That old shock absorber/springs chestnut
Discussion
I know this one gets banded about from time to time, but I reckon it's worth canvassing new opinions occasionally...
My Griffith is due a new set of shocks (and maybe springs).
Steve's bible reckons the standard shocks are more than up to the job (got to put some weight to that argument).
But then I've heard and read of people who have swapped theirs for something different.
What works well (without simply buying the most expensive available)?
Has anyone done the job themselves?
Is it worth changing the bushes?
Has anyone played with the ride-height?
It would be brilliant to gather opinions on this one.
My Griffith is due a new set of shocks (and maybe springs).
Steve's bible reckons the standard shocks are more than up to the job (got to put some weight to that argument).
But then I've heard and read of people who have swapped theirs for something different.
What works well (without simply buying the most expensive available)?
Has anyone done the job themselves?
Is it worth changing the bushes?
Has anyone played with the ride-height?
It would be brilliant to gather opinions on this one.
First... you can't simply say I want to improve my suspension what's the magic formula?
How much do you want to spend? That will definitely restrict your choice. It is easy to blow 1-2 grand on this!
What type of driving do you do? You may want a track day set up or or that is comfortable on the road?
How much are you willing to sacrifice ride height/quality? Every suspension mod/change involves some form of compromise.
Have you checked that the rest of the suspension is A1. Worn bushes and joints can make a suspension feel pretty bad.
Steve
How much do you want to spend? That will definitely restrict your choice. It is easy to blow 1-2 grand on this!
What type of driving do you do? You may want a track day set up or or that is comfortable on the road?
How much are you willing to sacrifice ride height/quality? Every suspension mod/change involves some form of compromise.
Have you checked that the rest of the suspension is A1. Worn bushes and joints can make a suspension feel pretty bad.
Steve
OK what's the magic formula?
I've about a grand to spend,I've just replaced all the suspension bushes (std rubber),hard poly on the anti-roll bars.I do track days and the car is not my daily driver so comfort and ground clearance are not a priority,however I don't want it to be undrivable on the road .OK I know there's no magic,it's horses for courses I'd love to put Ohlins alround(the best dampers I've ever used on bikes)but they're out of my price range, so any help in the right direction would be most welcome.
I have being advised to speak to Guy Evans at Nitron,so the more information I have the easier it will be to ask the right questions and understand the answers,eg seperate bump and rebound damping is it worth extra or just more to get wrong when setting up?
BTW the car is a'95 Griff 500 with 30K on the original springs and dampers.
I've about a grand to spend,I've just replaced all the suspension bushes (std rubber),hard poly on the anti-roll bars.I do track days and the car is not my daily driver so comfort and ground clearance are not a priority,however I don't want it to be undrivable on the road .OK I know there's no magic,it's horses for courses I'd love to put Ohlins alround(the best dampers I've ever used on bikes)but they're out of my price range, so any help in the right direction would be most welcome.
I have being advised to speak to Guy Evans at Nitron,so the more information I have the easier it will be to ask the right questions and understand the answers,eg seperate bump and rebound damping is it worth extra or just more to get wrong when setting up?
BTW the car is a'95 Griff 500 with 30K on the original springs and dampers.
very general rules I've found are:
guy evans is great, speak to him.
ledas are too soft in bump but don't have enough rebound to control hard springs .. what's going on there then?
avos are too harsh in bump for light cars (although recent cerbie tests seems to suggest they've changed to softer bump valving .. )
Nitrons are half the price they should be given the spec.
you've no need to spend more than 1k pounds.
suspension is the best place to spend your money.
do it sooner rather than later.!!
guy evans is great, speak to him.
ledas are too soft in bump but don't have enough rebound to control hard springs .. what's going on there then?
avos are too harsh in bump for light cars (although recent cerbie tests seems to suggest they've changed to softer bump valving .. )
Nitrons are half the price they should be given the spec.
you've no need to spend more than 1k pounds.
suspension is the best place to spend your money.
do it sooner rather than later.!!
Interesting...
Until Maneks Leda's broke, Nitrons were the only ones that I have seen fail on TVRs: quite a few Tasmins, and a Griff twice. Needless to say that is one reason why I steered clear of them on the 520 although the plan was to use them. They are impressive though.
