as well.
For Historic Rally regs you need the RAC MSA 'Blue Book' which you get when you obtain your Competition Licence.
As an aside and a piece of useless information, when you Google 16 BOJ you'll get a load of photos of the car. Find the one taken at Snetterton in March 1962 and you'll see my first wife 4 months before I first met her.
If you want to rally I have some information on rally 850's from the early 60's - did my first rally in an 850 in 1961 - we won!
The 'works' did prepare several 850's including possibly the best known, 16 BOJ (Google that) which was prepared for a chap named David Hiam who was Dunlop's Competitions Manager. A good friend of mine bought that car from David and I did a lot of events in it and some work on it as well.
For Historic Rally regs you need the RAC MSA 'Blue Book' which you get when you obtain your Competition Licence.
As an aside and a piece of useless information, when you Google 16 BOJ you'll get a load of photos of the car. Find the one taken at Snetterton in March 1962 and you'll see my first wife 4 months before I first met her.
Edited by Cooperman on Friday 23 September 11:54
guru_1071 said:
...as such it has a good resale value, though if it had been tubbed, with a flip front etc i reckon that i could easily half the value of it as it wouldnt be eligble for any of the 'proper' series
'Proper' - Cheeky bastid! There is a few in Mini7 club that might have a different viewpoint Edited by guru_1071 on Thursday 22 September 16:30
Thanks guys for your quick responses. I an definately erring toward a circuit car, that I can drive on the road for fun also. I have ordered a couple of books on competition minis for inspiration, and I am well aware being a 1960 car I need to be sympathetic and keep it period ( as much as my kitcar and bike engined car background would love to do bad things to it... :-) . One of my old minis back in the day was a MK3 Downton visual rep, I'd love maybe to find out a bit more about the early MK1 tuned cars.
If any of you racing guys would not mind sparing me 10 minutes of your time on the phone to me to clarify a few points could you please PM me your number or call me on 07801 495568. I just would like a laymans guide to basic mods, for instance my car has a removable steel front but it is done in such a way you cannot tell by looking at it , and no inner wings, basic stuff like that. Cheers.
If any of you racing guys would not mind sparing me 10 minutes of your time on the phone to me to clarify a few points could you please PM me your number or call me on 07801 495568. I just would like a laymans guide to basic mods, for instance my car has a removable steel front but it is done in such a way you cannot tell by looking at it , and no inner wings, basic stuff like that. Cheers.
lee
no inner wings and a removable front is a definate no-no for any of the historic series.
you would get away with in hgtcc, but its such a restrictive mod (series wise) that i would just put it all back if you want to do anything 'proper historic' - theres no detriment to a full front - the engine in mine comes out in 20 min with no problems
if your building a race car, forget road use - the suspension and drivetrain just make them undrivable - the odd times i drove mine was just a pain - something that doesnt come on cam until 4-5000 rpm running full s/cuts, track gearing and a race lsd does not make a pleasant road experience at all - id rather walk to be honest!
no inner wings and a removable front is a definate no-no for any of the historic series.
you would get away with in hgtcc, but its such a restrictive mod (series wise) that i would just put it all back if you want to do anything 'proper historic' - theres no detriment to a full front - the engine in mine comes out in 20 min with no problems
if your building a race car, forget road use - the suspension and drivetrain just make them undrivable - the odd times i drove mine was just a pain - something that doesnt come on cam until 4-5000 rpm running full s/cuts, track gearing and a race lsd does not make a pleasant road experience at all - id rather walk to be honest!
Edited by guru_1071 on Saturday 24th September 13:21
Great pic!
I got a good book through the post, The Works Minis. Had some great info on the 850 Rally cars of 1960, was lookingfor inspiration, BUT NO ROLLCAGES!!! :-)
Whatever it turns out to be, it will have a cage... One proviso.
Erring now towards an historic rally car project. Going to look into the rollcage and shell strengthening rules, I think a 1960 car is quite rare now, so whatever I do at this stage must not compromise it's future value. Does anyone know a laymans version of beefing up mountings and seam welding on historic rally cars, or is that a no-no?
I got a good book through the post, The Works Minis. Had some great info on the 850 Rally cars of 1960, was lookingfor inspiration, BUT NO ROLLCAGES!!! :-)
Whatever it turns out to be, it will have a cage... One proviso.
Erring now towards an historic rally car project. Going to look into the rollcage and shell strengthening rules, I think a 1960 car is quite rare now, so whatever I do at this stage must not compromise it's future value. Does anyone know a laymans version of beefing up mountings and seam welding on historic rally cars, or is that a no-no?
Furyblade_Lee said:
Great pic!
I got a good book through the post, The Works Minis. Had some great info on the 850 Rally cars of 1960, was lookingfor inspiration, BUT NO ROLLCAGES!!! :-)
Whatever it turns out to be, it will have a cage... One proviso.
Erring now towards an historic rally car project. Going to look into the rollcage and shell strengthening rules, I think a 1960 car is quite rare now, so whatever I do at this stage must not compromise it's future value. Does anyone know a laymans version of beefing up mountings and seam welding on historic rally cars, or is that a no-no?
With current Historic Rallies, so long as the shell is basically sound here is really no need fo the sort of seam welding that used to be done on cars doing 2000 mile rough events like the old RAC or Scottish rallies.I got a good book through the post, The Works Minis. Had some great info on the 850 Rally cars of 1960, was lookingfor inspiration, BUT NO ROLLCAGES!!! :-)
Whatever it turns out to be, it will have a cage... One proviso.
