RE: VW to sell Lambo and Bugatti?
Friday 12th January 2007
Lamborghini Gallardo: VW's no more?Big changes are afoot at VW, as Martin Winterkorn, who, once just head of Audi, from yesterday becomes head of the VW brand; Ferdinand Piëch remains chairman. It could mean the end of VW's ownership of both Bugatti and Lamborghini.
VW to sell Lambo and Bugatti?
Porsche's influence could spell Bugatti's end
Lamborghini Gallardo: VW's no more?
Winterkorn replaces the departing Wolfgang Bernhard, whose tenure as head of VW ended yesterday. He was known as a restructuring expert who took a tough line on costs, so his departure means the current structure of dividing the Wolfsburg company's seven marques across the VW and Audi brand groups is to end, according to the FT today.
But the real powerhouses in the VW group remain Piëch and entryist Porsche boss Wendelin Wiedeking. Porsche owns 27.4 per cent of VW which gives Wiedeking a seat on the board, even if, under a German law designed to prevent a foreign takeover of VW, he can't exercise more than about 20 per cent of his voting rights.
Wiedeking is said to be unhappy that Porsche is not the premium brand in the VW group -- and VW's three top-end marques, if you include Porsche, does look like too many for any company. According to Autocar, Wiedeking has even allegedly commissioned an special, high performance Porsche supercar to smash the Veyron's 252mph top speed record.
If Wiedeking has his way, Bugatti could be converted into an exclusive coachbuilding operation while Lamborghini could become VW's Aston Martin, and be sold off.
Meanwhile, rumours suggest former VW head Bernhard is thinking about heading back to former employer DaimlerChrysler, in order to front Chrysler's ailing US operations.
Discussion
This would be a disaster for Lamborghini.
Lambo has thrived after being bought by the VW group. Who else would buy Lambo? BMW? doubt it. Ford? No way. GM? No. That really only leaves the Japanese manufacturers. Can't really see Lambo thriving under a Japanese manufacturer.
Lambo's history of troubled times are about to become the future.
Shame. Surely there is enough room for Porsche and Lambo to be within the same group. Porsche don't really seem to be effected by Lambo sales.
Lambo has thrived after being bought by the VW group. Who else would buy Lambo? BMW? doubt it. Ford? No way. GM? No. That really only leaves the Japanese manufacturers. Can't really see Lambo thriving under a Japanese manufacturer.
Lambo's history of troubled times are about to become the future.
Shame. Surely there is enough room for Porsche and Lambo to be within the same group. Porsche don't really seem to be effected by Lambo sales.
I agree - there would be problems for Lambo, although I can potentially see a private investor buying-in if certain supply agreements are included. Hope so...supercar world won't be the same without them!
re: Lambo/Porsche overlap - there isn't now, but Porsche are ambitious, and it boils down to egos - Porsche wouldn't want another group company being 'more prestigious' than them. Sad...but I think that's the case.
Bug as coachbuilder sounds interesting though...
re: Lambo/Porsche overlap - there isn't now, but Porsche are ambitious, and it boils down to egos - Porsche wouldn't want another group company being 'more prestigious' than them. Sad...but I think that's the case.
Bug as coachbuilder sounds interesting though...
havoc said:
I agree - there would be problems for Lambo, although I can potentially see a private investor buying-in if certain supply agreements are included. Hope so...supercar world won't be the same without them!
re: Lambo/Porsche overlap - there isn't now, but Porsche are ambitious, and it boils down to egos - Porsche wouldn't want another group company being 'more prestigious' than them. Sad...but I think that's the case.
Bug as coachbuilder sounds interesting though...
re: Lambo/Porsche overlap - there isn't now, but Porsche are ambitious, and it boils down to egos - Porsche wouldn't want another group company being 'more prestigious' than them. Sad...but I think that's the case.
Bug as coachbuilder sounds interesting though...
Good points, but i can't help but feel Porsche has devalued it's brand with the introduction of the base boxster / cayman and that ruddy 4x4. The Carrera GT is nothing short of a work of art, and still my chosen supercar if the magic 'numbers' were to ever come up but for sheer weekend insanity i'd rather spend 120k on a lambo than 100k on a 911 turbo (the latter naturally being the better day to day car.)
How would everyone perceive the raging bull if you could buy a £30k Lambo? Or they built something to rival the TT / 350z.
Jon,
Yes they've devalued the 'brand', but they've massively increased the value of the company...and ultimately that's what they are there for. So the Porsche bosses have done exactly the right thing...for Porsche. Lambo...are slightly different, as they have zero history of 'ordinary' cars, whereas Porsche came from humble roots (and before you start...tractors ARE NOT cars!
).
I'd hope Lambo stick with the 'Ferrari model', and release nothing sub-£100k. That way they remain ultra-exclusive lunatic exotica...just as they should be!
Yes they've devalued the 'brand', but they've massively increased the value of the company...and ultimately that's what they are there for. So the Porsche bosses have done exactly the right thing...for Porsche. Lambo...are slightly different, as they have zero history of 'ordinary' cars, whereas Porsche came from humble roots (and before you start...tractors ARE NOT cars!
). I'd hope Lambo stick with the 'Ferrari model', and release nothing sub-£100k. That way they remain ultra-exclusive lunatic exotica...just as they should be!
havoc said:
Lambo...are slightly different, as they have zero history of 'ordinary' cars, whereas Porsche came from humble roots (and before you start...tractors ARE NOT cars! ).
). Not strictly true.. Lamborghini originate from manufacturing Tractors!! Don't get much more humble than that..
