Light blue toch paper and stand well back...
Discussion
Right. I am now no longer a TVR owner. I've been intending on changing my Griff for a Cerbera for over two months now and try as I might, an appropriate one has not popped up. And, as I have hung around pistonheads for a few weeks, the anecdotes about reliability have somewhat dulled my enthusiasm.
So, what did I get? A 1999 Jag XJR. Why? Reliability, speed, luxury, style and its British-ish. It's not as loud and doesn't turn heads the same way but one thing I like is the initial reaction of "old mans car" which quickly changes to "I want one" after a quick (0-60 5 secs) drive. No battery problems. No bits fall off.
But, what has really got my goat most of all is the trade-in value of the Griff. The Jag garage rang the Glass's guide contact who advised £13K for a 1996 Griffith 500 with FTVRSH, power steering, recent service, 28K miles, not even stone chips - in short immaculate. The garage rang another TVR dealer and they offered the same. Now, I bought it 18 months ago for £23K and have kept an eye on used sales ever since. I thought that I'd made a shrewd move as values seems to have stayed the same for some time but now I know how deluded I was.
The answer is simple: sell privately. I couldn't do this as I had outstanding finance so all in all I lost a packet.
I'm not hugely bitter about it as I had 18 months of serious fun - its just a poor end to the story.
So, what did I get? A 1999 Jag XJR. Why? Reliability, speed, luxury, style and its British-ish. It's not as loud and doesn't turn heads the same way but one thing I like is the initial reaction of "old mans car" which quickly changes to "I want one" after a quick (0-60 5 secs) drive. No battery problems. No bits fall off.
But, what has really got my goat most of all is the trade-in value of the Griff. The Jag garage rang the Glass's guide contact who advised £13K for a 1996 Griffith 500 with FTVRSH, power steering, recent service, 28K miles, not even stone chips - in short immaculate. The garage rang another TVR dealer and they offered the same. Now, I bought it 18 months ago for £23K and have kept an eye on used sales ever since. I thought that I'd made a shrewd move as values seems to have stayed the same for some time but now I know how deluded I was.
The answer is simple: sell privately. I couldn't do this as I had outstanding finance so all in all I lost a packet.
I'm not hugely bitter about it as I had 18 months of serious fun - its just a poor end to the story.
Sad to say but I think you'll suffer a similar thing with the Jag. I had a '95 XJR for 6 months. Bought for 12k, sold 6 months later in desparation after various minor problems for 7.5k (and I had to work hard to get that). It wasn't even a ropey one either !
At times the dealers just don't seem interested in supporting their product do they ?
At times the dealers just don't seem interested in supporting their product do they ?
quote:
The answer is simple: sell privately. I couldn't do this as I had outstanding finance so all in all I lost a packet.
When I bought my current Griff 500 privately, it was still under finance which the guy made me aware of. So instead of paying the owner direct, I paid the finance company directly. No problems at all.
Steve
No, dealers have to factor in a large number of considerations. With a TVR, the dealer has to give a warranty and given the poor reliability records of a number of TVRs this warranty period can cost a great deal of cash.
When you sell privately, you give no such warranty. You don't have to do an HPI check, replace tyres, valet the car blah blah, so you can get a much better price than trading it in.
I bought my '98 Griff 500 2 years ago for £30k, and sold it a year later for £23k. I phoned around various garages at the time, and the best trade in price I got was 19k! In the end it sat on a garage's forecourt who sold it for 24 and took 1k as commission.
TVRs depreciate *very* rapidly. And dealers want to make large amounts of cash. Combien these two factors and you're gonna lose a shed load of cash.
When you sell privately, you give no such warranty. You don't have to do an HPI check, replace tyres, valet the car blah blah, so you can get a much better price than trading it in.
I bought my '98 Griff 500 2 years ago for £30k, and sold it a year later for £23k. I phoned around various garages at the time, and the best trade in price I got was 19k! In the end it sat on a garage's forecourt who sold it for 24 and took 1k as commission.
TVRs depreciate *very* rapidly. And dealers want to make large amounts of cash. Combien these two factors and you're gonna lose a shed load of cash.
