Just how good/bad is a TVR's (Griffiths) handling?
Discussion
When reading Autocars'excellent article on buying a second hand Griffith, it occured to me that once again whilst raving about the straight line performance of the TVR, it was less complimentary on its handling -something along the lines of a decent hot hatch being able to see it off around corners. What is the general concensus on this topic - is the Griffith (or any TVR for that matter) really a poor handling car? I understand that the TVR has a race bred chassis developed from the Tuscan race cars, so when the handling is criticised is this in comparison with other performance cars; Porsches, Lotuses etc or would a modern Eurobox really be capable of outhandling the gorgeous griff? 
quote:
is the Griffith (or any TVR for that matter) really a poor handling car?
IMHO No
It is (as are other TVRs) rear wheel drive, relies on the driver to keep it on the road, not technology, and is a decade behind everything else because that's when it was designed!
Now, ask the question "is it a REWARDING drive?" that's the question.......
...and the answer's YES!
The Griffith is a delight to drive, enhanced by the fact that the weight is distributed well, since the engine block is quite far back. Handling will depend on many things (find some tyre threads) including personal preference so don't take our word for it!!!!
When magazines, etc climb into a Griffith and take it out for a spin, they are immediately intimidated by the somewhat nervous feeling of the car.
They then translate that into a bad handling characteristic of the car. Not true.
Its simple. They just don't know how to drive the thing properly, and therefore don't get the most out of its actually very good handling.
If they actually spent some quality time in the car, they would learn how to explore its potential and how much fun it is doing just that.
They then translate that into a bad handling characteristic of the car. Not true.
Its simple. They just don't know how to drive the thing properly, and therefore don't get the most out of its actually very good handling.
If they actually spent some quality time in the car, they would learn how to explore its potential and how much fun it is doing just that.
I think it comes down to how you like your cars set up.
The Griff is a point and squirt car, having massive straight line speed, careful around the corner 'cos if you use your right foot too much you will end up facing the other way, and then fast out of the corner.
I personally found my Griff twitchy and gave very little warning of total impending doom when you did step over the mark. Perhaps I'm just not a good enough driver?
The one thing I would suggest in the Griff's defense, is that it is *so* fast in a straight line that you often think you're doing pedestrian speeds around a corner when in actual fact you're leaving everything else for dead and a cursory glance at the speedo gives you a bit of a suprise!
The Griff is a point and squirt car, having massive straight line speed, careful around the corner 'cos if you use your right foot too much you will end up facing the other way, and then fast out of the corner.
I personally found my Griff twitchy and gave very little warning of total impending doom when you did step over the mark. Perhaps I'm just not a good enough driver?
The one thing I would suggest in the Griff's defense, is that it is *so* fast in a straight line that you often think you're doing pedestrian speeds around a corner when in actual fact you're leaving everything else for dead and a cursory glance at the speedo gives you a bit of a suprise!
It's a skilled pilot who can jump straight inot a Griff/Chim and take it by the scruff of the neck without stuffing it through the nearest hedge.
You've got a very light car, with substantial power, and torque (most of which is avaialble from under 2000 rpm).
When you couple this to high entry speeds to corners, as well as the car's ability to spin it's wheels, you can see why it demands respect, particularly in the wet.
However, given the correct circumstances - a good clear road, or better still a nice, smooth, race track - and suddenly it all stacks up.
Ensure brain is engaged before you turn the ignition!
You've got a very light car, with substantial power, and torque (most of which is avaialble from under 2000 rpm).
When you couple this to high entry speeds to corners, as well as the car's ability to spin it's wheels, you can see why it demands respect, particularly in the wet.
However, given the correct circumstances - a good clear road, or better still a nice, smooth, race track - and suddenly it all stacks up.
Ensure brain is engaged before you turn the ignition!
In my experience the Griff just grips and grips in the dry, but doesn't give you a whole load of warning when it's about to let go. The signs are definitely there - the steering starts to lighten and you can feel the back end transition into roll-oversteer - you just have to be very fast to catch it!
Having said that, it's important not to confuse handling with grip. Even though the Griff doesn't have the unreal grip of a 4x4 rally clone it does have what I would call excellent handling, in that the car is very responsive to the driver's inputs, and will reward the correct driving style.
Pete
Having said that, it's important not to confuse handling with grip. Even though the Griff doesn't have the unreal grip of a 4x4 rally clone it does have what I would call excellent handling, in that the car is very responsive to the driver's inputs, and will reward the correct driving style.
Pete
quote:
When reading Autocars'excellent article on buying a second hand Griffith, it occured to me that once again whilst raving about the straight line performance of the TVR, it was less complimentary on its handling -something along the lines of a decent hot hatch being able to see it off around corners. What is the general concensus on this topic - is the Griffith (or any TVR for that matter) really a poor handling car? I understand that the TVR has a race bred chassis developed from the Tuscan race cars, so when the handling is criticised is this in comparison with other performance cars; Porsches, Lotuses etc or would a modern Eurobox really be capable of outhandling the gorgeous griff?
In the dry, a well set up rear wheel drive will give better traction and handling than the equivalent fwd car. Accelerating through a corner, the understeer caused by the rearward weight transfer counteracts the oversteer caused by driving the rear wheels and the car stays nice and neutral right up to the limit of grip. The problem is that once you cross that limit, a rwd car is inherently unstable. A fwd won't produce as much grip or corner as fast on the limit, but even if you exceed the limit of grip the car is inherently stable.
