RE: VW's new super- turbocharged Golf
Tuesday 6th September 2005
Golf GT: super/turbochargedVW is to bolt both a supercharger and a turbocharger onto a new 1.4-litre engine, which will as then generate 167bhp and 177lb-ft of torque.
VW's new super- turbocharged Golf
GT variant to get twin induction-boosters
Golf GT: super/turbocharged
Combined with VW's FSI direct fuel injection, the unit is said to be good for 39mpg. The idea is to compete with the super-frugal wave of diesels that swamps most car company's ranges.
The way the TSI engine works, according to this week's Autocar, is that the combination provide power across the rev range -- although we thought that's how a supercharger works -- especially at low revs, while the turbo kicks in higher up, eventually replacing the supercharger's effect altogether.
The Golf GT will benefit first from the motor, the model slotting in below the GTi. The magazine reports that the TSI propels the Golf to 62mph in a moderately respectable 7.9 seconds and a top speed of 136mph. The GT goes on sale next year.
VW reckoned it's the first time the combination of both supercharger and turbocharger has been used on a road car, although it was found in the Lancia Delta S4 rally car -- and in WWII aircraft engines.
Discussion
Does not seem to be the first time this has been done on a road car.
Limited research seems to show that Nissan did a limited run of a similar thing at the start of the 90's on it's European Micra, the March :
http://www.modifiedcars.com/cars/925.htm
http://www.nissanperformancemag.com/august03/ask_sarah/
"Known as twinchargers, the Lancia rally cars employed both a turbo and a supercharger. HKS even offered an upgrade for the Toyota MR2 with a supercharger-into-turbo kit. Nissan introduced a twincharged car, the front wheel drive March. The March (Nissan Micra in Europe) was originally offered in 1982 and is still around today in Japan and Europe, where there is also a Nismo version with intake, exhaust, suspension, and Rays rims (they get all the tasty cars). A turbo model was introduced in 1985, but the twincharged version was available from 1989-1992 and only sold in Japan and Malaysia. The March Super Turbo version had an inline 4 electronically fuel-injected 930cc single overhead cam turbo and supercharged engine, the MA09ERT. Only 110 hp at stock 0.7 bars of boost (about 10.3 psi), it was still practical to almost double the boost to get an extra 20-30 hp. At only 1700 pounds, the Super Turbo was capable of 0-60 in only 7.5 seconds. "
P~
Limited research seems to show that Nissan did a limited run of a similar thing at the start of the 90's on it's European Micra, the March :
http://www.modifiedcars.com/cars/925.htm
http://www.nissanperformancemag.com/august03/ask_sarah/
"Known as twinchargers, the Lancia rally cars employed both a turbo and a supercharger. HKS even offered an upgrade for the Toyota MR2 with a supercharger-into-turbo kit. Nissan introduced a twincharged car, the front wheel drive March. The March (Nissan Micra in Europe) was originally offered in 1982 and is still around today in Japan and Europe, where there is also a Nismo version with intake, exhaust, suspension, and Rays rims (they get all the tasty cars). A turbo model was introduced in 1985, but the twincharged version was available from 1989-1992 and only sold in Japan and Malaysia. The March Super Turbo version had an inline 4 electronically fuel-injected 930cc single overhead cam turbo and supercharged engine, the MA09ERT. Only 110 hp at stock 0.7 bars of boost (about 10.3 psi), it was still practical to almost double the boost to get an extra 20-30 hp. At only 1700 pounds, the Super Turbo was capable of 0-60 in only 7.5 seconds. "
P~
they've done it again calling something that Lancia did years ago a german innovation, the delta s4 WAS available as a road car after all even if they didn't make many and I remember all the fuss about narrow angle V engines when the VR6 appeared when Lancia did them donkeys years ago. not a bad idea though if it can be made to work reliably and well enough
I'm not sure that the Nissan will have been a standard factory model, because as I understand it the Lancia Delta S4 Stradale (the homologation model of the Group B rally car) is the only standard production road car ever to have featured super- and turbocharging.
The engine is renowned as the most advanced road engine ever, and that's why S4's cost £100k even now, whereas Delta Integrale's of similar power and condition can be had for £25k (or maybe it's rareity and the space frame chassis). The link below details a recently sold model that was listed on Autotrader for £100k.
www.walkers-garage.co.uk/s4_new.htm
The twin-charged Golf sounds nice, but i'm not sure it will see the light of day. If you wanted a frugal petrol, then a small engine with a large turbo would be what you need, so you can potter around with the turbo not spooling most of the time (say, for combined cycle tests) yet maintain a high headline power figure. The only benefit to twin charging is elimination of turbo lag on a heavily boosted engine. So if VW were to go to all that trouble of developing one, not to mention service regimes for such an advanced engine, you'd think it would be a performance range-topper.