I think that there are several points here
1) Currently car sales/purchases are a buyers market, there is massive oversupply in the secondhand market and the fact that dealers/manufacturers offer such low finance packages mean that people are often encouraged to get a new or slightly new car on low (discounted)finance rather than buy privately on bank loans. We negotiated our Saab 9-5 to 5.9% APR!!!!
The prices of trade-ins are a genuine figure of what somebody is prepared to pay for the car, there and then. Because of the oversupply these figures are all erring on the low side and for specialist cars (even ones listed in Glass's Guide) most traders will ring round the trade to see what they can get. I know I've justed traded in an Audi A8.
2) When selling privately, you can be open about the outstanding finance to the purchaser and get them to provide two bankers drafts one for the finance company and one to you. They can even witness the posting of it if they like. This is something that I have done in the past. Other purchasers have been happy with my honesty and let me clear the finance after the transaction. I've even had the latter when we owed the finance company £25K!!!
3) Unfortunately I think you will have the same shock when you come to trade the Jaguar. Big luxury cars (like my A8 was) are generally not bought privately. I had the added disadvantage that I moved to Mid-Wales and A8s were rarer than hens teeth, in fact two garages I went to enquiring about a trade in came out to look at the car beacuse they had never seen one!!! I thought that I had bought near the bottom of the depreciation curve 3.5 year old car purchased in Oct 2000 (16K, new around 50K) and trade-in in May 2002 with another 21K miles on the clock (8.5K!!!!!!). Also the running (servicing)costs were not cheap.
4) You win some and loose some, we were very lucky with our Griff and sold before it went into oversupply, bought for 33K sold 18 months later 29.5K, but I lost on the A8 and on the Impreza Turbo, the latter went into oversupply when I went to sell.
I think that the moral of the story is that for all private punters cars cost you money, its just how much!!!
davidy
1) Currently car sales/purchases are a buyers market, there is massive oversupply in the secondhand market and the fact that dealers/manufacturers offer such low finance packages mean that people are often encouraged to get a new or slightly new car on low (discounted)finance rather than buy privately on bank loans. We negotiated our Saab 9-5 to 5.9% APR!!!!
The prices of trade-ins are a genuine figure of what somebody is prepared to pay for the car, there and then. Because of the oversupply these figures are all erring on the low side and for specialist cars (even ones listed in Glass's Guide) most traders will ring round the trade to see what they can get. I know I've justed traded in an Audi A8.
2) When selling privately, you can be open about the outstanding finance to the purchaser and get them to provide two bankers drafts one for the finance company and one to you. They can even witness the posting of it if they like. This is something that I have done in the past. Other purchasers have been happy with my honesty and let me clear the finance after the transaction. I've even had the latter when we owed the finance company £25K!!!
3) Unfortunately I think you will have the same shock when you come to trade the Jaguar. Big luxury cars (like my A8 was) are generally not bought privately. I had the added disadvantage that I moved to Mid-Wales and A8s were rarer than hens teeth, in fact two garages I went to enquiring about a trade in came out to look at the car beacuse they had never seen one!!! I thought that I had bought near the bottom of the depreciation curve 3.5 year old car purchased in Oct 2000 (16K, new around 50K) and trade-in in May 2002 with another 21K miles on the clock (8.5K!!!!!!). Also the running (servicing)costs were not cheap.
4) You win some and loose some, we were very lucky with our Griff and sold before it went into oversupply, bought for 33K sold 18 months later 29.5K, but I lost on the A8 and on the Impreza Turbo, the latter went into oversupply when I went to sell.
I think that the moral of the story is that for all private punters cars cost you money, its just how much!!!
davidy
Just for ap_smith my Impreza
Bought new in Feb 98 when they were the car to have (ordered in Oct 97) Total cost £25,200 including metallic paint, air con, CD, Prodrive Handling Kit
Sold 2.5 years later with 53K on the clock with FSH £12K. Within months it would have needed a new clutch and discs/pads all round.