If you lower the car you will need to control the car movement to prevent the wheel arches fouling. That means harder springing front and rear. Be careful about the spring design as you can end up running on the bump stops or unloading the spring completely, neither of which are good. Helper springs are the way forward here but they are expensive. About 30-40 a wheel.
Bear in mind that suspension mods will make the car's basic handing better or worse. It can induce more understeer or oversteer and so you really do need to establish what is wrong with the car: does it wallow excessively, is it understeering or oversteering? Got any pictures of the car going through a corner hard - that will tell you an awful lot and where the problems are.
Then go and talk. Be prepared for more wear on the other components though.
Steve
Until Maneks Leda's broke, Nitrons were the only ones that I have seen fail on TVRs: quite a few Tasmins, and a Griff twice. Needless to say that is one reason why I steered clear of them on the 520 although the plan was to use them. They are impressive though.
If you lower the car you will need to control the car movement to prevent the wheel arches fouling. That means harder springing front and rear. Be careful about the spring design as you can end up running on the bump stops or unloading the spring completely, neither of which are good. Helper springs are the way forward here but they are expensive. About 30-40 a wheel.
Bear in mind that suspension mods will make the car's basic handing better or worse. It can induce more understeer or oversteer and so you really do need to establish what is wrong with the car: does it wallow excessively, is it understeering or oversteering? Got any pictures of the car going through a corner hard - that will tell you an awful lot and where the problems are.
Then go and talk. Be prepared for more wear on the other components though.
Steve
Steve, you really know your stuff. Thank you.
I guess I am in the same boat as Budd. The car is only really driven for fun. Trackdays and limited road use is the plan.
What do I want from the car? I think the most important improvement would to be to reduce the way the back feels like it's trying to wander a little if I brake hard. The car is also susceptible to power changes mid-corner (makes the car feel edgey, if that makes sense).
Budget wise, I would like to pay 500 - 800, although a compelling argument to overspend (and a thick ear from the new wife) may win. I would like to do the work myself and I have a mechanical enough mind to do these things.
I appreciate the feedback, guys.
I guess I am in the same boat as Budd. The car is only really driven for fun. Trackdays and limited road use is the plan.
What do I want from the car? I think the most important improvement would to be to reduce the way the back feels like it's trying to wander a little if I brake hard. The car is also susceptible to power changes mid-corner (makes the car feel edgey, if that makes sense).
Budget wise, I would like to pay 500 - 800, although a compelling argument to overspend (and a thick ear from the new wife) may win. I would like to do the work myself and I have a mechanical enough mind to do these things.
I appreciate the feedback, guys.
I changed the suspension on my 95 Griff for Nitrons back in April after researching 
the subject quite a lot.
My choices were:
1/ Standard replacement Bilsteins. I drove a newer car & whilst a lot better than my worn out (shox) one, it wasn't brilliant.
2/ Gaz. As sold by Tower View & as used by Steve Heath (shpub)on his "wedge from hell". Nobody else appears to have used them on a Griff - by which I mean no +/-ve comments have been posted here or on the email list that I could find - so decided against.
3/ Leda. Good reputation but same as above. subsequently found out that Manek had some & was happy with them (this is before he had one break
!).
4/ Ohlins. Would love to but tooooo expensive.
5/ Koni. Gerjo has them & raved about it, but too expensive (I presumed - didn't check) again.
6/ AVO. Lots of -ve comments about them on Griffs.
7/ Nitron. Lots of +ve comments from a fairly large number of users. Spoke to them & was impressed with what I heard. Also spoke to Peninsula (who ended up fitting them for me - see below) & liked what I heard from them too.
The Nitrons improve the back end in the air on the brakes feeling to a certain extent, but not completely (I feel a lot of this is 'cos the car has a fairly short wheelbase which doesn't help directional stability to start with). They have adjustable damping - compression & rebound adjust together on one knob - which I increase from my road settings to minimise front end dive on the brakes on track days & also to reduce body roll.
One of my concerns againt the Nitrons was that as they are adjustable for damping & ride height, I would be endlessly fidling with them instead of driving the car. This nearly made me go for standard shox. Pete Humphfries (IIRC) comented that adjustable shox would be a good bet as I use the car on the track - he was right, my road settings are too soft for the track & vice versa.