TVRs have an optimum 50/50 weight distribution and excellent geometry and wheel control. The 'problem' is they have so much power it is all too easy to unsettle the car and start it sliding, at which point it all becomes a bit unstable and frightening if you're used to fwd cars that sort themselves out when you push them too hard. But once you get into the rwd mindset and are prepared to balance the car on the limit, you'll find the handling is very consistent and predictable and really does reward good driving.
Agree with Pete, lovely in dry, really good fun handling...nice blup,blup,blup engine note...
When i spun mine (twice-not on road) both times it just went, first time i applied opposite lock and kept the throttle balanced - and it just went totally the other way, twice as fast without warning.
I think it is the low weight, very short wheelbase and high torque which are the culprits! The Cerb is less snappy i guess coz' its heavier, lwb and has a bit less torque and lighter flywheel.
These comments about faster in a hatchback are always banded about, and are probably true (against almost any supercar) on a really tight, really twisty road where you cant get the throttle even a third open...
Bennno
When i spun mine (twice-not on road) both times it just went, first time i applied opposite lock and kept the throttle balanced - and it just went totally the other way, twice as fast without warning.
I think it is the low weight, very short wheelbase and high torque which are the culprits! The Cerb is less snappy i guess coz' its heavier, lwb and has a bit less torque and lighter flywheel.
These comments about faster in a hatchback are always banded about, and are probably true (against almost any supercar) on a really tight, really twisty road where you cant get the throttle even a third open...
Bennno
quote:
These comments about faster in a hatchback are always banded about, and are probably true (against almost any supercar) on a really tight, really twisty road where you cant get the throttle even a third open...
Bennno
Was it not in Evo or autocar recently where they put a 106 against a tamora to prove/disprove this? The TVR utterly trounced the hot hatch.
I'm finding the griff OK to handle on the power, I'm getting a bit of axle tramp when easing on the edge of traction - not sure whether this is normal?
My problem is stopping the b*gger! Anything other than a dead straight line and the griff feels like it's about to wrap itself around your neck... not exactly filling me with confidence..
I've just found that the front suspension bushes need replacing (thx Leadfoot, you were bang on) - could this be all of the problem? Or is this normal and I just have to get used to it?
My problem is stopping the b*gger! Anything other than a dead straight line and the griff feels like it's about to wrap itself around your neck... not exactly filling me with confidence..
I've just found that the front suspension bushes need replacing (thx Leadfoot, you were bang on) - could this be all of the problem? Or is this normal and I just have to get used to it?
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Anything other than a dead straight line and the griff feels like it's about to wrap itself around your neck...
Yes, very true. I was fortunate enough to have a track day at Bentwaters in my Griff, where I was able to have the rear wheels overtake me several times braking into the chicane. Good fun, but was glad to have the extended run off.
Braking into that corner was a tricky affair (2000 layout) and I found that the Griff had to be in a dead straight line with all the weight settled down. Any sniff of lateral movement under heavy braking and you were risking an impromptue roundabout manouevre.
quote:
Was it not in Evo or autocar recently where they put a 106 against a tamora to prove/disprove this? The TVR utterly trounced the hot hatch.
Agreed but make the roads very twisty and change the lightweight 106 to a Civic Type R, Clio 172 or Audi S3 and I think it would be hard to go much quicker in any supercar, well perhaps baring a 996 Turbo (4wd).
As below though Griff is good handling car, so what if an impreza can vaguely keep up through the twisties - my mates Impreza 22b did not know which way my Griff had gone when we got to some sweepers and a bit of straight.
Bennno
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Yes, very true. I was fortunate enough to have a track day at Bentwaters in my Griff, where I was able to have the rear wheels overtake me several times braking into the chicane. Good fun, but was glad to have the extended run off.
I think this is one area where TVR let themselves down. They put too much rear brake bias for my liking. Combine that with a huge dollop of engine braking and transient unweighting of the back wheels as the rear of the car lifts and it's a recipe for trouble. Most of the offs I've seen at track days have been from people losing it under braking.
I was under the impression that engine braking is a no-no with the griff, though I seem to do it instinctively because that's how I was taught to throw by bikes around. 
My presumption is that a vehicles handling is mostly determined by the confidence and skill of the pilot (trabant racing?).
Or should I keep quiet 'till I know better?
My presumption is that a vehicles handling is mostly determined by the confidence and skill of the pilot (trabant racing?).
Or should I keep quiet 'till I know better?
quote:
I've just found that the front suspension bushes need replacing (thx Leadfoot, you were bang on) - could this be all of the problem? Or is this normal and I just have to get used to it?
Get those bushes done M8 & you'll find it much more stable (you are having poly bushes fited BTW aren't you.....).
At the mo' with your knackered ones, the wishbones can move fore & aft - which will affect the toe in/out of the front wheels & make the car wander around (you might notice it pull to one side as you accelerate & then the other as you back off?).
Even after they're done it's still a no-no to brake whilst turning in
. See my profile pic for an illustration! If you want better brakes, a set up like mine (4 pot callipers/285mm grooved & drilled discs) can be had for 600 quid or so.
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