Mk1 Golf brakes
Discussion
I am in the planning stages of building a MK1 Golf Road Rally car (basically a road legal track day car). Engine will be stock GTI engine (probably 1600), with a K&N filter & a 2.5" racing Jetex exhaust, so we're not talking about extreme power.
The problem I have is the brakes. I've tried Black diamond disks & various pads (with braided hoses), but although they work "ok", they still feel very wooden.
My wife's old Polo (a 1997 MK4) had the same disks/pads at the GTi, and used to out brake the Golf by a long way & feel better going so.
I'm wondering about new Seat/Audi callipers ? Do Cupra R or TT callipers fit, or am I going to need new brackets made up.
The other (more extreme/difficult) option I was thinking of was relocating the servo to the drivers side. Possibly the same way a Cerbera servo works (behind the dash, so I'm not taking up any engine bay space), and in doing so, replacing it with a Mk2/3 16V servo.
Any thought's/suggestions ?
The problem I have is the brakes. I've tried Black diamond disks & various pads (with braided hoses), but although they work "ok", they still feel very wooden.
My wife's old Polo (a 1997 MK4) had the same disks/pads at the GTi, and used to out brake the Golf by a long way & feel better going so.
I'm wondering about new Seat/Audi callipers ? Do Cupra R or TT callipers fit, or am I going to need new brackets made up.
The other (more extreme/difficult) option I was thinking of was relocating the servo to the drivers side. Possibly the same way a Cerbera servo works (behind the dash, so I'm not taking up any engine bay space), and in doing so, replacing it with a Mk2/3 16V servo.
Any thought's/suggestions ?
No real clue, but you've left out an important fact. What size wheels are you planning to use? I've stuck with the original 13"s and while stopping power isn't brilliant, with drilled disks and green stuff pads, it's good enough for the way I drive.
Keep me informed as to your progress, we should book a trackday together once she is ready...
>> Edited by trooper1212 on Thursday 2nd December 11:43
Keep me informed as to your progress, we should book a trackday together once she is ready...
>> Edited by trooper1212 on Thursday 2nd December 11:43
olly said:
I am in the planning stages of building a MK1 Golf Road Rally car (basically a road legal track day car). Engine will be stock GTI engine (probably 1600), with a K&N filter & a 2.5" racing Jetex exhaust, so we're not talking about extreme power.
The problem I have is the brakes. I've tried Black diamond disks & various pads (with braided hoses), but although they work "ok", they still feel very wooden.
My wife's old Polo (a 1997 MK4) had the same disks/pads at the GTi, and used to out brake the Golf by a long way & feel better going so.
I'm wondering about new Seat/Audi callipers ? Do Cupra R or TT callipers fit, or am I going to need new brackets made up.
The other (more extreme/difficult) option I was thinking of was relocating the servo to the drivers side. Possibly the same way a Cerbera servo works (behind the dash, so I'm not taking up any engine bay space), and in doing so, replacing it with a Mk2/3 16V servo.
Any thought's/suggestions ?
Hi Olly,
One of the problems with uprating early Golf/Scirocco front brakes is the hub carrier; some of these had the slides for the calipers actually cast on as part of the assembly, so it's impossible to change the caliper.
What you need is a pair of hub carriers with two bolt fixings on them, this then allows you to fit several different calipers, like early Audi Quattro or 100, which on a Golf will give you awesome stopping power without spending a fortune.
The other thing you can do, although I can't remember exactly which one to use, is change the brake servo to a much larger one. Again I think it was an Audi 80 that I used but can't be certain, but there is one that's a straight fit and gives you much more assistance that will remove the "wooden" feel.
You can have a lot of fun with a Mark 1 Golf.
What I remember off top of head:
13" wheels:
239mm (std size) - various 'uprated' brands.
14" wheels:
256mm - Mk2 Golf 16v discs, carriers from an early 90's Audi (have a list of suitable dondors somewhere), and Lockheed calipers from the audi or a golf 16v.
270mm - uses spacer brackets & bolts to move standard caliper out for 270mm disc. Disc is either a machined oem item, or from a different manufacturer, I can't remember which.
15" wheels:
280mm - as per 270mm kit, but uses Corrado G60 discs.
>15" wheels:
I am sure all sorts of VAG/Brembo bits can be made to fit, but sounds like overkill for your situation.
Master cylinder:
The 22.2mm m/c and 9" servo from the Mk2 Golf 16v can be made to fit - i think about 10mm needs to be cut off a puchrod, and check for clearance on injected cars (new m/c are only £35 from Eurocarparts). Supposed to improve feel.