Ride height: Initially tha car was set up too low, I guess appx 2" lower than standard. Handling was great but bottoming out not so! It was decking the exhaust tail pipes, rear ARB links, exhaust cover plate etc. On one road the floorpan even touched down! The problem was so bad that I had to stay off roads that were bumpy or heavily 'crowned'. I've since taken it back up to appx 1/2" below standard & it doesn't bottom out.
Suspension bushes: I needed to replace these at the same time & went for poly ones, on the grounds of improved wishbone location & longer (hopefully) life.
Damper bushes (on the Nitrons): Nitron recommended plain bushes, Peninsula said go for rose joints. I went for plain bushes as I thought that the rose joints would wear very quickly when exposed to road dirt & that they would be too noisy on a road car (ie. transmit too much road noise).
Fitting: I started out with the intention of doing the work myself, but after costing the parts & then adding the 100 quid or so for a geometry setup afterwards it just wasn't worth the hassle.
Am I happy? Too bl**dy right, the handling has been transformed. The car turns in better, is more stable in a turn, lets go predictably & doesn't lurch around when its right on the limit as it used to. It also feels much more compliant, & has none of the crashing over bumps that was there before (this was probably the knackered bushes tho'). I should mention that my geometry is quite a bit different now, with a lot more -ve camber than before, but i can clearly feel the difference the shox make.
HTH sorry for longwindedness
the subject quite a lot. My choices were:
1/ Standard replacement Bilsteins. I drove a newer car & whilst a lot better than my worn out (shox) one, it wasn't brilliant.
2/ Gaz. As sold by Tower View & as used by Steve Heath (shpub)on his "wedge from hell". Nobody else appears to have used them on a Griff - by which I mean no +/-ve comments have been posted here or on the email list that I could find - so decided against.
3/ Leda. Good reputation but same as above. subsequently found out that Manek had some & was happy with them (this is before he had one break
!). 4/ Ohlins. Would love to but tooooo expensive.
5/ Koni. Gerjo has them & raved about it, but too expensive (I presumed - didn't check) again.
6/ AVO. Lots of -ve comments about them on Griffs.
7/ Nitron. Lots of +ve comments from a fairly large number of users. Spoke to them & was impressed with what I heard. Also spoke to Peninsula (who ended up fitting them for me - see below) & liked what I heard from them too.
The Nitrons improve the back end in the air on the brakes feeling to a certain extent, but not completely (I feel a lot of this is 'cos the car has a fairly short wheelbase which doesn't help directional stability to start with). They have adjustable damping - compression & rebound adjust together on one knob - which I increase from my road settings to minimise front end dive on the brakes on track days & also to reduce body roll.
One of my concerns againt the Nitrons was that as they are adjustable for damping & ride height, I would be endlessly fidling with them instead of driving the car. This nearly made me go for standard shox. Pete Humphfries (IIRC) comented that adjustable shox would be a good bet as I use the car on the track - he was right, my road settings are too soft for the track & vice versa.
Ride height: Initially tha car was set up too low, I guess appx 2" lower than standard. Handling was great but bottoming out not so! It was decking the exhaust tail pipes, rear ARB links, exhaust cover plate etc. On one road the floorpan even touched down! The problem was so bad that I had to stay off roads that were bumpy or heavily 'crowned'. I've since taken it back up to appx 1/2" below standard & it doesn't bottom out.
Suspension bushes: I needed to replace these at the same time & went for poly ones, on the grounds of improved wishbone location & longer (hopefully) life.
Damper bushes (on the Nitrons): Nitron recommended plain bushes, Peninsula said go for rose joints. I went for plain bushes as I thought that the rose joints would wear very quickly when exposed to road dirt & that they would be too noisy on a road car (ie. transmit too much road noise).
Fitting: I started out with the intention of doing the work myself, but after costing the parts & then adding the 100 quid or so for a geometry setup afterwards it just wasn't worth the hassle.
Am I happy? Too bl**dy right, the handling has been transformed. The car turns in better, is more stable in a turn, lets go predictably & doesn't lurch around when its right on the limit as it used to. It also feels much more compliant, & has none of the crashing over bumps that was there before (this was probably the knackered bushes tho'). I should mention that my geometry is quite a bit different now, with a lot more -ve camber than before, but i can clearly feel the difference the shox make.
