Griff 500 PAS is it any good?
Discussion
PAS is ultra light when on the move, coupled with a relatively quick rack means that you have to concentrate 100% of the time, one sneeze and you could be in the hedgerows!!!!
It also is one more thing to go wrong, the PAS rack was the only non-service failure in 20 months of owning a Griff500, but it does make life easier at low speeds
davidy
It also is one more thing to go wrong, the PAS rack was the only non-service failure in 20 months of owning a Griff500, but it does make life easier at low speeds
davidy
1. Virtually all the Tuscan race drivers have PAS because it helps them to move the steering wheel fast enough to catch a rear wheel slide.
2. The non-PAS feel thing is a bit wussy. In reality by the time you felt that the back end is swinging round to say hello through the steering, it's too late and it's park the car somewhere to cause least damage time. The real feel of the car is through the seat hence driving through the seat of your pants.
3. PAS generally allows you to have a wider tyres at the front which helps the front grip.
4. Had both. Would never goto non-PAS because of all the above.
Steve
www.tvrbooks.co.uk
>> Edited by shpub on Monday 1st July 13:46
2. The non-PAS feel thing is a bit wussy. In reality by the time you felt that the back end is swinging round to say hello through the steering, it's too late and it's park the car somewhere to cause least damage time. The real feel of the car is through the seat hence driving through the seat of your pants.
3. PAS generally allows you to have a wider tyres at the front which helps the front grip.
4. Had both. Would never goto non-PAS because of all the above.
Steve
www.tvrbooks.co.uk
>> Edited by shpub on Monday 1st July 13:46
pretty much my sentiments steve. I'd never have a non-pas grif or chim, they are noticeably harder to catch once these short wheelbase monsters let go, especially in the wet. I don't believe the non pas gives more feel either, just more kickback and heaviness which isn't the same thing at all. there's plenty of feedback through the pas rack, plus it tends to dampen down the excessive kickback present in the non pas cars which can be VERY hard work. steering feel isn't the most important sense to driving fast anyway - if your car is set up right and the front end has plenty of bite so it'll follow your chosen line faithfully it's not an issue at all. If your car doesn't do this talk to your dealer about getting it set properly this time! IMO the non pas cars are dull, heavy and lifeless and give you blistered palms. the pas cars give a feeling of nimbleness whereas the non pas cars make the car feel much heavier than it really should be... to this 10 stone weakkling anyway ..!!
David500,
The best advice I can give is for you to try both a non PAS and a PAS Griff back to back and then you choose which you prefer as it is very much a personal choice. Check with the dealer that the tyre pressures are correct before hand though as this can make a big difference to the feel of these cars along with the geometry setup.
As you may have seen from previous replies everyone seems to have their own views on this subject with both PAS and non-PAS each having some good and bad points. If resale value is a high factor in your considerations then having PAS will help.
Regards
Mike
The best advice I can give is for you to try both a non PAS and a PAS Griff back to back and then you choose which you prefer as it is very much a personal choice. Check with the dealer that the tyre pressures are correct before hand though as this can make a big difference to the feel of these cars along with the geometry setup.
As you may have seen from previous replies everyone seems to have their own views on this subject with both PAS and non-PAS each having some good and bad points. If resale value is a high factor in your considerations then having PAS will help.
Regards
Mike
quote:
pretty much my sentiments steve. I'd never have a non-pas grif or chim, they are noticeably harder to catch once these short wheelbase monsters let go, especially in the wet. I don't believe the non pas gives more feel either, just more kickback and heaviness which isn't the same thing at all.
PAS wasn't an option on the V8S, of course, so I haven't got it. Don't miss it to be honest. At walking speeds I can easily turn the steering with one hand. The closer to the limit of grip the car gets, the less weight there is on the steering and the more apparent the self-aligning torque is. When it's drifting on the limit of grip it only takes finger tip pressure to hold it and it communicates the amount of grip perfectly.
Despite the 'seat of your pants' views that steering feedback isn't all that important, I find that the warning signs of the steering lightening up gives a very valuable indication of how close the tyre is to the limit of grip. I find I've got a conditioned reflex these days that starts an involuntary twitch to wind off the lock as the steering goes light. Lose that and you've lost one of the major driver inputs. PAS might not make it much worse, but it will never make it better.
So I still need some convincing before I will accept that PAS is better. To be honest I don't find the comparision with Tuscan racers very pursuasive. Surviving a full race in a heavy stiffly sprung race car on wide sticky slicks with massive camber is a completely different proposition from a normal road car on standard road tyres. I don't suppose many of us would last a race wrestling with a non-PAS Tuscan but I've never had a problem with tired arms in the V8S, despite long road trips, and quite long sprints and track sessions. Don't make the mistake of thinking that's because I'm particularly fit either - far from it. Still sure you need PAS?
Peter Humphries (and a green V8S)
I agree with Peter H. I've only been in a few minor powerslides but I've always found that the steering goes very light and wants to apply opposite lock by itself. The problem is that once it hits full opposite lock, it then takes a bit of effort to remove the lock as it seems to stick at full lock.
