Unintentional oversteer on a Corrado VR6
Discussion
After 3 years ownership I finally (accidentally) managed to get the back end out in the Corrado...
Came up to a large wide roundabout (junc28 of the M4 exit rounadbout heading westwards if anyone knows it)... fairly busy so not much gap between traffic on the roundabout- finally spotted a gap and booted it to get in...
Accelerated fairly hard in second, entered the right turn to go round the roundabout and the car understeered badly (not surprising seeing as it was wet and I was still piling on the power....indeed I was ready for some understeer to occur
-- however- instead of progressively lifting off until the understeer disappeared (as I should have done) I did a sudden lift-off (which usually tucks the front in nicely, allowing me to power on out of the corner)...
--this time however as soon the weight transfered to the front the back end stepped out/oversteered maybe 30 degrees (it seemed that much to me- was probably less but it seemed a lot at the time) and sideways I went....
- opposite steering controlled it (thank you skid-pan session at Goodwood 4 years ago!!) and with a slight fishtail I was back on my way without any damage (just looking slightly foolish to the traffic behind me) and a reminder to respect the wet roads more as we enter the wet &greasy season again...
Anyway...let that be a warning to the rest of you lest you don't get away as easily as I did...and has anyone else managed have similar oversteer experiences (I recall a thread by JonRB where he may have had something similar?)?
Came up to a large wide roundabout (junc28 of the M4 exit rounadbout heading westwards if anyone knows it)... fairly busy so not much gap between traffic on the roundabout- finally spotted a gap and booted it to get in...
Accelerated fairly hard in second, entered the right turn to go round the roundabout and the car understeered badly (not surprising seeing as it was wet and I was still piling on the power....indeed I was ready for some understeer to occur
-- however- instead of progressively lifting off until the understeer disappeared (as I should have done) I did a sudden lift-off (which usually tucks the front in nicely, allowing me to power on out of the corner)...
--this time however as soon the weight transfered to the front the back end stepped out/oversteered maybe 30 degrees (it seemed that much to me- was probably less but it seemed a lot at the time) and sideways I went....
- opposite steering controlled it (thank you skid-pan session at Goodwood 4 years ago!!) and with a slight fishtail I was back on my way without any damage (just looking slightly foolish to the traffic behind me) and a reminder to respect the wet roads more as we enter the wet &greasy season again...
Anyway...let that be a warning to the rest of you lest you don't get away as easily as I did...and has anyone else managed have similar oversteer experiences (I recall a thread by JonRB where he may have had something similar?)?
Power oversteer in a Corrado VR6 is not uncommon for standard cars
The good news is that the problem can be mitigated by :
a) Adding lowered/stiffered suspension fixes this a lot
b) Rear strut brace increases rear grip even more, without making the car "understeery".
c) Running good quality tyres
Of course now that you know the back has the potential to step out under power (and my old Ford Escorts used to do the same thing) that is probably the best thing as you now know that it's likely to happen and can drive accordingly.
HTH
John
The good news is that the problem can be mitigated by :
a) Adding lowered/stiffered suspension fixes this a lot
b) Rear strut brace increases rear grip even more, without making the car "understeery".
c) Running good quality tyres
Of course now that you know the back has the potential to step out under power (and my old Ford Escorts used to do the same thing) that is probably the best thing as you now know that it's likely to happen and can drive accordingly.
HTH
John
Hang on a minute - this is just plan old lift off oversteer.
I spent the majority of my two VMax appearances going into the corners at higher and higher speeds, going in under power, lifting off to unsettle the car sideways, and then catching it and powering back out. indeed, I was much of the entertainment on those days, with people purposely driving slower than me just to watch
Additionally, I would (on big empty roundabouts) toy with this, and purposely throw the back end out by being harsh with my inputs.
Any front wheel drive car with reasonable power should do this, not least one that actually handles well. You can use it to your advantage, however, those opportunites are not that often
It's not power oversteer as Corozin explains it though, as it's not really something that applies to a FWD car.
ETA: I think Jons experience was an XFiles case, what with the randomness of it
ETA2: It's even more fun when you've got the drive at the right end of the car (i.e. at the rear), an empty roundabout, and no traffic
I spent the majority of my two VMax appearances going into the corners at higher and higher speeds, going in under power, lifting off to unsettle the car sideways, and then catching it and powering back out. indeed, I was much of the entertainment on those days, with people purposely driving slower than me just to watch
Additionally, I would (on big empty roundabouts) toy with this, and purposely throw the back end out by being harsh with my inputs.
Any front wheel drive car with reasonable power should do this, not least one that actually handles well. You can use it to your advantage, however, those opportunites are not that often
It's not power oversteer as Corozin explains it though, as it's not really something that applies to a FWD car.
ETA: I think Jons experience was an XFiles case, what with the randomness of it
ETA2: It's even more fun when you've got the drive at the right end of the car (i.e. at the rear), an empty roundabout, and no traffic
Edited by neil_cardiff on Monday 13th November 16:16
neil_cardiff said:
Hang on a minute - this is just plan old lift off oversteer.
I
I
Yup- thats exactly what it was!.. I've had the back step out slightly before when lifting off (or braking even) in corners, but never the full on sideways 'drift' I experienced on Saturday...