HTH sorry for longwindedness
quote:
Steve, you really know your stuff. Thank you.
I guess I am in the same boat as Budd. The car is only really driven for fun. Trackdays and limited road use is the plan.
What do I want from the car? I think the most important improvement would to be to reduce the way the back feels like it's trying to wander a little if I brake hard. The car is also susceptible to power changes mid-corner (makes the car feel edgey, if that makes sense).
Budget wise, I would like to pay 500 - 800, although a compelling argument to overspend (and a thick ear from the new wife) may win. I would like to do the work myself and I have a mechanical enough mind to do these things.
I appreciate the feedback, guys.
What you have described is a combination of 4 litre GRiff handling (waits for Dave Peck to comment) coupled with potentially worn suspension bushes and/or wrong geometry settings coupled with a bit of driver input. Yes changing to a better set of shocks and springs may help but there may be a lot of other cost effective methods of addressing the problem. If the shocks are duff anyway then you'll need to replace them but this should not stop you looking at other aspects to help understand where things are going wrong.
Driver input is oft forgotten but is very very important. It can explain why one car will outhandle another as driver input can make problems where they shouldn't exist and make them worse where they do. There is then a real problem of changing the suspension to compensate when the driver is the real culprit. I know I have been there and I still don't get it right as much as I should.
Back end lightness under braking can be caused by snatching or jumping on the brakes so that the weight transfer is not used to increase the front braking force. It can be caused by braking when the car is unsettled or not in a straight line. Driver responsibility that one. Duff brakes or pads well past their sell-by date can also cause this. The rear brakes end up doing more of the work and this can cause the squirming. Squeezing the brakes rather than jumping on them will often stop the lightness and give shorter breaking distances. The problem may be a brake one rather than suspension.
I'm currently testing for Tower View a Wilwood/283 mm front disc set up which I have been quite amazed about and has dramatically improved the stability under braking. It's based on the set up I used to have on the 520 which was pretty powerful. However it took a lot to get the pads and rotors bedded in and the braking performance was not good and the car was really unstable as the rear brakes were doing far more than they should. Once bedded in so the balance moved to the front big time, the stability came back. So much so that I can trail brake in corners and do all sorts of things that you really ought not to do. If I jump on them, it is not pleasant though as things start to lock and the car goes unstable. If I squeeze them I can stand on them without locking up the fronts and I am getting close to the max I should expect from the car. SO technique is all important. The feel of how close the brakes are to locking is important. Again it goes back to technique and how the car is driven.
Upgrading the brakes so that there is more braking up front is another thing. The 4 litre cars do not have a rear anti-roll bar and this makes a big difference to rear end stability. It helps reduce understeer and body roll which I suspect are part of the reasons that the car feels edgy.
I would take the £800 and invest a little in an airfield day with some serious instruction time and ask him to evaluate whether your driving style is making the car handle badly or whether there is a real problem. Let him drive it and if it is transformed then that is a good indication that the driver needs some upgrades as well. A common problem is too much steering input. Get a friend to take a video or loads of pictures so that you can see how the car is behaving. Then look. Is the front wheel camber wrong so that the contact patch is less than ideal? May need to change the camber. When and how is the power being applied.
This is not easy and it is time consuming to get absolutely right but it is part of the challenge of developing the car. Suspension and handling can provide a huge improvement to the car's performance. Switching to the Gaz shocks on the 520 enabled me to go 10 mph faster through many corners. The problem is that then pushed the envelope a bit more and surprise surprise some more problems arose which has meant yet more work and modifications.
PS Don't forget the brakes. If you go faster, you need to stop quicker. It is a rapidly expanding spiral...
Steve
www.tvrbooks.co.uk
don't read too much into the nitrons breaking on the tasmins, rumour has it that it was down to incorrect fitting .. the top eyes which move in two planes were being bolted tight which stressed to top thread causing a fatigue failure and was nothing to do with the quality of the component which is very good.
nitrons breaking on griffs i can't comment on since I've never seen or heard of that one, but the latest NTR damper is a massive beef up in terms of quality and pure strength over the competition, the valving area is double that of the rivals, the spherical joints are now std with proper O rings for protection, they really are a great piece of kit.
