Grief Update - Engine Rebuild

[Matthew Poxon]

Afternoon Gents,

Following on from my previous thread: https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

I am in the process of having my engine rebuilt. One of the reasons I have delayed the rebuild is to allow me to save up some funds to start the build. I essentially had two choices spend around 4-5k on an a engine refresh and end up with the same as what I had before and the car back on the road for Summer 2019 or build an improved version of what I have now to my preferred specification at the expense of having the car off the road until 2020 while I save up and source parts etc.

Not being able to do something standard like a normal human being I decided for the 'go big or go home' approach. I also fancy the challenge of doing something I bit different as I feel I have achieved a good result out of the existing engine gradually tuning up to 324BHP and 348ft/lb out of a stock internal TVR 500 engine running the original ECU over a period of 10 years. Time for the next chapter.

The idea of an SC or Turbo car is certainly appealing from a performance point of view, however my original 500 engine was already very quick and I do not believe i have the necessary driving skill for much more power. For me I love the naturally aspirated engine in my TVR and I want to keep the car naturally aspirated.

My favourite Rover V8 engine is the 4.5 engine TVR built for the original Tuscan Challenge Racecars. I know this is not a proposition for a road car as it runs carbs and a very high lift cam, but this engine will be my inspiration. Looking at other owners cars which I have been impressed with from the trackday scene there is the 5.5 in Peter's Chimaera, the 5.2 in Ian Rose's Griffith and the 5.0 engine in Andy Race's Monster Griff.

The engine I have decided to build is a road going Rover V8 inspired by the TVR Tuscan Challenge V8 using modern components and using tried and tested ideas from the three owners listed above. A big thanks to Peter, Ian and especially Precat who have very kind offering honest advice based on their experiences so I will hopefully avoid some of the pitfalls of doing something a bit different.

This is the outline specification I have decided upon:

• 5.298cc engine capacity (bore out existing block to 96mm with a 91.5mm crankshaft, top hat liner block)
• Lightweight I beam forged connecting rods
• Lightweight forged pistons
• Downdraft Jenvey throttle bodies with ITG filters
• Roller Rockers
• TVR cast rocker covers
• MBE 9a9 ECU - dual lambdas and knock sensors
• Hydraulic Camshaft (H324)
• Billet flywheel
• ARP bolts
• MSD Ignition system
• Baffled sump with additional oil capacity
• Oil cooler
• Existing TVR 500 heads
• Existing Clive Ford exhaust manifolds

After speaking with a number of suppliers I decided to use Dom Trickett of Power's Performance for the engine build. I have an existing good relationship with Dom, I trust him to do a good job and he is the only one I spoke to who would entertain offering a 5 year warranty on the build. Jody at Python Racing will be completing all the work which falls outside of the engine rebuild and ECU as there is quite a bit of work required converting to throttle bodies and the various "while the engine is out' jobs.

I will keep this thread up to date with progress.

Matthew

[Matthew Poxon]

The first challenge... getting a Jenvey downdraft ITB kit to fit under the bonnet of a TVR Griffith. I have seen the crossover system fitted but never a downdraft withoout a cutout in the bonnet to allow the ITG filters to protrude through. The car is still primarily a road car and I would like to retain a standard look.

John Eales sells both downdraft and crossover Jenvey throttle body systems. After measuring and chatting to John he came up with a solution using a low profile multi-throttle inlet manifold which would leave enough room for the filters + a bit of room above for breathing. The full kit including, manifold, ITBs, filters, injectors, fuel rails and linkage purchased from John Eales.






Now over to Jody at Python Racing to prove the theory with the existing engine still in situ:





Great result - confirmed fitted under a TVR Griffith bonnet.

[phazed]

A thread I'll be keeping a beady eye on!

Don't make it too fast Mathew otherwise you'll be keeping up with the chims.....

Good work so far.

[Classic Chim]

Thread of the year already. That’s a dream motor.

Not trying to teach experts to suck eggs but have you thought about keeping the air intake pipe in place to feed nice cold air onto those filters. Engine temps might be high when it’s all hot would worry me but then I’m a worrier.
Fortune favours the brave and you easily have the driving ability

[Matthew Poxon]

Thanks gents. It will be interesting journey I am sure.

I wouldn’t worry Peter, there is very little chance it will be anywhere near the power of your 400BHP monster. It will be smaller capacity, milder cam and the 500 heads are not in the same league as your V8D stage 4s.