...scared me slightly as I've heard horror stories of Corrado's ending up in trees/ditches/curbs backwards from this- just wanted to see if there was any truth in these rumours having just avoided becoming such a statistic myself..
neil_cardiff said:
I think Jons experience was an XFiles case, what with the randomness of it
Yes, it was. But no Gillian Anderson in attendance, unfortunately. 
I suspect my little problem may have been down to tired suspension & bushes and possibly down to the fact that an MoT subsequently picked up excessive play in the O/S rear wheel bearing (although that might was very likely caused by the off rather than causing it).
Anyway, back on topic, this does sound like classic lift-off oversteer. You even said that you did it to tuck the nose back in - something that only works when you don't exceed the grip of the rear tyres. Looks like you did and as well as tucking in the nose you got the back out. No surprises there really.
Edited by JonRB on Monday 13th November 16:37
What was described in the original post was oversteer under power (around a roundabout). This can occur with a Corrado if conditions are not ideal and you hold a tight(ish) cornering line (say a roundabout) for a few seconds.
It's unexpected and scary when it happens to you the first time. I don't think the trick rear axle bushes help the car much in these situations as they encourage the rear to come around a bit as well.
Hope this clarifies what I said!
John
It's unexpected and scary when it happens to you the first time. I don't think the trick rear axle bushes help the car much in these situations as they encourage the rear to come around a bit as well.
Hope this clarifies what I said!
John
corozin said:
What was described in the original post was oversteer under power (around a roundabout).
No it wasn't - he said he lifted off suddenly. Unless he's edited the post and it's not showing as edited, anyway.
LOO in the 'teg was it's party-piece when damp, greasy or wet...and it was a joy to control, such that after a short while you could 'dance' with it, controlling the attitude almost at will. Always nice to have a wide bit of road in case you got overconfident though...
havoc said:
corozin said:
What was described in the original post was oversteer under power (around a roundabout).
No it wasn't - he said he lifted off suddenly. Unless he's edited the post and it's not showing as edited, anyway.
LOO in the 'teg was it's party-piece when damp, greasy or wet...and it was a joy to control, such that after a short while you could 'dance' with it, controlling the attitude almost at will. Always nice to have a wide bit of road in case you got overconfident though...
Exactly, and also quite provokable in the Golf - having not driven a Corrado I can't comment, but I'd hazard that you can do the same.
I'd not want to be in a position to be going fast enough to get the back end out in the way Corozin mentions, but having launched myself into a long corner as fast as it physically would go (110mph as I had to accelerate out of a 90 degree corner before), I'd say the power oversteer in a FWD is mostly due to shit tyre choice that anything else - I had to be brutal to get the car sideways (although again, very controllable).
But to reinforce the above, it's LOO pure and simple in this case.
unless your names Jon, then its just something wierd.
Edited to add: Aforementioned launching into corner was done at Bruntingthorpe before anyone moans about naughtiness on public roads.
Edited by neil_cardiff on Tuesday 14th November 18:00
Previously had 2 track-prepared but road-legal Sciroccos and a Mk2 Golf GTI and they all lift-off oversteered like a b@stard in the wet.
My current Corrado VR6 has just had new springs, dampers, rear-axle bushes and a geometry setup at Stealth and it tucks in nicely in corners with a slight throttle lift. Haven't had it properly sideways yet but it feels like it would go pretty swiftly if I came off the throttle abruptly with the suspension loaded-up in a corner.
Corozin,
Never heard of power-oversteer in a FWD car myself. Every one I've driven will eventually just understeer if you exceed the cornering limits with the throttle planted. Maybe if the there was a geometry problem or you had Kwik-Suk Indonesian remoulds on the back with Eagle F1s on the front perhaps...
My current Corrado VR6 has just had new springs, dampers, rear-axle bushes and a geometry setup at Stealth and it tucks in nicely in corners with a slight throttle lift. Haven't had it properly sideways yet but it feels like it would go pretty swiftly if I came off the throttle abruptly with the suspension loaded-up in a corner.
Corozin,
Never heard of power-oversteer in a FWD car myself. Every one I've driven will eventually just understeer if you exceed the cornering limits with the throttle planted. Maybe if the there was a geometry problem or you had Kwik-Suk Indonesian remoulds on the back with Eagle F1s on the front perhaps...
Well it only really happens if the roads are wet. I know a couple of other owners who've spun out under power when the roads are wet.
Just to clarify, it's not really "power oversteer" but the back can be made to step out when the car is cornering under power. It's not so much that the front powers it sideways, more that the back end just loses grip. Taking a continuous loop around a wet roundabout with ½ a turn of lock with constant throttle at 45-50mph pretty much recreates the scenario.
I had Uniroyals when I had my own "sideways" incident years ago, but moving to Toyos helped a lot, as did changing the suspension from standard to a stiffer set up. Nowadays I use R888's and now both ends of the car slides all the time when the rain's coming down - far more entertaining than getting it sideways accidentally, D.
Just to clarify, it's not really "power oversteer" but the back can be made to step out when the car is cornering under power. It's not so much that the front powers it sideways, more that the back end just loses grip. Taking a continuous loop around a wet roundabout with ½ a turn of lock with constant throttle at 45-50mph pretty much recreates the scenario.
I had Uniroyals when I had my own "sideways" incident years ago, but moving to Toyos helped a lot, as did changing the suspension from standard to a stiffer set up. Nowadays I use R888's and now both ends of the car slides all the time when the rain's coming down - far more entertaining than getting it sideways accidentally, D.
Edited by corozin on Sunday 26th November 13:32
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