Fire99 said:
havoc said:
Lambo...are slightly different, as they have zero history of 'ordinary' cars, whereas Porsche came from humble roots (and before you start...tractors ARE NOT cars! ).
). Not strictly true.. Lamborghini originate from manufacturing Tractors!! Don't get much more humble than that..
PMSL...I mentioned they have zero history of 'ordinary' CARS...then qualify about tractors...and you still pull me up on it!
Read the effing post before you reply, eh?
wab172uk said:
Porsche don't really seem to be effected by Lambo sales.
True before the Gallardo came along but I suspect that the sales of upper end 911s have suffered. I know loads of ex-911 (usually GT series or Turbo) owners with Gallardos.
Having said that, we still only talking of a few hundred cars a year, worldwide, so it could hardly make a dent overall, I guess.
Hmmm.
As said before this is more about ego than model overlap. If Lambo is making money, then they should be be pushed higher up the bracket, starting at mid/bottom Ferrai money and ending up with something post Pagini...... but it seems Porsche want the to be the cream of VAG (why not? their racing heritage, research, engineering etc would suggest that).
If that is the case they need to develop their range up into the Pagini range (and stay there) to qualify that.
and I have no issue whatsoever with a Porsche in the £30k bracket, especially when they are as good as they are....doesn't devalue the brand for me.
Does the Mini/1-series devalue BMW's M6?
Did the A2 devalue the A8?
Does a Ka devalue the GT (don't answer that one)
Nope thats a snobs perspective imo...and anyway £10k will get you pretty much any brand you want won't it?, if you're not idiotic enough to consider brand new the only way into a prestige brand.
If that is the case they need to develop their range up into the Pagini range (and stay there) to qualify that.
and I have no issue whatsoever with a Porsche in the £30k bracket, especially when they are as good as they are....doesn't devalue the brand for me.
Does the Mini/1-series devalue BMW's M6?
Did the A2 devalue the A8?
Does a Ka devalue the GT (don't answer that one)
Nope thats a snobs perspective imo...and anyway £10k will get you pretty much any brand you want won't it?, if you're not idiotic enough to consider brand new the only way into a prestige brand.
cross-eyed-twit said:
in spite of the albeit mainly German business going on here I cant believe that they (the germans) can effectively make it law that a foreign company can't take over VW. How European is that? We would never manage that here...
Only the UK follow the EU competition rules (that Germany/France dream up) properly - that's why all of our water/power companies are now in foregin control but Spain/France etc do eveything they can to prevent UK PLC taking over their infrastructure.
That's a shame. VW was the best thing to happen to Lamborghini, in my opinion. They've come so far from the 80s and 90s to have developed the Gallardo. It's actually usable as a daily driver (if you're into that sort of thing). And also, I never experience customers cross-shopping between Turbos and Gallardos (or LPs and CGTs), they're into one or the other from the start. I guess I can understand the ego thing, Porsche wanting to be top-dog, but VW is making money with Lambo, so I hope the voters do the right thing. Who cares about Bugatti
Surely Porsche devalued itself in prestige terms with the Cayman and Cayenne models, and is not a Lambo issue....??? If you see yourself as a prestige/supercar market, dont sell sub 50k cars and ugly mud pluggers.....
Sounds like Porsche trying to have its cake and eat it to me.
Maybe devolving Audi aaway and letting it take Lambo woul be a better idea.... or just removing Porsche from the whole VW group altogether by selling up their controlling shares...???
Sounds like Porsche trying to have its cake and eat it to me.
Maybe devolving Audi aaway and letting it take Lambo woul be a better idea.... or just removing Porsche from the whole VW group altogether by selling up their controlling shares...???
With respect, every bit of that headline is 'if' this and 'but' that, nothing concrete at all. Lamborghini this year are for the first time turning a profit on the Murcielago, they have been making money on the Gallardo for 2 years. I dont think VAG will sell,just my halfpennies worth
simonspider said:
With respect, every bit of that headline is 'if' this and 'but' that, nothing concrete at all. Lamborghini this year are for the first time turning a profit on the Murcielago, they have been making money on the Gallardo for 2 years. I dont think VAG will sell,just my halfpennies worth
You could make the profit point about Aston Martin although admittedly, Ford are selling because they're in a bit of a financial mess.
However, IMO a profitable company with heritage and cool-ness will always sell easier (and obviously for more £££s) than a financial and operational mess.
Adam B said:
cross-eyed-twit said:
in spite of the albeit mainly German business going on here I cant believe that they (the germans) can effectively make it law that a foreign company can't take over VW. How European is that? We would never manage that here...
Only the UK follow the EU competition rules
ere, I won't have that said! We dutchies also have big companies in foreign hands; Endemol (entertainment) is spanish and so is most of our steel I believe.
Lamborghini are nothing to Porsche, compare 2000 sales a year to 96,000. I hardly see how they compete either. It's Porsches fault for making that tank. It's also why Carrera GT values plummet because Porsche isn't seen as a super-premium manufacturer. I expect that annoys them.
I'd expect Lambo to require some serious investment as well soon. They have a less than modern chassis, an ancient V12 engine and a tiny outdated assembly plant. Not a criticism just that's where they are at the moment. So sell while the brand can gain more money than the manufacturing operation will ever make.
I'd expect Lambo to require some serious investment as well soon. They have a less than modern chassis, an ancient V12 engine and a tiny outdated assembly plant. Not a criticism just that's where they are at the moment. So sell while the brand can gain more money than the manufacturing operation will ever make.
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