Future Secondhand Market for Cerbera/Tuscan/Tamora
Discussion
The impending demise of the Chimaera in my opinion brings to an end the era of "affordable" secondhand TVRs for the common man ( and woman!!!), the reason for my logic behind this is as follows (but please correct me if I am wrong) : The TVR wedges, S series, Griffith and Chimaera whilst not within the reach of most people when new are now well within a lot of peoples budget on the secondhand market, more to the point all of these cars are simple enough for the mechanically adept enthusiast to service and maintain themselves, there are also plenty of non franchised specialists catering for these models for the less practical owners. Servicing costs ( the MAIN bugbear of TVR ownership in my opinion ) are therefore a little more realistic. In say 5 years time or so when secondhand Cerberas/Tuscans and Tamoras have come into the affordable price range, who is going to buy them? With TVRs strange policy of secrecy with their AJP and Speed Six engines ( you would think they were developed by Area 52 ) which effectively restricts you to main dealers only ( and their extortionate servicing costs ) this means the cars will be affordable to buy but still cost a bomb to service and maintain. People who can afford £50k on a new TVR can afford £1500 and £3000 servicing/repair bills the secondhand buyer generally cannot or will not. In the future will we see an increase in non franchised specialists to repair and service these "secret" engines, if not, we will eventually see loads of dirt cheap (to buy!!) secondhand Tuscans, Cerberas and Tamoras on the market with no one to buy them.
Andy.
Andy.
If TVR are smart they will do a range of things to keep the resale value of their aging S6 cars high. If they do not they'll p*ss off the owners who buy new and therefore give them the most money. After all...how do you buy your next TVR if your current one's value has just dive-bombed?
Expect "Porsche-like" deals. e.g. Boxster 2.5 servicing now has reduced rates at OPCs. I'll bet older S6 TVRs will have a similar scheme in a few years.
Perhaps technical details will be released to specialists under some scheme. ex-Main Dealer staff may form specialists.
I don't think the future will be all that bleak frankly. But we may well find these S6/AJP cars aren't daily runners once their 6-8 years old... ?
Expect "Porsche-like" deals. e.g. Boxster 2.5 servicing now has reduced rates at OPCs. I'll bet older S6 TVRs will have a similar scheme in a few years.
Perhaps technical details will be released to specialists under some scheme. ex-Main Dealer staff may form specialists.
I don't think the future will be all that bleak frankly. But we may well find these S6/AJP cars aren't daily runners once their 6-8 years old... ?
quote:
Expect "Porsche-like" deals. e.g. Boxster 2.5 servicing now has reduced rates at OPCs. I'll bet older S6 TVRs will have a similar scheme in a few years.
Guy across the street from me was offered 2k less than the price he paid when he part-exed his boxter for a new 911, and the boxter is two years old.. How I would like to see anywhere near that sorta offer price from TVR.
quote:
Guy across the street from me was offered 2k less than the price he paid when he part-exed his boxter for a new 911, and the boxter is two years old.. How I would like to see anywhere near that sorta offer price from TVR.
Errr. Much as I would like to believe I'll be offered a trade-in that good for MY Boxster - I don't. That particular deal might do that well as the margin on the new 911 gives the dealer a lot to play with. When I trade in mine for a new Boxster the upgrade fee won't be 2K that's for sure....
TVR are starting a scheme of low rate loans for new cars, which will maintain the second hand value. It is, I suppose, a way of controlling the second hand market, and trying to turn back the clock a couple of years, when TVR's were protected by dealers from the cold winds of economic car-buying reality.
As for servicing, I think it is applling the way dealers charge for servicing. One would expect the servicing costs to be roughly in line with the value of the cars, but £600-£1000 for a routine service, with extra for simply adjusting valve clearances? I do not see how these prices can be justified. This is Ferrari servicing costs - labour at £90 per hour etc.
I am, after my recent visit to Colin Blower motorsport, seriously considering using them to service my Tamora from new. They are incredibly conscientious, and several people I spoke to said how diligent they were.
Here's a question - in the small world of TVR, do people think servicing by a recognised independent/non-franchised outfit seriously affects second hand value? The normal rules of the mass-motor industry don't apply to specialist vehicles, but we are led to believe that they do, to allow dealers to charge such extortionate prices... Thoughts, anyone?
As for servicing, I think it is applling the way dealers charge for servicing. One would expect the servicing costs to be roughly in line with the value of the cars, but £600-£1000 for a routine service, with extra for simply adjusting valve clearances? I do not see how these prices can be justified. This is Ferrari servicing costs - labour at £90 per hour etc.
I am, after my recent visit to Colin Blower motorsport, seriously considering using them to service my Tamora from new. They are incredibly conscientious, and several people I spoke to said how diligent they were.
Here's a question - in the small world of TVR, do people think servicing by a recognised independent/non-franchised outfit seriously affects second hand value? The normal rules of the mass-motor industry don't apply to specialist vehicles, but we are led to believe that they do, to allow dealers to charge such extortionate prices... Thoughts, anyone?
supply and demand... i'm sure there will be sufficient demand (there are quite a few ajp cars out there now) for independents either from tuscan race teams or ex main dealer guys to start making inroads. it's already happening eg. joolz, fernhurst, peninsula all of whom have excellent reputations hereabouts. we just need to support them... i have a 2 year old cerbie what's the point of worrying about a main dealer fsh when it's already lost 50% of its value... better to go the fernies / joolz route. this is a virtuous circle, will maintain 2nd hand values, and enable tvr to sell more new ones!