Rear brakes:
Discs can be fitted from a Mk2 Golf (stub axle, hubs calipers,etc), using Scirocco 16v handbrake cables, though the benefits of rear discs are debatable. Also Mk2 caliper handbrake mechanisms seize often, Mk3 Golf are better.
Think I have read about slightly larger drums front a passat(?) being fitted, but again I am not sure if it would be worth the trouble?
There is a chap on No-Rice looking to make a load of copies of the 'Autocavan' uprated cross linkage. Don't know what is uprated, or how it helps though. Worth checking the standard linkage is adjusted up correctly.
Again, all off the top of my head - check clubgti.com and No-rice.com forums for more/better info.
Cheers, Phil
13" wheels:
239mm (std size) - various 'uprated' brands.
14" wheels:
256mm - Mk2 Golf 16v discs, carriers from an early 90's Audi (have a list of suitable dondors somewhere), and Lockheed calipers from the audi or a golf 16v.
270mm - uses spacer brackets & bolts to move standard caliper out for 270mm disc. Disc is either a machined oem item, or from a different manufacturer, I can't remember which.
15" wheels:
280mm - as per 270mm kit, but uses Corrado G60 discs.
>15" wheels:
I am sure all sorts of VAG/Brembo bits can be made to fit, but sounds like overkill for your situation.
Master cylinder:
The 22.2mm m/c and 9" servo from the Mk2 Golf 16v can be made to fit - i think about 10mm needs to be cut off a puchrod, and check for clearance on injected cars (new m/c are only £35 from Eurocarparts). Supposed to improve feel.
Rear brakes:
Discs can be fitted from a Mk2 Golf (stub axle, hubs calipers,etc), using Scirocco 16v handbrake cables, though the benefits of rear discs are debatable. Also Mk2 caliper handbrake mechanisms seize often, Mk3 Golf are better.
Think I have read about slightly larger drums front a passat(?) being fitted, but again I am not sure if it would be worth the trouble?
There is a chap on No-Rice looking to make a load of copies of the 'Autocavan' uprated cross linkage. Don't know what is uprated, or how it helps though. Worth checking the standard linkage is adjusted up correctly.
Again, all off the top of my head - check clubgti.com and No-rice.com forums for more/better info.
Cheers, Phil
Ahhhh, one of my favourite topics....
There are two major problems with the mk 1 Golf/Scirocco braking system. The first is that the master cylinder is too small, but this is easilly fixed with a 22mm mk 2 golf 16V GTI cylinder, but you will also need to change the servo as well. These can be had for not much money from scrapeys or outfits such as GSF, eurocar parts etc.
What really saps the pedal feel though is the fact that the master cylinder is on the left of the car, whilst your brake pedal is on the right. To do the RHD version of these cars VW put in a rather poor cross linkage with many parts that bend and flex and wear. A few years back you could buy an aftermarket rotating beam assembly froma few tuners that cured this problem, or at least made a huge improvement, but this is sadly no longer available.
All is not lost however, as apparently the South African Citigolf (a five door mk1 with a new polo dash still in production) uses a similar rotating beam arrangement, which a few people are looking at as an upgrade. Alternatively, I have spoken to a guy who made his own version using I think Ford parts.
Finally you should probably look at a rear disk conversion, again from a mkII 16V GTi, which along with the appropriate master cylinder will improve bith feel and performance but will require 14" wheels and a Scirocco 16V handbrake cable.
I also see that Phil has already supplied most of this information whilst I was typing....
There are two major problems with the mk 1 Golf/Scirocco braking system. The first is that the master cylinder is too small, but this is easilly fixed with a 22mm mk 2 golf 16V GTI cylinder, but you will also need to change the servo as well. These can be had for not much money from scrapeys or outfits such as GSF, eurocar parts etc.
What really saps the pedal feel though is the fact that the master cylinder is on the left of the car, whilst your brake pedal is on the right. To do the RHD version of these cars VW put in a rather poor cross linkage with many parts that bend and flex and wear. A few years back you could buy an aftermarket rotating beam assembly froma few tuners that cured this problem, or at least made a huge improvement, but this is sadly no longer available.
All is not lost however, as apparently the South African Citigolf (a five door mk1 with a new polo dash still in production) uses a similar rotating beam arrangement, which a few people are looking at as an upgrade. Alternatively, I have spoken to a guy who made his own version using I think Ford parts.
Finally you should probably look at a rear disk conversion, again from a mkII 16V GTi, which along with the appropriate master cylinder will improve bith feel and performance but will require 14" wheels and a Scirocco 16V handbrake cable.
