A Series engine
Discussion
Well I have a couple of questions about A series engines...
I had better give you guys a short back story, basically I have a MG Metro MK1 with the classic A Series engine. I have started to restore the car, which is going to be a mega job I think, judging by the amount of rust that I have found so far!
So I am thinking along the lines of more power, MUCH more power. Obviously there are a few routes open to me and I am split on which to go down, so here are my initial thoughts.
1. Conversion to either VTEC or a VX Redtop engine - not sure that it will fit and would rather keep the original engine. Also this may be beyond my abilities but worth further consideration.
2. Forced induction, a) turbo - not keen at all,
b) supercharger - could be persuaded
3. Fast road/race built engine from a) MED
b) Bill Richards
c) Swifttune
d) other
Option 3 is my prefered option. I would certainly need someone to build the engine for me as I have never attempted anything like this before, and I would like the car to be reliableish. It would also be nice to have over 110bhp.
So the questions are...
1) Is it possible and relatively easy to do a conversion to the metro? The inner wings cannot be cut as they are structural.
2) What would be the rough cost of having an engine built to a fast road spec from the above companies? MED were the only ones with any price on their website and it was over £3,000 which I thought was expensive for an A series.
3) What would you do?
Open to suggestions, I have a fair amount of time to think and save for this.
I had better give you guys a short back story, basically I have a MG Metro MK1 with the classic A Series engine. I have started to restore the car, which is going to be a mega job I think, judging by the amount of rust that I have found so far!
So I am thinking along the lines of more power, MUCH more power. Obviously there are a few routes open to me and I am split on which to go down, so here are my initial thoughts.
1. Conversion to either VTEC or a VX Redtop engine - not sure that it will fit and would rather keep the original engine. Also this may be beyond my abilities but worth further consideration.
2. Forced induction, a) turbo - not keen at all,
b) supercharger - could be persuaded
3. Fast road/race built engine from a) MED
b) Bill Richards
c) Swifttune
d) other
Option 3 is my prefered option. I would certainly need someone to build the engine for me as I have never attempted anything like this before, and I would like the car to be reliableish. It would also be nice to have over 110bhp.
So the questions are...
1) Is it possible and relatively easy to do a conversion to the metro? The inner wings cannot be cut as they are structural.
2) What would be the rough cost of having an engine built to a fast road spec from the above companies? MED were the only ones with any price on their website and it was over £3,000 which I thought was expensive for an A series.
3) What would you do?
Open to suggestions, I have a fair amount of time to think and save for this.
Alfachick said:
1. Conversion to either VTEC or a VX Redtop engine - not sure that it will fit and would rather keep the original engine. Also this may be beyond my abilities but worth further consideration.
2. Forced induction, a) turbo - not keen at all,
b) supercharger - could be persuaded
3. Fast road/race built engine from a) MED
b) Bill Richards
c) Swifttune
d) other
Option 3 is my prefered option. I would certainly need someone to build the engine for me as I have never attempted anything like this before, and I would like the car to be reliableish. It would also be nice to have over 110bhp.
So the questions are...
1) Is it possible and relatively easy to do a conversion to the metro? The inner wings cannot be cut as they are structural.
2) What would be the rough cost of having an engine built to a fast road spec from the above companies? MED were the only ones with any price on their website and it was over £3,000 which I thought was expensive for an A series.
3) What would you do?
Open to suggestions, I have a fair amount of time to think and save for this.
I have a supercharged A series, its great fun but for the power you are after, i would avoid forced induction. there are too many tweaking issues, and the power you want can be achieved reliably and easily without forced induction.2. Forced induction, a) turbo - not keen at all,
b) supercharger - could be persuaded
3. Fast road/race built engine from a) MED
b) Bill Richards
c) Swifttune
d) other
Option 3 is my prefered option. I would certainly need someone to build the engine for me as I have never attempted anything like this before, and I would like the car to be reliableish. It would also be nice to have over 110bhp.