I hope they do develop one, but do it from a bigger engine and use it for an R model.
The engine is renowned as the most advanced road engine ever, and that's why S4's cost £100k even now, whereas Delta Integrale's of similar power and condition can be had for £25k (or maybe it's rareity and the space frame chassis). The link below details a recently sold model that was listed on Autotrader for £100k.
www.walkers-garage.co.uk/s4_new.htm
The twin-charged Golf sounds nice, but i'm not sure it will see the light of day. If you wanted a frugal petrol, then a small engine with a large turbo would be what you need, so you can potter around with the turbo not spooling most of the time (say, for combined cycle tests) yet maintain a high headline power figure. The only benefit to twin charging is elimination of turbo lag on a heavily boosted engine. So if VW were to go to all that trouble of developing one, not to mention service regimes for such an advanced engine, you'd think it would be a performance range-topper.
I hope they do develop one, but do it from a bigger engine and use it for an R model.
Interesting but as others have said it's been done before.
I believe the F40 had 1 SC then 2 TC in an attempt to get a broad power band from a modest engine size.
Also not at all sure that there were ever TC and SC 'planes in WW11.
Me thinks there's some facts wrong there. For sure SC's were in evidence on Spitfires but I didn't think that technology for a turbine spinning at the required speeds was available to adapt to the small size of a TC until the late 60's.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
M
I believe the F40 had 1 SC then 2 TC in an attempt to get a broad power band from a modest engine size.
Also not at all sure that there were ever TC and SC 'planes in WW11.
Me thinks there's some facts wrong there. For sure SC's were in evidence on Spitfires but I didn't think that technology for a turbine spinning at the required speeds was available to adapt to the small size of a TC until the late 60's.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
M
skid said:
Interesting but as others have said it's been done before.
I believe the F40 had 1 SC then 2 TC in an attempt to get a broad power band from a modest engine size.
Also not at all sure that there were ever TC and SC 'planes in WW11.
Me thinks there's some facts wrong there. For sure SC's were in evidence on Spitfires but I didn't think that technology for a turbine spinning at the required speeds was available to adapt to the small size of a TC until the late 60's.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
M
Yep turbos were used in WW2 eg Allison 1710 was turbo charged in some variants, most notably in the P38 Lightning. P47 T/bolt and B17/B24 also Turbo'd. The tungsten they needed to make it was scare though and most turbo superchargers as they were more commonly called back then were limited to bombers like the B17. The turbo version was mainly useful for high altitude power, with aircraft like the P-39 cobra and P-40 which also had this engine could have been excellent fighters with the turbo engine, instead they had to make do with being good low altitude fighters due to shortages. Its confusing because they had mechanical superchargers on most WW2 aircraft, often two stage, and also exhaust driven superchargers which are turbos, but are often referred to as just 'superchargers' so it can get confusing. As a side note the allies also developed intercoolers to boost power as well.
As for cars, the Nissan Micra was available in super and turbo charged form, it was a road car, albeit a homologation model like the Escort RS cosworth. it was produced from '89 to '92 though JDM market only I think. HKS also did a turbo kits that could be added to a Toyota Corolla 4AGZE model to create a super turbo. I have also seen a 1GGZTE toyota supercharged and turbo'd engine in a Jap wreckers once, never been able to find out what car it was out of though.
I fail to see why VW are doing this though? The SC will hurt fuel economy if its boosting all the time and will be drawing some power from the engine, it also adds complexity, they would be better off with just a decent turbo setup, modern turbos have little lag. Or better yet stick a bigger turbo'd engine in it, instant respone because its a big engine and loads of top end since its got a turbo as well.
skid said:
Interesting but as others have said it's been done before.
I believe the F40 had 1 SC then 2 TC in an attempt to get a broad power band from a modest engine size.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
M
F40 has twin turbos, therefore please be corrected.
Bennno
>> Edited by bennno on Tuesday 6th September 14:31
skid said:
Interesting but as others have said it's been done before.
I believe the F40 had 1 SC then 2 TC in an attempt to get a broad power band from a modest engine size.
Also not at all sure that there were ever TC and SC 'planes in WW11.
Me thinks there's some facts wrong there. For sure SC's were in evidence on Spitfires but I didn't think that technology for a turbine spinning at the required speeds was available to adapt to the small size of a TC until the late 60's.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
M
oh and the F40 had twin turbos, never had a supercharger on it unless they prototyped one maybe? The Nissan Micra Super Turbo and Lancia were developed around this time (mid-late 80s) so it may have been on their minds.