I also see that Phil has already supplied most of this information whilst I was typing....
All answers correct so far.
14" wheels will limit you to 256mm disks (if you want to keep it in the VW stable. There are aftermarket kits which will allow a bigger disk, but these get expensive, particularly with replacement parts.)
Disks from Mk2 16v, calipers ditto.
Caliper carriers from a 5-cylinder audi. So, 5-cyl 80, 90, Coupe, Quattro and the 5-cyl passats work as well. Choose where you get them from. Pay from £20 - £150 depending upon who is selling them (people who know about the conversion charge the earth.) These will bolt onto all Mk1 Golf GTi's (1600 and 1800). You can also use the calipers from the car that donates the carriers - they are the same.
If you are doing this then you must also change the servo/master cylinder. (Bigger calipers with the stock cylinder are a no-no.) 16v (or late 8v) mk2 servo and master cylinder. Bolt straight on - removing 1cm of the threaded input shaft. Very easy job if you take the inlet manifold and plenum chamber off.
Rear disks can be fitted, but make no difference to the braking potential and are more hassle than the drums you replace. Keep the drums adjusted and nothing more.
Pagid fast-road pads are good. Always used cheap disks, can't comment about more expensive ones.
Keep the linkage adjusted, and you won't need an autocavan one. (There should be no play in it at all.) Also flush the fluid entirely when you change the calipers.
Do all this, and your Mk1 will stop like it has hit a brick wall. With these mods on such a light car, you will overpower the tyres quite easily. Any more brakes and you will need more grip on the road.
Oli.
14" wheels will limit you to 256mm disks (if you want to keep it in the VW stable. There are aftermarket kits which will allow a bigger disk, but these get expensive, particularly with replacement parts.)
Disks from Mk2 16v, calipers ditto.
Caliper carriers from a 5-cylinder audi. So, 5-cyl 80, 90, Coupe, Quattro and the 5-cyl passats work as well. Choose where you get them from. Pay from £20 - £150 depending upon who is selling them (people who know about the conversion charge the earth.) These will bolt onto all Mk1 Golf GTi's (1600 and 1800). You can also use the calipers from the car that donates the carriers - they are the same.
If you are doing this then you must also change the servo/master cylinder. (Bigger calipers with the stock cylinder are a no-no.) 16v (or late 8v) mk2 servo and master cylinder. Bolt straight on - removing 1cm of the threaded input shaft. Very easy job if you take the inlet manifold and plenum chamber off.
Rear disks can be fitted, but make no difference to the braking potential and are more hassle than the drums you replace. Keep the drums adjusted and nothing more.
Pagid fast-road pads are good. Always used cheap disks, can't comment about more expensive ones.
Keep the linkage adjusted, and you won't need an autocavan one. (There should be no play in it at all.) Also flush the fluid entirely when you change the calipers.
Do all this, and your Mk1 will stop like it has hit a brick wall. With these mods on such a light car, you will overpower the tyres quite easily. Any more brakes and you will need more grip on the road.
Oli.
zcacogp said:
All answers correct so far.
14" wheels will limit you to 256mm disks (if you want to keep it in the VW stable. There are aftermarket kits which will allow a bigger disk, but these get expensive, particularly with replacement parts.)
Disks from Mk2 16v, calipers ditto.
Caliper carriers from a 5-cylinder audi. So, 5-cyl 80, 90, Coupe, Quattro and the 5-cyl passats work as well. Choose where you get them from. Pay from £20 - £150 depending upon who is selling them (people who know about the conversion charge the earth.) These will bolt onto all Mk1 Golf GTi's (1600 and 1800). You can also use the calipers from the car that donates the carriers - they are the same.
If you are doing this then you must also change the servo/master cylinder. (Bigger calipers with the stock cylinder are a no-no.) 16v (or late 8v) mk2 servo and master cylinder. Bolt straight on - removing 1cm of the threaded input shaft. Very easy job if you take the inlet manifold and plenum chamber off.
Rear disks can be fitted, but make no difference to the braking potential and are more hassle than the drums you replace. Keep the drums adjusted and nothing more.
Pagid fast-road pads are good. Always used cheap disks, can't comment about more expensive ones.
Keep the linkage adjusted, and you won't need an autocavan one. (There should be no play in it at all.) Also flush the fluid entirely when you change the calipers.
Do all this, and your Mk1 will stop like it has hit a brick wall. With these mods on such a light car, you will overpower the tyres quite easily. Any more brakes and you will need more grip on the road.