Erring now towards an historic rally car project. Going to look into the rollcage and shell strengthening rules, I think a 1960 car is quite rare now, so whatever I do at this stage must not compromise it's future value. Does anyone know a laymans version of beefing up mountings and seam welding on historic rally cars, or is that a no-no?
What sort of Historic Rallies do you intend doing?
A well-built rally 850 can give about 50 bhp with reliability. You don't need straight-cut gears, but if a set of early 997/998 ratios is available, then that would be good.
The only sub-frame mod you need is to weld a triangular re-inforcing plate to the front tie-bar mountings.
If you want a suggested build-sheet PM me and I'll make some suggestions.
I think an historic rally 850 would be great to see out. I well remember rallying in the famous 850 '16BOJ' back in '62 and '63.
Cooperman, a build sheet, that would be fantastic! l.champion@virgin.net I already have a bike-engined car I use for trackdays, Alps touring and now sprints. It gives me my speed rush fix so the mini will be something different entirely unless it is an all-out racecar, which it seems would limit my road driving which I adore. So I would love a little historic mini I could do regulariry rallies, and may then move into something a bit more compettitive later. Some good advice here, thanks guys. Still deciding on the outcome, but it needs to be able to cope with an early morning road blat or I think I could not justify having it with the wife! I think I need to attend an event to have a look at a few historic cars close up.
Furyblade_Lee said:
Cooperman, a build sheet, that would be fantastic! l.champion@virgin.net I already have a bike-engined car I use for trackdays, Alps touring and now sprints. It gives me my speed rush fix so the mini will be something different entirely unless it is an all-out racecar, which it seems would limit my road driving which I adore. So I would love a little historic mini I could do regulariry rallies, and may then move into something a bit more compettitive later. Some good advice here, thanks guys. Still deciding on the outcome, but it needs to be able to cope with an early morning road blat or I think I could not justify having it with the wife! I think I need to attend an event to have a look at a few historic cars close up.
I'll try to get it to you tomorrow.You'll be in the 'Post-Historic' class, so you will need rear seats.
Brakes will have to be the 7" 998 discs and calipers.
So long as the shell is sound and completely rust-free it'll be strong enough. The front sub-frame will benefit from having the tie-bar mountings (the 'ears') fitted with triangular 4 mm thick plates welded on to prevent them bending back.
Make sure the seats are fitted properly in accordance with MSA regulations - look in the 'Blue Book'.
PM me if you have any specific questions or want any photos.
By the way, fit twin tanks as a 998 Cooper won't go far in competition with only a 5.5 gallon standard tank.
Brakes will have to be the 7" 998 discs and calipers.
So long as the shell is sound and completely rust-free it'll be strong enough. The front sub-frame will benefit from having the tie-bar mountings (the 'ears') fitted with triangular 4 mm thick plates welded on to prevent them bending back.
Make sure the seats are fitted properly in accordance with MSA regulations - look in the 'Blue Book'.
PM me if you have any specific questions or want any photos.
By the way, fit twin tanks as a 998 Cooper won't go far in competition with only a 5.5 gallon standard tank.
Thanks Cooperman.
I have no experience with rallycar building, soo I will deffiniatly ask a lot if I launch my project. Now I am only gathering the informations.
I have read the FIA Appendix Js from 69 to 82. I have to pick one and build my car to match a given date. It is not easy to choose. Maybe the best would be 71 regulation as it will let me use non-standard wheels/tyres.
What are the weakest links of a mini during a rally?
I have no experience with rallycar building, soo I will deffiniatly ask a lot if I launch my project. Now I am only gathering the informations.
I have read the FIA Appendix Js from 69 to 82. I have to pick one and build my car to match a given date. It is not easy to choose. Maybe the best would be 71 regulation as it will let me use non-standard wheels/tyres.
What are the weakest links of a mini during a rally?
For rallying the earliest category you can get a Mini into the better as you'll be more competitive if in the oldest category.
The weakness with all rally minis is in the transmission. All my retirements except one have been transmission related - not counting crashes!
My 1310 cc 1964 'S' has about 115 bhp at the flywheel and I've broken drive shaft, diff pin, cross-pin diff, gear linkage, drop gears and CV joint, all at different times. I now run all SC gearbox and drops, comp drive shafts (with no CV joint circlip groove) and latest cross-pin diff. That's about the best you can do within the regulations.
A 998 would be competitive in the pre-1968 up to 1000 cc class, although when my son had a 1967 998 Cooper with 72 bhp it struggled a bit so we fitted a full-spec 970 'S' lump with SC gears, 4.1:1 final drive, etc. with 85 bhp at 7000 rpm. It still got beaten by a 998 Imp running twin Webers and possibly bored to 1040 cc!
The weakness with all rally minis is in the transmission. All my retirements except one have been transmission related - not counting crashes!
My 1310 cc 1964 'S' has about 115 bhp at the flywheel and I've broken drive shaft, diff pin, cross-pin diff, gear linkage, drop gears and CV joint, all at different times. I now run all SC gearbox and drops, comp drive shafts (with no CV joint circlip groove) and latest cross-pin diff. That's about the best you can do within the regulations.
A 998 would be competitive in the pre-1968 up to 1000 cc class, although when my son had a 1967 998 Cooper with 72 bhp it struggled a bit so we fitted a full-spec 970 'S' lump with SC gears, 4.1:1 final drive, etc. with 85 bhp at 7000 rpm. It still got beaten by a 998 Imp running twin Webers and possibly bored to 1040 cc!
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