Alun I have the vented bonnet now so I am hoping that will suffice. I know speaking to Ian Rose he does not have any issues with his setup as his takes most of its air through the mesh infront of the windsreen. I will however ask Dom to dyno the car with the bonnet on to make sure there are no issues as I do have similar concerns.

[QBee]

That looks excellent and well thought through, Matthew.
I too will be willing it on to a successful conclusion.

[Franksy]

Mmm, downdraft Jenvey throttle bodies + ITG filters or keep my ACT triple plenum? Just wondering. I'll follow with interest (and envy).

[Classic Chim]

Vents, thats perfect I’d have thought. Ian’s is a beast and this looks similar. I too am a great admirer of the 4.5 race engines and the proper rocker covers.

Can’t wait to see and hear it run, Ive just bored a friend half asleep showing him this and explaining it all

It’s the dream right there.
Congratulations on such good decision making.
This weekend has just about blown my head,, all this fun and I’m sitting at home,,, lol.
Feeling a bit inspired now as with a bit of patience you can achieve an awful lot.

I’ll follow this like a hawk. Do keep us updated.

Ps, i’d really like a look at the inlet manifold port arrangement without the throttle bodies, just the shaping and porting as each runner hits the heads. No worries if you haven’t got a pic, very very interesting stuff.

Edited by Classic Chim on Monday 27th May 20:49

[Matthew Poxon]

Classic Chim said:

Ps, i’d really like a look at the inlet manifold port arrangement without the throttle bodies, just the shaping and porting as each runner hits the heads. No worries if you haven’t got a pic, very very interesting stuff.

I do have a couple of pictures which may or may not show what you are after. One of the bare inlet manifold and the other showing the size difference between the low profile and standard JE inlet manifolds....





The manifolds came pre CNC ported from JE as part of the kit.

[Classic Chim]

JE what a superstar he is.
That’s some lovely kit there.
What dia are the throttle bodies Matt.

Top end power coupled with clever ignition and cc size, should still have loads of torque with even more bhp. Screamer

[RichB]

Matthew Poxon said:

Great result - confirmed fitted under a TVR Griffith bonnet.

Will you need to duct cold air to the intake filters?

[Matthew Poxon]

After speaking with Dom who is building the engine, he said he could get the pistons and rods custom made but John Eales has the parts in stock so he was happy for me to source the parts from John. My objective for the pistons and rods is to build a robust and lightweight bottom end within a sensible pricepoint. Lightweight in theory will keep the engine as free revving as possible which is often lost with high capacity RV8 engines.

I spoke to John Eales regarding my requirements for the engine and he recommended his own 6 inch I beam forged rods with inconel bolts with Omega 96mm forged pistons to match. I did look other combinations of rods and pistons including Diamond forged pistons, Arrow and Carillo rods which were all slightly lighter but considerably more expensive. I also looked at re-machined Chevy H beam rods which were great value but a fair bit heavier than the JE items.

Looking at the components on the market I felt that the JE items were very good quality and represented good value for money. John assured me these components will be good for up to 7.5k RPM, not that I will testing out that theory.

[Matthew Poxon]

Classic Chim said:

JE what a superstar he is.
That’s some lovely kit there.
What dia are the throttle bodies Matt.

Top end power coupled with clever ignition and cc size, should still have loads of torque with even more bhp. Screamer

48mm Alun, i think that is the same diameter as Ian's

[Matthew Poxon]

RichB said:

Will you need to duct cold air to the intake filters?

Hello Richard, how are you? How are your stunning Aston and Griff doing?

I am hoping that the combination of the mesh under the windscreen and the vented bonnet I have fitted will be sufficient without the need for additional ducting. I will of course ask Dom to test this theory by completing a dyno run with the bonnet shut to see if there are any adverse affects. I suspect I am quite far from that stage at this point in time.

[Classic Chim]

I like the way those pistons have side skirts on the two sides they can rock in the bores.
Mightily impressive
I sometimes look at Performance and Ecu tuners videos and online lessons,
Those pistons or that style are used a lot so it seems, some seriously powerful motors etc
Bodes well I’d say, isn’t JE the guy behind a lot of the early powerful builds and worked with Rover on development. There’s not much he does’nt know or tried sort of thing?

There is just something very special and of course historic about throttle bodies or 8 individual intakes.
What a great project.

