Blue smoke at startup
Discussion
My Jag XJ8 has just been in to have the full upper and lower timing chains done and the garage also replaced a head gasket and new head on one bank. This little lot cost £1400. I got it back and it was blowing lots of steam out of the exhaust so it went back to them and now has had the head gasket done on the other bank as well. The car seemed fine on the run home but now is pumping out a lot of blue smoke on start-up from overnight. This doesn't happen any other time I start it after say popping into a shop and there is no blue smoke when accelerating or running at any other time.
The garage says it is a result of oil getting into the exhaust when the head gasket failed but to be honest I'm dubious because if that was the case and it was just blowing out residual oil from the exhaust why wouldn't it do it all the time.
Does anyone have any advice or view on my next move. I've just paid them another £500 for the head gasket job and the new cyclinder head on the second bank so really am at the end of my tether with the car and am keen to get it running properly without further major expense.
What could be causing this?
What would you do?
Saxon
The garage says it is a result of oil getting into the exhaust when the head gasket failed but to be honest I'm dubious because if that was the case and it was just blowing out residual oil from the exhaust why wouldn't it do it all the time.
Does anyone have any advice or view on my next move. I've just paid them another £500 for the head gasket job and the new cyclinder head on the second bank so really am at the end of my tether with the car and am keen to get it running properly without further major expense.
What could be causing this?
What would you do?
Saxon
Puff of smoke on cold start is usually the result of oil drain down past leaking or worn valve stem seals and into the combustion chamber.
Was the head new or secondhand? £1400 for all the chains, a new head, labour fluids and gaskets sounds a bit cheap to me. If the head they fitted was secondhand chances are the seals have gone and allowing oil past.
You could check that there is not too much oil in the sump and that there is no excess crankcase pressure causing oil to be blown up through the breather system and into the manifold. Loosen the oil filler cap with the engine running and hold it over the filler orifice. There should be a slight vacuum, or at worst a very slight escape of pressure. If there's a lot of positive pressure or clouds of oil mist than chances are a breather is blocked or the engine is excessively worn.
Higher mileage V8s will occasionally puff a bit on a cold start up anyway - especially after a good thrashing - and if it's only a tiny amount I'd not normally worry if I saw it, unless it smoked under load or on the overun as well. But as you've only had the problem after a head has been replaced then my guess is the valve stem oil seals are faulty.
Take it back IMO. It's down to the garage to fit components that are up too the job - although to be fair if the head is a s/h one they may not have known but even so they should take respnsibility.
Was the head new or secondhand? £1400 for all the chains, a new head, labour fluids and gaskets sounds a bit cheap to me. If the head they fitted was secondhand chances are the seals have gone and allowing oil past.
You could check that there is not too much oil in the sump and that there is no excess crankcase pressure causing oil to be blown up through the breather system and into the manifold. Loosen the oil filler cap with the engine running and hold it over the filler orifice. There should be a slight vacuum, or at worst a very slight escape of pressure. If there's a lot of positive pressure or clouds of oil mist than chances are a breather is blocked or the engine is excessively worn.
Higher mileage V8s will occasionally puff a bit on a cold start up anyway - especially after a good thrashing - and if it's only a tiny amount I'd not normally worry if I saw it, unless it smoked under load or on the overun as well. But as you've only had the problem after a head has been replaced then my guess is the valve stem oil seals are faulty.
Take it back IMO. It's down to the garage to fit components that are up too the job - although to be fair if the head is a s/h one they may not have known but even so they should take respnsibility.
Edited by Jaguar steve on Friday 26th December 17:53
Jaguar Steve,
Many thanks for your reply. To be honest I'm completely hacked off with all this. Is this likely to be a big and expensive job. The head they fitted was I think a reconditioned one. Should I stop the cheque for £500 until it's sorted or should I let it go through and hope they sort it out? I'm not happy so far but on the other hand would rather maintain amiable relations with them.
I'd welcome your advice.
Best regards,
Saxon
Many thanks for your reply. To be honest I'm completely hacked off with all this. Is this likely to be a big and expensive job. The head they fitted was I think a reconditioned one. Should I stop the cheque for £500 until it's sorted or should I let it go through and hope they sort it out? I'm not happy so far but on the other hand would rather maintain amiable relations with them.