I haven't got PAS but if I was going to have a new Griff (unlikely), I wouldn't be bothered either way.
Ian A.
I haven't got PAS but if I was going to have a new Griff (unlikely), I wouldn't be bothered either way.
Ian A.
Yes Pete but your V8S is like my 520... road legal but not the same as a standard! I spent a day driving cars at a Team Central track day at Mallory and it really hit me going round Gerrards just how much easier it was driving the PAS cars than the non-PAS ones.
Anyway it is a question of personal choice so at least we Griffi/Chipaeare drivers have a choice
Steve
Anyway it is a question of personal choice so at least we Griffi/Chipaeare drivers have a choice
Steve
I have a Griff 500 with PAS and was surprised how light the steering is on the car - lighter than my Chimaera without a doubt - you do have to be careful not to oversteer - and takes time to get used to after driving another car. Personally I prefer it to non PAS - but you need to drive both to find out.
Good luck!!
Neal
S14 TVR
Good luck!!
Neal
S14 TVR
OK so PAS helps skilled drivers catch those tailslides faster. Great. But most of us are probably less skilled than Tuscan racers. And most Griffs are driven on the public roads most of the time. Not on tracks. So what? So this: most spins are apparently caused not by the initial oversteer, but by 'average' drivers overcorrecting the initial slide and fishtailing wildly into the scenery. So the biggest danger is overcorrection, agreed? Now, it is easier to overcorrect with PAS or non PAS? one-nil to non PAS!
The 'its easier to park' argument does make sense, but not for the average hairy chested Griff Man. If this is an important criteria, buy an MX-5! one - all then.
The 'one less thing to go wrong' makes a heap of sense and I think we have already heard of a case where the PAS was the only thing to go wrong on an otherwise great car.
two-one to the non-PAS brigade.
Cheers
GB
The 'its easier to park' argument does make sense, but not for the average hairy chested Griff Man. If this is an important criteria, buy an MX-5! one - all then.
The 'one less thing to go wrong' makes a heap of sense and I think we have already heard of a case where the PAS was the only thing to go wrong on an otherwise great car.
two-one to the non-PAS brigade.
Cheers
GB
As I mentioned on another thread, I drove a friend's Griff and thought it had PAS because it was so different from mine. But it didn't! Just goes to show how much difference between cars there can be.
I suppose I'm biased as mine is non-PAS; if I want electronic everything with ABS, ASC and XYZ I'd have an Impreza/Skyline etc. Like Zertec lights, it's a free* country - try both and get what you like most.
(*Actually it's not free - we all pay far too much tax - and it's not too democratic either... notice how everyting is either compulsory or illegal these days?)
I suppose I'm biased as mine is non-PAS; if I want electronic everything with ABS, ASC and XYZ I'd have an Impreza/Skyline etc. Like Zertec lights, it's a free* country - try both and get what you like most.
(*Actually it's not free - we all pay far too much tax - and it's not too democratic either... notice how everyting is either compulsory or illegal these days?)
I think this is a pretty absurd argument. If we follow the one less thing to go wrong argument, I'll come and remove the front brakes as we all drive on public roads, drive sensibly and leave plenty of space to brake. All we need is a handbrake to use on hill starts and front brakes cause locks ups, the pads wear out and need replacing frequently and all that nasty dust makes the wheels dirty...
Steve
Steve
I have only had non-PAS griffs and tbh I would never have PAS. Probably just a personal thing but dont be fooled that driving a non-PAS car is really hard work because that just isnt the case. Due to the engine being so far back in the engine bay the full weight is not on the front axles like "normal" cars. As an example the steering in my Griff 500 is noticably lighter than in an old Astra SRI I had which only had 6" wheels!
Sure 3 point turns are quite meaty but its by no means a prohibitive problem.
If you like the car, buy it regardless of whether it has PAS or not is my advice. It really isnt a factor for my money.
I would also say that the resale issue people mention is mainly due to the ignorance of potential buyers to what I explained above. Not a problem for a serious buyer imho.
Sure 3 point turns are quite meaty but its by no means a prohibitive problem.
If you like the car, buy it regardless of whether it has PAS or not is my advice. It really isnt a factor for my money.
I would also say that the resale issue people mention is mainly due to the ignorance of potential buyers to what I explained above. Not a problem for a serious buyer imho.
C'mon Steve, you know that brakes are essential, PAS is not. It was added to help sales to city types who deserted 911s for TVRs a few years ago.
Even if you don't buy the 'one less thing' argument, you gotta admit the 'danger of overcorrection' argument is valid. And I mean for your average Joe Punter, not your race-honed-reflex circuit hero.
Cheers
GB
Even if you don't buy the 'one less thing' argument, you gotta admit the 'danger of overcorrection' argument is valid. And I mean for your average Joe Punter, not your race-honed-reflex circuit hero.
Cheers
GB
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