So the questions are...
1) Is it possible and relatively easy to do a conversion to the metro? The inner wings cannot be cut as they are structural.
2) What would be the rough cost of having an engine built to a fast road spec from the above companies? MED were the only ones with any price on their website and it was over £3,000 which I thought was expensive for an A series.
3) What would you do?
Open to suggestions, I have a fair amount of time to think and save for this.
i would also stick with the A series, its a strong engine when looked after and easily/cheaply repaired in most cases, especially in comparision with the other conversions.
i would go with your option 3 too. i can only speak from experience of using Bill Richards, and not using the others so i cant really comment. although from what i understand the other two mentioned are also very good.
Bill will look after you and build exactly what you want, and you will be able to walk away with peace of mind, and he is super friendly and helpfull.
as for budget £3k is reasonable if its all getting built for you.
i hope this helps a little.
Thanks a lot Allycat 
Its nice to have your thoughts backed up by others. Also one of the main things that is putting me off the transplant route is the sva/iva test that may need to be done.
What kind of tweeking do you mean when you say about it with regards to forced induction? I am not a fan of turboing the A series but the supercharger still beckons me a little, would it be possible to supercharge a built fast road/race engine?
Sorry for all the questions. Just trying to figure out the best course of action so I can set a firm plan to work towards...
Its nice to have your thoughts backed up by others. Also one of the main things that is putting me off the transplant route is the sva/iva test that may need to be done. What kind of tweeking do you mean when you say about it with regards to forced induction? I am not a fan of turboing the A series but the supercharger still beckons me a little, would it be possible to supercharge a built fast road/race engine?
Sorry for all the questions. Just trying to figure out the best course of action so I can set a firm plan to work towards...
no problem, well mines is good fun, and my intention from the begining was to supercharge it, so when i had the engine built it was done with all this in mind including the power figures i was after (its carb by the way not injection)i believe you can supercharge most if not all A series even fairly standard 998's as long as the engine is in good condition. pay a visit to vmaxscarts website for some generall chargin advice.
as it stands 11 months down the line (engine all run in) and with a long drive to Le Mans under the belt, it generally speaking has been increadibly reliable. the only problems i really face are overheating issues (the charger gets very hot) so my advice, having learned the hard way is to take into consideration the cooling if you do take this route, you will need more than just an alloy side mounted rad. i would also go for an exhaust wrap as the charger sits on top of the manifold.
the other issue is fuelling, because the carb gets moved to the front and the fuel has to go uphill to get to the charger, getting the fuelling right has been troublesome. its fine untill it has warmed up then it runs rich up the high end. yet if you run it leaner it cuts out on idle, so im still trying to find a happy medium.
i love it, and im sticking with it, but with the power you quoted of 110 bhp i think Naturally aspirated is most likely the way forward, without having to worry about the extra heat brought on from the charger, and the following cooling upgrades, in comparision to NA.
i think the way you are doing it is right, hear what others have to say on here too.
as it stands 11 months down the line (engine all run in) and with a long drive to Le Mans under the belt, it generally speaking has been increadibly reliable. the only problems i really face are overheating issues (the charger gets very hot) so my advice, having learned the hard way is to take into consideration the cooling if you do take this route, you will need more than just an alloy side mounted rad. i would also go for an exhaust wrap as the charger sits on top of the manifold.
the other issue is fuelling, because the carb gets moved to the front and the fuel has to go uphill to get to the charger, getting the fuelling right has been troublesome. its fine untill it has warmed up then it runs rich up the high end. yet if you run it leaner it cuts out on idle, so im still trying to find a happy medium.
i love it, and im sticking with it, but with the power you quoted of 110 bhp i think Naturally aspirated is most likely the way forward, without having to worry about the extra heat brought on from the charger, and the following cooling upgrades, in comparision to NA.
i think the way you are doing it is right, hear what others have to say on here too.