I'd welcome your advice.
Best regards,
Saxon
I'd suggest take the car back and ask questions. Give them the opportunity to fix the problem or put your mind at rest about it.
It's always difficult to get litigatious about repairs to older cars and that's effectively what you are doing if you stop payment. The problem you have is not that the car isn't repaired - I'm guessing you had a timing chain or tensioner go which did the usual smashed valves - but that it now puffs a bit when you start up after the repairs. At a higher mileage it will be very hard to prove that it didn't do that before the work and most mechanics will have seen it all before and would look at the car and say so what? It's not actually a serious problem just a bit of wear and tear on the stem seals.
I'm afraid there's no definition of a reconditioned head either. To do the job properly would entail several hours work and almost inevitably a visit to a machine shop for the valve guides to be replaced as well as a really through chemical clean - all of which costs a lot of money. On the other hand the head could have been whipped off a car in a scrapyard, wiped over and fitted as is.
Until you ask you don't know about the "reconditioned" head and what warranty you've got and where it came from.
Unfortunately It's a big job changing the stem oil seals - the head has to be stripped and the valves removed and the chances are if the seals have gone there will be evedience of wear in the valve guides too.
Go and have a chat. As you say you don't want to loose your relationship with the garage and it's likley they won't want to loose you as a customer either.
ETA. Just a thought - they did do an oil change after all the work I assume?
There's just a chance that if the the car has an ordinary mineral oil in the sump and it's really knackered - it'll be way to thin when hot if it's degraded enough - then this combined with some wear on the seals may be enough to cause the problem. An oil change using a good quality semi or full synthetic 5W 40 might make a big improvement after a few miles. The detergents and Plasticlears in the fresh oil might even clean and soften the seals - if that's the problem - to an extent that they are able to start working well enough to stop some or all of the oil leaking down.
It's always difficult to get litigatious about repairs to older cars and that's effectively what you are doing if you stop payment. The problem you have is not that the car isn't repaired - I'm guessing you had a timing chain or tensioner go which did the usual smashed valves - but that it now puffs a bit when you start up after the repairs. At a higher mileage it will be very hard to prove that it didn't do that before the work and most mechanics will have seen it all before and would look at the car and say so what? It's not actually a serious problem just a bit of wear and tear on the stem seals.
I'm afraid there's no definition of a reconditioned head either. To do the job properly would entail several hours work and almost inevitably a visit to a machine shop for the valve guides to be replaced as well as a really through chemical clean - all of which costs a lot of money. On the other hand the head could have been whipped off a car in a scrapyard, wiped over and fitted as is.
Until you ask you don't know about the "reconditioned" head and what warranty you've got and where it came from.
Unfortunately It's a big job changing the stem oil seals - the head has to be stripped and the valves removed and the chances are if the seals have gone there will be evedience of wear in the valve guides too.
Go and have a chat. As you say you don't want to loose your relationship with the garage and it's likley they won't want to loose you as a customer either.
ETA. Just a thought - they did do an oil change after all the work I assume?
There's just a chance that if the the car has an ordinary mineral oil in the sump and it's really knackered - it'll be way to thin when hot if it's degraded enough - then this combined with some wear on the seals may be enough to cause the problem. An oil change using a good quality semi or full synthetic 5W 40 might make a big improvement after a few miles. The detergents and Plasticlears in the fresh oil might even clean and soften the seals - if that's the problem - to an extent that they are able to start working well enough to stop some or all of the oil leaking down.
Edited by Jaguar steve on Saturday 27th December 09:05
Hi Steve
Sorry to highjack this thread but I have a similar niggle with my XK8. Its only on startup and other than a little embarressing at times the car runs perfectly well and so might just leave as is.
The only reason I would want to fix it is if I wanted to sell and it might just put a buyer off.
Do you have any ball park figures in terms of hours in order to put this job right. I cant imagine that parts would be too expensive - most of the costs would be in stripping the heads down.
Cheers
Sorry to highjack this thread but I have a similar niggle with my XK8. Its only on startup and other than a little embarressing at times the car runs perfectly well and so might just leave as is.
The only reason I would want to fix it is if I wanted to sell and it might just put a buyer off.