IMO of course.
:-)
>> Edited by joospeed on Wednesday 31st July 11:33
nitrons breaking on griffs i can't comment on since I've never seen or heard of that one, but the latest NTR damper is a massive beef up in terms of quality and pure strength over the competition, the valving area is double that of the rivals, the spherical joints are now std with proper O rings for protection, they really are a great piece of kit.
IMO of course.
:-)
>> Edited by joospeed on Wednesday 31st July 11:33
Don't feel too qualified to add to this thread, but I was suffering from axle tramp and an element of 'wandering under braking'... on a limited budget, after discussion with David Batty, I added spax adjustable shocks @ £100 each and the car now performs much better, more positive under braking giving me confidence on the track day usuage, minimal axle tramp for the odd occasion I hoof it..
I avoided spending time fiddling the other day at Silverstone as it was just too bloody hot, and I doubt I'd acheive much anyway. I just wound them up to @ 3/4 strength and concentrated in keeping it out of the gravel!
Guess this is the poor man's route!
I avoided spending time fiddling the other day at Silverstone as it was just too bloody hot, and I doubt I'd acheive much anyway. I just wound them up to @ 3/4 strength and concentrated in keeping it out of the gravel!
Guess this is the poor man's route!
There's some good stuff coming out here.
I am not an expert driver by any means. No doubt the car would handle a whole world better with a better pair of hands on the wheel. With time I intend to learn all these things.
I think I parallel powelly in some ways. The car is great, but as I learn to drive it better, I am noticing things I would like to change. Given that the suspension does need a little TLC, I'll take the oppurtunity to experiment a bit - It would be nice to fit something caple of rudimentary adjustment.
I can see what Steve says about the 'expanding spiral.' First it's the springs, then the brakes, then... And I haven't even got alloy stalks on it yet. Luckily (ha!) I am hampered by budget, so the changes will be gradual and appreciated fully.
So the question is: For someone on that learning curve, looking towards trackdays and driving courses, what should I fit to the car and how would you guys set it up?
I am not an expert driver by any means. No doubt the car would handle a whole world better with a better pair of hands on the wheel. With time I intend to learn all these things.
I think I parallel powelly in some ways. The car is great, but as I learn to drive it better, I am noticing things I would like to change. Given that the suspension does need a little TLC, I'll take the oppurtunity to experiment a bit - It would be nice to fit something caple of rudimentary adjustment.
I can see what Steve says about the 'expanding spiral.' First it's the springs, then the brakes, then... And I haven't even got alloy stalks on it yet. Luckily (ha!) I am hampered by budget, so the changes will be gradual and appreciated fully.
So the question is: For someone on that learning curve, looking towards trackdays and driving courses, what should I fit to the car and how would you guys set it up?
Fit the best that you can afford. Contact the manufacturers/authorised dealers for whichever dampers you are interested in & ask for their setup recommendations, if they don't have any take this as a sign.
My tip is to contact some of the independant specialists to see what they recommend. Forget the main dealers as they are not allowed {by TVR) to fit non TVR bits, so you will not get the full picture from them.
Then go for the Nitrons.
My tip is to contact some of the independant specialists to see what they recommend. Forget the main dealers as they are not allowed {by TVR) to fit non TVR bits, so you will not get the full picture from them.
Then go for the Nitrons.
But £800 ain't going to get you anything near the cost a set of nitrons with springs especially if some other bits need doing.
If the shocks are knackered they will need changing and any will be a big big improvement. You will either need to save some more money or buy within your budget. Youwill need to get the geometry checked and set as well and that needs to be factored in. That would mean Leda, Gaz or Avo, Spax (although many have had problems with Spax). If the shocks are OK then start the process of working out what you want and what is wrong. It is actually fun as you have a good reason for going out on the track.
Steve
www.tvrbooks.co.uk
If the shocks are knackered they will need changing and any will be a big big improvement. You will either need to save some more money or buy within your budget. Youwill need to get the geometry checked and set as well and that needs to be factored in. That would mean Leda, Gaz or Avo, Spax (although many have had problems with Spax). If the shocks are OK then start the process of working out what you want and what is wrong. It is actually fun as you have a good reason for going out on the track.
Steve
www.tvrbooks.co.uk
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