Oli.
Agree with all this except the rear drums.
This guy is going to race this, rear drums are not up to it, in fact they're not even up to fast road use.
The self adjusters just don't work after a few miles, which means constantly having to remove the drums and do it by hand or put up with huge amounts of lost travel.
Rear drums also mean the front brakes are working harder, limiting your pad life and causing fade earlier than with rear discs.
Lastly, it is a helluva sight easier to stick in a new set of pads than it is shoes; best reason of all for going for discs!
Another aside is that drums don't dissipate the heat nearly as quickly as discs, so your hub bearing life is reduced into the bargain.
IOLAIRE said:
Agree with all this except the rear drums.
This guy is going to race this, rear drums are not up to it, in fact they're not even up to fast road use.
The self adjusters just don't work after a few miles, which means constantly having to remove the drums and do it by hand or put up with huge amounts of lost travel.
Rear drums also mean the front brakes are working harder, limiting your pad life and causing fade earlier than with rear discs.
Lastly, it is a helluva sight easier to stick in a new set of pads than it is shoes; best reason of all for going for discs!
Another aside is that drums don't dissipate the heat nearly as quickly as discs, so your hub bearing life is reduced into the bargain.
Fair enough ... never built one for track use, only used a road-going one on a track.
If you really can get better results from rear disks on this than from rear drums then you are doing better than me ... I never bothered, and have never heard good stories about them. (And rue the rear disks on my Mk2 GTi, as I swear the drums on the Mk1 were easier to run and better!)
Oli.
On a budget the 256mm set up from a later Mk2 16v is an excellent uprate esp with decent discs & pads- I use Brembo sport discs & pagid fast road pads, & with braided hoses & new fluid it copes well with track abuse & thats on my heavier Mk2, also my Corrado has the same set up & brakes were fine at the 'ring & the brakes took a lot of abuse there.
Not sure on the Mk1 if you can just use a later Mk2 16v hub/upright like you can for a 239mm Mk2 uprate tho. (thats what I did to my Mk216v)
256mm discs are fine under 14inch rims.
If you want to stick to 14 wheels, most of the big brake options like the Brembos etc wont fit as you normally need 16 inch or larger wheels, tho I think Willwood do a 4 piston caliper that fits a 256mm disc. Think it even sqeased under 13 inchers too.
A VW specialist is working on a Porsche caliper & VW 280mm disc set up to fit under 15 inch rims as thats about the most popular size that the majority of the track Mk1 & 2 Golf crew use- cheap tyres & easy to get used slicks etc & huge range of wheels to use- most wider that available in 14inch too.
My Golf is gunna be a guinea pig for that Porker brakes set up so I'll let ya know how I get on with it.
Not sure on the Mk1 if you can just use a later Mk2 16v hub/upright like you can for a 239mm Mk2 uprate tho. (thats what I did to my Mk216v)
256mm discs are fine under 14inch rims.
If you want to stick to 14 wheels, most of the big brake options like the Brembos etc wont fit as you normally need 16 inch or larger wheels, tho I think Willwood do a 4 piston caliper that fits a 256mm disc. Think it even sqeased under 13 inchers too.
A VW specialist is working on a Porsche caliper & VW 280mm disc set up to fit under 15 inch rims as thats about the most popular size that the majority of the track Mk1 & 2 Golf crew use- cheap tyres & easy to get used slicks etc & huge range of wheels to use- most wider that available in 14inch too.
My Golf is gunna be a guinea pig for that Porker brakes set up so I'll let ya know how I get on with it.
The Scirocco with the PL 16v lump as standard has uprated front hubcarrier assemblies with larger calipers and discs.
You may have to switch to the bespoke outer CV joints to use this kit along with the appropiate Master cylinder.
Or you could shorten a couple of Mk2 strut housings for use with the MK2 hub carriers. You also need track rods and chase the tracking geo but the car will have better steering due to the improved track rod mountings on the Mk2 hub carriers.
m
You may have to switch to the bespoke outer CV joints to use this kit along with the appropiate Master cylinder.
Or you could shorten a couple of Mk2 strut housings for use with the MK2 hub carriers. You also need track rods and chase the tracking geo but the car will have better steering due to the improved track rod mountings on the Mk2 hub carriers.
m
iguana said:
edc- I'll let ya know when its done
corozin- pretty sure the calipers on 280s are the same as the 256s
I knew it would be here www.designadubs.com/280brembo.html
I guess the same problem applies as to clearance to the spokes/offset. You going to test it with a space saver lol cos the a 3.5" saver clears standard 280s lol
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