timing gear

Author
Discussion

minigreen94

Original Poster:

160 posts

163 months

Sunday 7th August 2011
quotequote all
right, ordering my kent 286 for my 998 and need some help timing ot all up. planning on buying from minispares but dont know what gear to get, standard duplex with an offset woodruff key, or fully adustable vernier duplex. which would be better?
thanks

Cooperman

4,428 posts

257 months

Sunday 7th August 2011
quotequote all
If you anticipate regularly re-building your engine, as in, say, a race or rally application, then a vernier sprocket set is a good idea. If it's for a road engine, then just get a set of woodruff offset keys, say a 2 deg, 4 deg, 6 deg and 8 deg, so that you have a choice when doing the timing accurately.
It's a good idea to time to 2 degrees advanced from nominal to allow for initial chain stretch.
If you intend using over about 5500 rpm, then it's best not to fit a tensioner as the tensioner pad can break up at repeated high revs.

minigreen94

Original Poster:

160 posts

163 months

Sunday 7th August 2011
quotequote all
thanks, just priced up a set of offset keys, they're about 7 pounds each. so a set of them aswell as standard gear is only about 20 quid cheaper than the vernier kit. do you think it is worth buying the adjustable set and save fiddling around? also if there isnt a chain tensioner how is it set and kept tensioned?
thanks in advance

Cooperman

4,428 posts

257 months

Sunday 7th August 2011
quotequote all
If you fit it up as standard then measure the angular error, you only need one offset key to correct the measured error. You might find that it times in accurately without any error first time.

minigreen94

Original Poster:

160 posts

163 months

Monday 8th August 2011
quotequote all
thanks for info, what about the tensioning?

Cooperman

4,428 posts

257 months

Monday 8th August 2011
quotequote all
The original Cooper 'S' didn't have any chain tensioning as it was the first Mini to use a Duplex chain. So long as you use a top quality chain it's OK. the 'cheapie' chains soon stretch. Still, it's better a stretched chain than a broken up tensioner.

minigreen94

Original Poster:

160 posts

163 months

Tuesday 9th August 2011
quotequote all
right ok thanks alot, i was considering the mini spares duplex chain, you reckon this would be ok?

Cooperman

4,428 posts

257 months

Tuesday 9th August 2011
quotequote all
That's what I use and they seem OK even at very high revs like 7000 rpm plus.

minigreen94

Original Poster:

160 posts

163 months

Tuesday 9th August 2011
quotequote all
ive just ordered a kent duplex vernier kit from minispares smile

minigreen94

Original Poster:

160 posts

163 months

Tuesday 9th August 2011
quotequote all
while we're on the subject, i am going to need help timing it all up, i havnt done this before, my dad has a bit of an idea but hes not 100% so any help or tips would be appreciated

Cooperman

4,428 posts

257 months

Tuesday 9th August 2011
quotequote all
When you get all the bits send me a pm with your personal email address and I'll send you a timing-in procedure if that'll help.

minigreen94

Original Poster:

160 posts

163 months

Wednesday 10th August 2011
quotequote all
will do thanks alot for all the help smile

Steffan

10,362 posts

235 months

Wednesday 10th August 2011
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Nice to see real knowledge being displayed by Cooperman. Good post.

7500 is a lot of revs for an A series engine. Hope its balanced!!

Its worth remembering this engine was created in 1948 not long before I was born. Like me it has aged (probably better than me) and techniques that apply to modern twin cam crossflow hemi head engines achieve wondrous outputs which would leave the A series gasping whatever you do to it.

Still my favourite engine the 1275 being the best with the 12G940 head for everyday use and some esoteric bits and 1340cc with A40 pistons (or modern equivalents) for pure power.

Duplex chains were so much of an improvement in the 1960's that I think BMC simply did not bother with a tensioner. Remember this engine started as a low compression side valve. Tensioners on the chain were totally unnecessary.

The improvements that BMC made over 40 years included a couple of overhead cam engines based on the A series block. I rather think Harry Weslake was the brains behind this. But as in all thing at BMC it eventually came to nought.

Good luck on your rebuild.

Great to see this engine still attracts enthusiasts

lgomgf

237 posts

195 months

Thursday 11th August 2011
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I have a quick question... do I need to remove the engine from the car to exchange the camshaft? I didnt buy anything yet, I need to buy some more goods and was thinking of getting basically the same parts as our fellow friend above... I have a 1993 spi.

Steffan

10,362 posts

235 months

Thursday 11th August 2011
quotequote all
IMO you could theoretically change the cam without lifting the engine out, or more probably dropping the subframe and engine. But it would be bloody tight and I would not recommend this.

Given the really tight working area in a mini unless you are Harry Houdini I think engine out is a simpler better more practical proposition for the majority of serious engine mods.

It is certainly my recommendation.

Subframe out means you can prop the subframe with the engine still in, using the subframe as a working frame without needing an engine stand which garages would use. Saves costs gives a good working height for actual work on the engine.

Mini's are easily the best small car ever made, certainly the most loved.

But they are NOT easy in terms of access to most operations.

Quart in a pint pot!

minigreen94

Original Poster:

160 posts

163 months

Thursday 11th August 2011
quotequote all
i agree ,
us teenagers need the valuable knowledge of these guys. and its much appreciated.
it has been suggested that you could bore a hole thro the inner wing to remove the cam........but i dont know how feasible that is as io only read it on here.
cooperman has most of the info you need. he's been a good help to me and my dad.

Cooperman

4,428 posts

257 months

Thursday 11th August 2011
quotequote all
You can take the cam out of an 850, 997, 998, 1098 or any genuine Cooper 'S' (1071, 970 or 1275) without removing the engine as there are cam chest covers on the back of the block through which the cam followers can be taken out. The cam can then be withdrawn through a 2.5" hole which you cut in the inner LH wing.
On the non-'S' 1275, the back of the block is solid, so the cam followers can't be accessed.
Anyway, with a new cam you do need new followers, so it's an excuse to check the engine over to make sure it is OK for all that lovely power you'll be getting with the new cam, etc.

Steffan

10,362 posts

235 months

Friday 12th August 2011
quotequote all
Good advice from Cooperman.

These are old engines and I would check everything thoroughly and completely before using this kind of power from an A series.

The A series is a very strong engine but old technology and 7500 revs is high for an A series. I can be done one of my 1340 engines is so cammed up it revs to 8000 revs if you let it.

But not for long.

I have seen few con rods break in the A series but it does happen and usually smashes the engine block and gearbox. Very expensive.

Check it all while you can.

Cooperman

4,428 posts

257 months

Friday 12th August 2011
quotequote all
I do rev my rally Cooper 'S' top over 7000 rpm, but it has a fully balanced, stroked 7 indexed crank made from EN40B forged steel, the rods are lightened and balanced.
However, it is always in mind that if a rod breaks of the crank snaps, all the bits will go down into the straight-cut competition gearbox and the cost will be huge, probably over £4500 to replace fully. A sobering thought!

lgomgf

237 posts

195 months

Friday 12th August 2011
quotequote all
Steffan said:
Subframe out means you can prop the subframe with the engine still in, using the subframe as a working frame without needing an engine stand which garages would use. Saves costs gives a good working height for actual work on the engine.
This sounds like a winter project... I didnt find any info on removing the subframe with engine one, how do you do it.... Sounds like a good idea to have the engine attached to the frame and use it as an engine stand... can use the extra money to buy some more bits for the engine instead...