Looking at the hazy steel rule those ports are at least 50 mm dia !
Bloody magic

[Classic Chim]

Matthew Poxon said:

48mm Alun, i think that is the same diameter as Ian's

Mate,,,, it’s just fantastic.
I need to calm down
But knock sensors,,,,,, bees knees
So they must work then, if Jason uses them.
I’ve read a little on the subject and the odd warning some engines make so much noise it’s hard to detect actual knock but Jay knows how far to push it and stay safe upto the limiter by ear I reckon so you’ll be quids in

So I expect the fuelling and Ignition can still be controlled by the Ecu and MAP sensor etc so still using lambda probes.
The ignition and fuelling is virtually the same set up in essence by the look of it but with accurate control of each air intake. Equal air, seriously better stuff! L/H bank is known to get less air with plenum although possibly marginal but nice to know all of the engine will get all of the air

I dare not ask how much but who cares if it’s bullet proof and last years,,,,,,,,, priceless.
I’ll look on JE site and come down to Earth pretty quick but this is probably what I need to beat Jacko down the line

Edited by Classic Chim on Monday 27th May 23:12

[Matthew Poxon]

Classic Chim said:

isn’t JE the guy behind a lot of the early powerful builds and worked with Rover on development. There’s not much he does’nt know or tried sort of thing?

It is indeed John Eales has been around since the late 1960s building and tuning Rover V8 engines so there is not much he does not know.

Both JE and TVR Power (NCK) pushed the boundaries of the Rover V8 back in the day. I believe JE was the first to build a 4.5 and fit a carb per cylinder and NCK were the first to make 5.0 engine. Seeing as Dom owns TVR Power (NCK) I have arguably the two companies who know the most about tuning Rover V8s involved in the project.... and of course the wizard who is Jason at Power to set it all up on MBE. Let’s hope it works out - lol

Once this is all done I am hoping to do a write up for the club magazine, as part of that I was planning on if they are up for it speaking to John Eales and Dom Trickett to get the full back story on the two companies. Just from speaking to them in passing it is fascinating and impressive stuff what they have achieved.

[Classic Chim]

Matthew Poxon said:

It is indeed John Eales has been around since the late 1960s building and tuning Rover V8 engines so there is not much he does not know.

Both JE and TVR Power (NCK) pushed the boundaries of the Rover V8 back in the day. I believe JE was the first to build a 4.5 and fit a carb per cylinder and NCK were the first to make 5.0 engine. Seeing as Dom owns TVR Power (NCK) I have arguably the two companies who know the most about tuning Rover V8s involved in the project.... and of course the wizard who is Jason at Power to set it all up on MBE. Let’s hope it works out - lol

Once this is all done I am hoping to do a write up for the club magazine, as part of that I was planning on if they are up for it speaking to John Eales and Dom Trickett to get the full back story on the two companies. Just from speaking to them in passing it is fascinating and impressive stuff what they have achieved.

I couldn’t agree more. It’s a very interesting story of the history of our engines and how they got there.
I found it fascinating talking to Dom, he clearly respects John Eales, I can see why now.

[citizen smith]

Classic Chim said:

Matthew Poxon said:

It is indeed John Eales has been around since the late 1960s building and tuning Rover V8 engines so there is not much he does not know.

Both JE and TVR Power (NCK) pushed the boundaries of the Rover V8 back in the day. I believe JE was the first to build a 4.5 and fit a carb per cylinder and NCK were the first to make 5.0 engine. Seeing as Dom owns TVR Power (NCK) I have arguably the two companies who know the most about tuning Rover V8s involved in the project.... and of course the wizard who is Jason at Power to set it all up on MBE. Let’s hope it works out - lol

Once this is all done I am hoping to do a write up for the club magazine, as part of that I was planning on if they are up for it speaking to John Eales and Dom Trickett to get the full back story on the two companies. Just from speaking to them in passing it is fascinating and impressive stuff what they have achieved.

I couldn’t agree more. It’s a very interesting story of the history of our engines and how they got there.
I found it fascinating talking to Dom, he clearly respects John Eales, I can see why now.

If memory serves me well John Eales developed engines for Range Rover's Paris Dakar Cars, Plus BL's Special Tuning Division for Rover SD1 and TR7V8 Rally Cars plus lots more - the man is a legend for building outstanding Engines that run on all sorts of weird fuels.

[900T-R]

How about an airbox on top of the throttle bodies, with an air intake on the passenger side like the OE and ACT plenums... I saw a set up like that on an SD1 racer once, the airbox can be fairly low profile with trumpets/flares inside... I would wager that you'd suffer from heat soak in traffic with the air filters in the engine bay, racers don't tend to sit in traffic for long