Do you have any ball park figures in terms of hours in order to put this job right. I cant imagine that parts would be too expensive - most of the costs would be in stripping the heads down.
Cheers
Most of the cost wold be labour - although you'd be surprised at how much the gaskets, seals and fluids would add up to.
I don't have the official repair times for removing both heads, stripping them and fitting new seals then putting it all back together but at a guess it would be at least two days work.
You'd have to wonder if it's worth it in cash terms TBH, especially given the value of older Jaguars. If it is stem seals leaking then it's not a serious problem although I'd agree it would put anybody off if they saw it on a potential purchase.
Try a oil change using a good quality 5W 40 synthetic and checks on the breather hoses as I've suggested. Clutching at straws maybe, but you never know unless you try.
My 83k XJ ocasionally puffs a bit too - usually on the next cold start up after a spanking - it's only a small amount and clears quickly and is nothing to be concerned over IMO.
I don't have the official repair times for removing both heads, stripping them and fitting new seals then putting it all back together but at a guess it would be at least two days work.
You'd have to wonder if it's worth it in cash terms TBH, especially given the value of older Jaguars. If it is stem seals leaking then it's not a serious problem although I'd agree it would put anybody off if they saw it on a potential purchase.
Try a oil change using a good quality 5W 40 synthetic and checks on the breather hoses as I've suggested. Clutching at straws maybe, but you never know unless you try.
My 83k XJ ocasionally puffs a bit too - usually on the next cold start up after a spanking - it's only a small amount and clears quickly and is nothing to be concerned over IMO.
I know this is an old thread but I thought I'd pass on my experience with the same problem. My 1999 XJ8 VDP started blowing blue smoke only on startup. At first it was only after sitting overnight and only once in a while, perhaps every 3rd or 4th startup. I figured it was valve seals and perhaps only when the engine stopped when a cam was in a certain position. Eventually it got worse and worse until it was happening every day on startup. oftentimes the smoke was horrendous and was getting pretty embarrassing.
I read a thread posted somewhere from someone in a similar situation. He decided to totally rebuild his engine from top to bottom. New pistons, rings, valves, valve seals everything. Surely the problem would be fixed. But within a week the startup smoke was back. At that time he looked his PCV system that Jaguar uses.. Basically that it is comprised of a system where there are for a lack of a better word "Brillo Pad" like filters (PN and description unknown) that are designed to scrub the oily air in the crankcase before being sucked into the intake system. They are located in the drivers (Left Hand) side valve cover. There is no replacement part number as they are built into the valve cover but easily removed for cleaning.
Mine had turned into what appeared to be charcoal briquettes incapable of straining oily air or any air at all. In affect I believe the PCV system was rendered inoperative and oil was being blown past seals and/or being injected into the throttle body during startup. Take your pick. All I know is that once the material was cleaned up and re-installed the problem has disappeared now for 3 years. A friend of mine had experienced a problem where his XJ8 would smoke and lose power on the freeway then stall . After a few minutes it would start and then proceed happily on it's way. He cleaned his PVC strainers and the problem disappeared.
Hope this helps and keeps you from spending time and money needlessly.
I read a thread posted somewhere from someone in a similar situation. He decided to totally rebuild his engine from top to bottom. New pistons, rings, valves, valve seals everything. Surely the problem would be fixed. But within a week the startup smoke was back. At that time he looked his PCV system that Jaguar uses.. Basically that it is comprised of a system where there are for a lack of a better word "Brillo Pad" like filters (PN and description unknown) that are designed to scrub the oily air in the crankcase before being sucked into the intake system. They are located in the drivers (Left Hand) side valve cover. There is no replacement part number as they are built into the valve cover but easily removed for cleaning.
Mine had turned into what appeared to be charcoal briquettes incapable of straining oily air or any air at all. In affect I believe the PCV system was rendered inoperative and oil was being blown past seals and/or being injected into the throttle body during startup. Take your pick. All I know is that once the material was cleaned up and re-installed the problem has disappeared now for 3 years. A friend of mine had experienced a problem where his XJ8 would smoke and lose power on the freeway then stall . After a few minutes it would start and then proceed happily on it's way. He cleaned his PVC strainers and the problem disappeared.
Hope this helps and keeps you from spending time and money needlessly.
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