All cars depreciate it just depends where the depreciation curve is, what shape it takes. Some specialist cars even go on a roller coaster, When the Griff first came onto the secondhand market, the bottom fell out of the big Wedges, the big Wedge then recovered a bit and now is on the way down since the market is flooded with Chimaeras and Griffs. It will be interesting to see how the Tuscan and Tamora depreciate considering how specialist the engine is.
davidy
Bought new in Feb 98 when they were the car to have (ordered in Oct 97) Total cost £25,200 including metallic paint, air con, CD, Prodrive Handling Kit
Sold 2.5 years later with 53K on the clock with FSH £12K. Within months it would have needed a new clutch and discs/pads all round.
All cars depreciate it just depends where the depreciation curve is, what shape it takes. Some specialist cars even go on a roller coaster, When the Griff first came onto the secondhand market, the bottom fell out of the big Wedges, the big Wedge then recovered a bit and now is on the way down since the market is flooded with Chimaeras and Griffs. It will be interesting to see how the Tuscan and Tamora depreciate considering how specialist the engine is.
davidy
I considered selling privately and making the buyer aware but I was under the impression that one of the golden rules was never to buy a car with outstanding finance. I couldn't settle up easily as it was a 4 year loan and I was only 1.5 years into it! If I had that sort of money, I wouldn't need the finance!
As for the jag, I know they depreciate like a bugger but the difference is that I accept that from the moment of sale - I was under the misapprehension that the Griff would not depreciate quite so much. If you look at the classifieds, you get the impression that depreciation is not so bad. What I'm trying to get at is whether the classifieds are telling porkies, or is it just the case that I was stung because I didn't sell privately?
As for the jag, I know they depreciate like a bugger but the difference is that I accept that from the moment of sale - I was under the misapprehension that the Griff would not depreciate quite so much. If you look at the classifieds, you get the impression that depreciation is not so bad. What I'm trying to get at is whether the classifieds are telling porkies, or is it just the case that I was stung because I didn't sell privately?
I made £1800 profit on an S3, but that's the exception unfortunately. The only way you can dodge most of the depreciation is to go for an older and higher-mileage car so that someone else has already borne the brunt. Some years ago I got a 2.5 yr-old Jag 4.0 Sovereign with 73K miles from an auction for £10,500 (list price then £36K!) I kept it for 18 months and sold it privately for £9,750. The only thing that failed was a bulb which cost £3.50.
To minimise loss, you have to put some effort in - ideally buy at auction, then sell privately not too long afterwards. That's OK for 'common' cars and even Jags - I wouldn't mind an XJ8 one day - but I would never buy a TVR at an auction!
To minimise loss, you have to put some effort in - ideally buy at auction, then sell privately not too long afterwards. That's OK for 'common' cars and even Jags - I wouldn't mind an XJ8 one day - but I would never buy a TVR at an auction!
I bought a '92 3 series with 112k for £6000, put another 100,000 miles on her and the traded it in for £4k... cheapest car I'll ever own I think... but it never brought a smile to my face like the Griff does.. and of course the car I traded it in for has lost @ £5k per year anyway!!!... no doubt I'll also be hit for a loss of about £5k per year with my 1998 Griff 500. But upon purchase, I convinced myself that it was worth it.... fingers crossed eh?
I hear talk of early griffs now changing hands for £10k and early chimps for <£10k...
I hear talk of early griffs now changing hands for £10k and early chimps for <£10k...
Dealer prices are always going to be higher when you're buying and lower when you're selling. When I bought a Chim privately for £15.5k, the owner had been offered around £13k by a dealer and an equivalent car would have been listed at about £19k from a dealer. So with no depreciation and a bit of negotiation with the dealer, you could still blow about £5k on the dealer's spread.
I've been told that BMW dealers work on a £4k spread minimum and once the cars get close to end of warranty time/100,000 miles then they just farm them out to the industry by what are called 'blind' bids.
TVR dealers will have to have more in the car to satisfy the warranty etc, I understand and appreciate that.. plus the fuel from all of the tyre kickers... so does that mean less tyre kicking = cheaper tivs... I don't think so some how :-)
TVR dealers will have to have more in the car to satisfy the warranty etc, I understand and appreciate that.. plus the fuel from all of the tyre kickers... so does that mean less tyre kicking = cheaper tivs... I don't think so some how :-)
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