110bhp with decent drivability will require engine management. The output is achievable on standard carb/dizzy but road manners will be heavily compromised due to camshaft.
MG Metro cam (CAM 6684) in your engine has loads of potential with a freer flowing head - 85bhp is straightforward. With a Big Bore conversion you'll get 90+ if set-up correctly.
If you've an MG Metro motor complete you've already got a decent carb (HIF6/44) and a very good inlet system/manifold. Port that. Have the parts you've already got optimsed.
Throwing 3K at an A-series = Race Engine territory.
MG Metro cam (CAM 6684) in your engine has loads of potential with a freer flowing head - 85bhp is straightforward. With a Big Bore conversion you'll get 90+ if set-up correctly.
If you've an MG Metro motor complete you've already got a decent carb (HIF6/44) and a very good inlet system/manifold. Port that. Have the parts you've already got optimsed.
Throwing 3K at an A-series = Race Engine territory.
dont forget that a k series will go into a metro with ease - a customer of mine has a metro with a 1.8vvc fitted which is brutal!
to keep it right though, a nice 1380 would be good in a metro as they are a smooth car, unfairly rubbished by many people,
the problems with costing a decent engine is that it doesnt really matter what it is, quality parts will still cost money.
i do have a soft spot for mk1 metros and would, if i had the space and time gladly have one in my fleet - though i must admit that 'in the day' i have bought tens of them (50 plus i guess), just to yank the motors out for minis......the good old days when a full 1275 mg or vanden plas metro with nothing more than a smashed ignition lock and a little bit of front end damge would be 99 quid - or delivered for 120 quid all in from simpsons salvage in York
we used to fire them up, go round the block (ahem!) to make sure they selected all gears, kick the screen out, throw the bonnet and anything else not required through the screen hole (inc the 1000cc engine removed from the mini) and tug the motor in about 45 min, the remains would then be left to be returned to the yard when the next one was delivered - 1275 engine swop in a mini, with engine supplied - £200 quid!
happy days!
to keep it right though, a nice 1380 would be good in a metro as they are a smooth car, unfairly rubbished by many people,
the problems with costing a decent engine is that it doesnt really matter what it is, quality parts will still cost money.
i do have a soft spot for mk1 metros and would, if i had the space and time gladly have one in my fleet - though i must admit that 'in the day' i have bought tens of them (50 plus i guess), just to yank the motors out for minis......the good old days when a full 1275 mg or vanden plas metro with nothing more than a smashed ignition lock and a little bit of front end damge would be 99 quid - or delivered for 120 quid all in from simpsons salvage in York
we used to fire them up, go round the block (ahem!) to make sure they selected all gears, kick the screen out, throw the bonnet and anything else not required through the screen hole (inc the 1000cc engine removed from the mini) and tug the motor in about 45 min, the remains would then be left to be returned to the yard when the next one was delivered - 1275 engine swop in a mini, with engine supplied - £200 quid!
happy days!
FWDRacer said:
110bhp with decent drivability will require engine management. The output is achievable on standard carb/dizzy but road manners will be heavily compromised due to camshaft.
MG Metro cam (CAM 6684) in your engine has loads of potential with a freer flowing head - 85bhp is straightforward. With a Big Bore conversion you'll get 90+ if set-up correctly.
If you've an MG Metro motor complete you've already got a decent carb (HIF6/44) and a very good inlet system/manifold. Port that. Have the parts you've already got optimsed.
Throwing 3K at an A-series = Race Engine territory.
When the car was still on the road I did port the head, and had started buying goodies, such as a 3-2-1 exhaust manifold, and a lightened fly wheel. Unfortunately the car came off the road before I could fit these, due to a huge MOT failure sheet and the gearbox starting to disintegrate. MG Metro cam (CAM 6684) in your engine has loads of potential with a freer flowing head - 85bhp is straightforward. With a Big Bore conversion you'll get 90+ if set-up correctly.
If you've an MG Metro motor complete you've already got a decent carb (HIF6/44) and a very good inlet system/manifold. Port that. Have the parts you've already got optimsed.