As a side note I have driven a Micra SuperTurbo and considered buying one (most are too worn out now) they are a hoot to drive, they aren't really a revvy engine, more of a strong torque throughout the rev range, its actually quite good in that it's really driveable, you don't need to change down for corners you can accelerate through from lower revs than you expect. I guess its like having a bigger engine, without quite the throttle response you would get from a big NA engine though. I suppose it saves a few kgs from not having a bigger engine, I still dont think its worth it, but I will reserve judgement until I see it and maybe get to drive it. At least its a little different from the norm.
Wouldn't it be more worthwhile to buy the 150bhp diesel version and then invest wisely in some performance software for the car? Something like the RICA Remap boosting performance to 190bhp and 390Nm?? I'm sure superchips and the others do similar software! This has to be a cheaper option and would give even better economy with less dangerous servicing bills!
Hmm... Like most of you guys I have to say I'm surprised of seeing this twincharging approach on such a very small engine. But looking at how they are trying to position it inside the VW model range, it somewhat makes sense:
There is gonna be another engine variant of the same Golf GT model, a 2.0 liter turbodiesel. Both engines will have the same horsepower and a boatload of midrange power as well. And, what's more interesting, the petrol engine will have almost the same fuel economy (around 7l/100km compared to 6l/100km). Additionally, the price is gonna be a bit lower for the petrol twincharged variant. So basically, they are trying to bring back the petrol engine to the minds of their more sporty-minded customers on a budget, who were previously pushed into those boring diesel engines!
There is gonna be another engine variant of the same Golf GT model, a 2.0 liter turbodiesel. Both engines will have the same horsepower and a boatload of midrange power as well. And, what's more interesting, the petrol engine will have almost the same fuel economy (around 7l/100km compared to 6l/100km). Additionally, the price is gonna be a bit lower for the petrol twincharged variant. So basically, they are trying to bring back the petrol engine to the minds of their more sporty-minded customers on a budget, who were previously pushed into those boring diesel engines!
I have the GT TDi 2.0 Litre turbo diesel golf and it is not a boring car to drive... but once you get to 5000rpm you have got to change gear or else the power drop off is instant... it goes well and holds the road really well. Oh and it gives me about 45 to the gallon on a good run betwen 80 and 90mph (on my private runway of course
)
)Just a link that relates to MR2 mk1 Twinchargers. 300ish hp = fun/death
www.mr2supercharger.com/FeaturedTwinchargers.html
I dont see the market for this in the Golf segment, now a Lupo with this engine..........
www.mr2supercharger.com/FeaturedTwinchargers.html
I dont see the market for this in the Golf segment, now a Lupo with this engine..........
JonRB said:
I ran a fully tricked-up Micra Super Turbo in one of the Gran Turismo games. Was an absolute hoot to drive and absolutely murdered the opposition in certain classes of race.
Obviously this has very little bearing on the real car, but I thought I'd mention it anyway.
Yeah its so cheap to buy and mod, it will waste any FWD class car there's no point buying any other front wheeler in career mode, unfortunately I haven't driven a full race version in real life, that would be sweet
I remember thinking years ago if this would be possible, to me it sounds like a brilliant idea. At low revs the supercharger (low geared) force feeds the engine and when the revs pick up and turbo (high geared) spools up it takes over giving you the benifits of big turbo power but eliminating the lag at low revs with the supercharger.
As a side note I remember reading somewhere once that this type of engine is known as a 'compound' engine.
As a side note I remember reading somewhere once that this type of engine is known as a 'compound' engine.
Far from being a homologation special the Nissan March Super Turbo was a standard production model. The homologation special if you could call it that was the March R although even that was built on the same production line as the "shopping" cars but the first thing that was nailed to the floor pan was a roll cage and the rest of the body was built over that!! Penti Arrikala know how much fun they were because he used to drive one in WRC in the 80's and Lex motorsport if I remember rightly had a team of three of these little beasties. The clever Japs reduced the engine capacity to 830cc so that by the time the forced induction factors had been applied it could still be rtun in the under 1600cc class. Is it any wonder they know how to make small things work wonderfully well and of course some of the big things. At least they didn't have to build a special series of cars to slaughter the Nurburgring like Porsche did lol.
Like some of you have said, the Nissan micra did have a turbosupercharger, as did the (small number of) S4's. That's two cars (limited run yes, but still production) that had this before VW. So how can they say it's a first in a road car (they'll probably correct it to "first mass-production road car" ) ? Looks like someone at VW didn't do their homework...
>> Edited by lap_time on Wednesday 7th September 01:49
>> Edited by lap_time on Wednesday 7th September 01:49
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