Nubbin,
The only real downside that I can see with regards to stepping outside the dealer network for servicing is that when the vehicle comes up for sale the class of buyer that has the cash, wants a TVR but doesnt want the hassle is, I would have thought, going to shy away from vehicles without a FTVRSH. Now, we as educated TVR owners know that this is not neccesarily the case because there are independants that I have never heard a bad word spoken about and dealers that I wouldnt take my car to in a 100 years.
It comes down to the information available to the buyer at the time of sale I think. If the fella/lass has done their homework, been on pistonheads, talked to people who know there stuff then fine, obviously the main dealer history is a moot point. There does however seem to be an increasing number of cash rich numpties who just want a TVR because they use Chromaflare paint and as little stress as possible. Then, saying that, I personally wouldnt want to sell my car to one of those people anyway!
Matt.
The only real downside that I can see with regards to stepping outside the dealer network for servicing is that when the vehicle comes up for sale the class of buyer that has the cash, wants a TVR but doesnt want the hassle is, I would have thought, going to shy away from vehicles without a FTVRSH. Now, we as educated TVR owners know that this is not neccesarily the case because there are independants that I have never heard a bad word spoken about and dealers that I wouldnt take my car to in a 100 years.
It comes down to the information available to the buyer at the time of sale I think. If the fella/lass has done their homework, been on pistonheads, talked to people who know there stuff then fine, obviously the main dealer history is a moot point. There does however seem to be an increasing number of cash rich numpties who just want a TVR because they use Chromaflare paint and as little stress as possible. Then, saying that, I personally wouldnt want to sell my car to one of those people anyway!
Matt.
quote:
all of these cars are simple enough for the mechanically adept enthusiast to service and maintain themselves
Are the AJP8 and the speed six such mind-boggling pieces of machinery?
I don't understand why there aren't more AJP engines' specialists around, with so many Cerberas on the road.
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With TVRs strange policy of secrecy with their AJP and Speed Six engines ( you would think they were developed by Area 52 ) which effectively restricts you to main dealers only
What do you mean with "restrict"? Do you mean owners are afraid of losing their warranty when getting their cars inspected by non-TVR dealers?
What about the cars not covered by warranty anymore?
quote:
In the future will we see an increase in non franchised specialists to repair and service these "secret" engines, if not, we will eventually see loads of dirt cheap (to buy!!) secondhand Tuscans, Cerberas and Tamoras on the market with no one to buy them.
There WILL be non franchised specialists; I think even TVR know this, it is in their best interest to maintain the price of second hand cars and therefore the price of new cars.
quote:
Here's a question - in the small world of TVR, do people think servicing by a recognised independent/non-franchised outfit seriously affects second hand value? The normal rules of the mass-motor industry don't apply to specialist vehicles, but we are led to believe that they do, to allow dealers to charge such extortionate prices... Thoughts, anyone?
Nubbin,
I don't think it makes a difference, all TVR owners I've discussed this with are at least as happy with a recognised specialist history. As for servicing on newer models, most of the specialists are already supporting AJP and S6 engines, mine was offering advice over the phone to the USA on Cerbera issues when I was there last year.
Cheers,
JSG.
Thom
you are missing a few basic points here, the factory will not supply component parts for the AJP engines.
If it has a problem, even some oil leaks, then it needs to be removed from the car, put in a pallet and returned to the factory!
That is what i think is meant by 'restricting' specialists in the earlier e-mails!
Bennno
you are missing a few basic points here, the factory will not supply component parts for the AJP engines.
If it has a problem, even some oil leaks, then it needs to be removed from the car, put in a pallet and returned to the factory!
That is what i think is meant by 'restricting' specialists in the earlier e-mails!
Bennno
quote:
There is of course the warranty issue to consider - not to be taken lightly with TVR....
Good point - I think though that the original comments were aimed at these cars when they are older (ie out of warranty).
I think the main issues concerning TVR owners are 'skilled' labour and hourly rates. Whilst the main recognised specialists are not as cheap as the local garage, they offer the skill and knowledge at a reduced hourly rate compared to the main dealer and in some cases at least are able to stamp the service record and send the ticket off to the factory.
I'm fairly certain that my local specialist also gets parts deliveries from the factory even for the AJP engines.
Cheers,
JSG.
Sorry for that completely stupid question.
But somebody mentioned to inplant a Chim or Griff V8
into a Cerbera.
Has anybody done or seen that?
Asking that, because love the Cerbie, but can`t imagine maintaining an AJP/Speed 6 engine here, this engine even doesn`t has permission over here.
Only a thought for preventing a big box going between UK and Europe for all too often.
But somebody mentioned to inplant a Chim or Griff V8
into a Cerbera.
Has anybody done or seen that?
Asking that, because love the Cerbie, but can`t imagine maintaining an AJP/Speed 6 engine here, this engine even doesn`t has permission over here.
Only a thought for preventing a big box going between UK and Europe for all too often.
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