Throwing 3K at an A-series = Race Engine territory.
The rough plan is to make her my "fast" car. Would an engineering shop be able to get over 110bhp from that engine without too much bother? Its a low mileage car, although the head gasket had blown a couple of times, and the head had been skimmed.
I think electronic ignition will be added, although I would like to keep her on carbs. Would 2k be a reasonable budget for this?
To get 95 bhp from a 1275 engine is not difficult, to get that to 100 will cost disproportionally more and to get to 110 bhp will cost a lot more.
For a genuine 110 you will need at least a Kent 286 cam, 11:1 comp ratio, twin HS4 of equivalent carbs on a good alloy inlet manifold, a very well gas-flowed head with big valves, customised ignition, an LCB exhaust manifold with comp exhaust system, accurately timed-in cam, balanced crank, rods and pistons to cope with the 6400 rpm you'll be pulling at that 110 bhp.
You'll also need a straight-cut close ratio gear set to keep it on the cam together with a lower final drive in order to pull away from est with that high 1st gear.
In fact, on the road, a 95 bhp car would probably actually be quicker as you won't have to be so constantly aggressive tomake it go. My own Mk.1 Cooper 'S' rally car has 115 bhp and it is great in competition, but horrible on the road in general terms.
For a genuine 110 you will need at least a Kent 286 cam, 11:1 comp ratio, twin HS4 of equivalent carbs on a good alloy inlet manifold, a very well gas-flowed head with big valves, customised ignition, an LCB exhaust manifold with comp exhaust system, accurately timed-in cam, balanced crank, rods and pistons to cope with the 6400 rpm you'll be pulling at that 110 bhp.
You'll also need a straight-cut close ratio gear set to keep it on the cam together with a lower final drive in order to pull away from est with that high 1st gear.
In fact, on the road, a 95 bhp car would probably actually be quicker as you won't have to be so constantly aggressive tomake it go. My own Mk.1 Cooper 'S' rally car has 115 bhp and it is great in competition, but horrible on the road in general terms.
I am currently shoehorning a 1.8 K series MGTF engine complete with drivetrain into a convertible cooper. Should be a flyer.
Owned literally dozens and dozens of A series engines in various cars manly Minis. The A series is a great engine but over 60 years old in design.
Any of the alloy twin cam performance engines of recent manufacture will give you a Mini that is really outstanding.
As others have said the A series shows diminishing returns above 100BHP.
A well set up K series will produce 150BHP happily with a 5 speed box.
A well set up Ford Duratec or Zetec will hapilly produce 200 BHP. The latest set up I have seen with a Red Top Vauxhall was producing in excess of 200BHP.
100 BHP more will put your Mini into a rocket category: and save weight.
I would suggest an engine swap.
The A series is a wonderful historic engine. I love it.
But in output terms it is not in the league of modern engines.
Owned literally dozens and dozens of A series engines in various cars manly Minis. The A series is a great engine but over 60 years old in design.
Any of the alloy twin cam performance engines of recent manufacture will give you a Mini that is really outstanding.
As others have said the A series shows diminishing returns above 100BHP.
A well set up K series will produce 150BHP happily with a 5 speed box.
A well set up Ford Duratec or Zetec will hapilly produce 200 BHP. The latest set up I have seen with a Red Top Vauxhall was producing in excess of 200BHP.
100 BHP more will put your Mini into a rocket category: and save weight.
I would suggest an engine swap.
The A series is a wonderful historic engine. I love it.
But in output terms it is not in the league of modern engines.
So it seems that there are basically 2 routes to go down.
1/ engine swap.
2/ spend a huge amount on the A series to get reasonable bhp.
Re engine swap: I am aware that the "rules" have changed regarding this, although I am not entirely sure what the deal is. If I did a swap would the car have to pass an iva test? If this is the case then I really don't think that this route is a good idea for me.
Also as its going into a metro rather than a mini, I am not sure that it will fit as I believe that the inner wings can't be chopped about as much due to the fact that they are structural items.
I feel some time with a tape measure coming on....
Re A series: If the engine was tuned to say 95bhp and at a later date I wanted more power would it be possible to upgrade it at minimal cost? Basically can I do the upgrades in stages, e.g run 95bhp for a year or so, then at a later date get it upgraded to 110bhp or so? I imagine this is possible, but would it cost more than just going for the 110bhp straight off the bat?
The idea is that the metro will be a bit of a Q car and scare a few of the local neds, whilst being great fun to drive, and generally sate my "need" for a fast car.
I think I do have Vissards book at home somewhere, I will have to look it out and peruse it when I get back.
1/ engine swap.
2/ spend a huge amount on the A series to get reasonable bhp.
Re engine swap: I am aware that the "rules" have changed regarding this, although I am not entirely sure what the deal is. If I did a swap would the car have to pass an iva test? If this is the case then I really don't think that this route is a good idea for me.
Also as its going into a metro rather than a mini, I am not sure that it will fit as I believe that the inner wings can't be chopped about as much due to the fact that they are structural items.
I feel some time with a tape measure coming on....
Re A series: If the engine was tuned to say 95bhp and at a later date I wanted more power would it be possible to upgrade it at minimal cost? Basically can I do the upgrades in stages, e.g run 95bhp for a year or so, then at a later date get it upgraded to 110bhp or so? I imagine this is possible, but would it cost more than just going for the 110bhp straight off the bat?
The idea is that the metro will be a bit of a Q car and scare a few of the local neds, whilst being great fun to drive, and generally sate my "need" for a fast car.
I think I do have Vissards book at home somewhere, I will have to look it out and peruse it when I get back.
IVA is generally (bound to be odd exceptions) only required if the chassis of an original car is modified or replaced
Replacing the drivetrain does not require IVA. Nor replacing the interior changing, paint colour or the whole suspension etc.
Thus the Triumph Herald chassis can be used in unmodified form (repairs to chassis is not replacement) with a different body and suspension as a base for a car without IVA. Original Reg would be retained and if its old enough historic status and tax free status remains with car.
I have got just such a chassis but at my current rate of output it will be a year before I get to it. If I did not retain this but used a tube steel chassis IT WOULD REQUIRE IVA.
That is why any kit using the original chassis such as the MEVX5 which retains the central chassis of the MX5 is so much easier to build. I consistently advise would be builders that NO IVA is the best way forward.
But you HAVE to retain the chassis. Chopping the chassis on a Porsche RSK to make a Volkswagen based Kit car WOULD require IVA because the original chassis is altered.
I find the DVLA helpful generally and VOSA helpful consistently on projects.
But I do make sure to ask the right questions.
Replacing the drivetrain does not require IVA. Nor replacing the interior changing, paint colour or the whole suspension etc.
Thus the Triumph Herald chassis can be used in unmodified form (repairs to chassis is not replacement) with a different body and suspension as a base for a car without IVA. Original Reg would be retained and if its old enough historic status and tax free status remains with car.
I have got just such a chassis but at my current rate of output it will be a year before I get to it. If I did not retain this but used a tube steel chassis IT WOULD REQUIRE IVA.
That is why any kit using the original chassis such as the MEVX5 which retains the central chassis of the MX5 is so much easier to build. I consistently advise would be builders that NO IVA is the best way forward.
But you HAVE to retain the chassis. Chopping the chassis on a Porsche RSK to make a Volkswagen based Kit car WOULD require IVA because the original chassis is altered.
I find the DVLA helpful generally and VOSA helpful consistently on projects.
But I do make sure to ask the right questions.
Alfachick said:
The idea is that the metro will be a bit of a Q car and scare a few of the local neds,
chicksomeone has already built your dream metro......
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ROVER-100-metro-1-8-vvc-...
i bet it goes well!
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