Discussion
I think the consensus is that the X will fall by the way side and not be replaced/updated. It has not been given anymore power than the 3.0ltr V6, which was detuned from 231BHP when it first came out, due to the fact the drivetrain couldn't really handel anymore power, hence no superchargerd version.
The 2.0/2.2D are the last off the line and its a pity that they are not 4WD.
G
The 2.0/2.2D are the last off the line and its a pity that they are not 4WD.
G
I think it is a shame. But with the situation that Jaguar is in, they need to cut production down to only the most profitable ranges. What has killed the x-type is that the diesels were launched too late, and that there never was an Automatic Diesel. Really mind-boggling short-sightedness really. However, it really is too late, the cost of developing a new car is just too high. What would be in Jaguar's best interest would be to develop a small X3/Freelander rival based on the x-type platform using the 2.2 diesel and an auto box. Of course Ford would not allow that while Jaguar and Land Rover are under the same umbrella. But, I think it would bring enough money to develop a smaller roadster (f-type), and at the other scale, has the time passed for another supercar in the CGT/SLR mould? The XJ220 was a poorly executed project, but I am sure that with the products Jaguar have been turning out recently, they could do a lot better, and really do the country proud. Once all of those are out I think Jaguar could add a 7-seater Range Rover rival using their TDV6 and new TDV8 engines, and finally a move back into the x-type market.
On the topic of the TDV8 engine. IIRC, in this week's Autocar, it says that the engine won't fit in the XJ, XK or S-type.... How wrong is that? You would think that after the disaster Mercedes made, unable to fit the 320cdi engine into the ML, other companies would have learned to make sure that new engines and bodies are designed to accomodate each other. This looks to be a major oversight that they can ill afford at this point.
Hmmm.... went a bit off-topic there... Sorry!
On the topic of the TDV8 engine. IIRC, in this week's Autocar, it says that the engine won't fit in the XJ, XK or S-type.... How wrong is that? You would think that after the disaster Mercedes made, unable to fit the 320cdi engine into the ML, other companies would have learned to make sure that new engines and bodies are designed to accomodate each other. This looks to be a major oversight that they can ill afford at this point.
Hmmm.... went a bit off-topic there... Sorry!
jazzybee said:
...
On the topic of the TDV8 engine. IIRC, in this week's Autocar, it says that the engine won't fit in the XJ, XK or S-type.... How wrong is that?
You would think that after the disaster Mercedes made, unable to fit the 320cdi engine into the ML, ...
Or the fact that they didn't allow the V8 diesel to be fitted to a RHD car at the same time a steering column
jazzybee said:
I think it is a shame. But with the situation that Jaguar is in, they need to cut production down to only the most profitable ranges. What has killed the x-type is that the diesels were launched too late, and that there never was an Automatic Diesel. Really mind-boggling short-sightedness really. However, it really is too late, the cost of developing a new car is just too high. What would be in Jaguar's best interest would be to develop a small X3/Freelander rival based on the x-type platform using the 2.2 diesel and an auto box. Of course Ford would not allow that while Jaguar and Land Rover are under the same umbrella. But, I think it would bring enough money to develop a smaller roadster (f-type), and at the other scale, has the time passed for another supercar in the CGT/SLR mould? The XJ220 was a poorly executed project, but I am sure that with the products Jaguar have been turning out recently, they could do a lot better, and really do the country proud. Once all of those are out I think Jaguar could add a 7-seater Range Rover rival using their TDV6 and new TDV8 engines, and finally a move back into the x-type market.
On the topic of the TDV8 engine. IIRC, in this week's Autocar, it says that the engine won't fit in the XJ, XK or S-type.... How wrong is that? You would think that after the disaster Mercedes made, unable to fit the 320cdi engine into the ML, other companies would have learned to make sure that new engines and bodies are designed to accomodate each other. This looks to be a major oversight that they can ill afford at this point.
Hmmm.... went a bit off-topic there... Sorry!
On the topic of the TDV8 engine. IIRC, in this week's Autocar, it says that the engine won't fit in the XJ, XK or S-type.... How wrong is that? You would think that after the disaster Mercedes made, unable to fit the 320cdi engine into the ML, other companies would have learned to make sure that new engines and bodies are designed to accomodate each other. This looks to be a major oversight that they can ill afford at this point.
Hmmm.... went a bit off-topic there... Sorry!
Thats Jaguar all over, great cars, hopeless management!
I think the market for SUV's is declining with all this anti-4x4 nonsense, esp. in USA with gas prices. I think Jag should avoid that market and stick to cars and a 2 seater sporty number. having said that with the X facing the chop and being built in the same factory as the new Freelander, maybe just change the bumpers and stick a Jag badge on it!
G
It seems to me that Jaguar are rather given to making a hash of it on the commercial side.
The X-Type is an excellent car, but they didn't make a go of it in the company car market early enough. Buyers in that sector like to follow the pack, so the sooner you can load up some sales reps with your new vehicle, the sooner the sheep will start flocking into the dealership for their private cars.
The X-Type is very similar to the A4 in most areas, and just consider how many of them Audi shift. The key difference is that Audi offer as many diesel engines as they do petrol, and they all have the same transmission options, so company car buyers love them. The problem with the X-Type is that, even when the diesel finally arrived, it was very much perceived as the poorer, in-bred sibling of the V6 models which would certainly put me off buying one. If there was a 2.2D with 4WD on the other hand, which is getting near to the highly desirable Audi A4 3.0TDi Quattro, I'd be biting their hand off for one!
An X-Type R would have been nice, but in that instance I think Jaguar got it right in not bothering. The M3 does a good job of attracting drivers to 3-Series BMW's, but I'm not sure they typical X-Type buyer is that kind of hooligan.
There is again similarity with Audi when you consider the much-lamented F-Type. Audi took a major risk with the TT, creating a whole new manufacturing facility just for it. But it paid off in spades, and elevated the whole brand. Considering the boom in prestige sportscars and how many TTs, SLKs, Z3 and Z4's and Boxsters are on the roads, imagine how many F-Types would have sold.
The X-Type is an excellent car, but they didn't make a go of it in the company car market early enough. Buyers in that sector like to follow the pack, so the sooner you can load up some sales reps with your new vehicle, the sooner the sheep will start flocking into the dealership for their private cars.
The X-Type is very similar to the A4 in most areas, and just consider how many of them Audi shift. The key difference is that Audi offer as many diesel engines as they do petrol, and they all have the same transmission options, so company car buyers love them. The problem with the X-Type is that, even when the diesel finally arrived, it was very much perceived as the poorer, in-bred sibling of the V6 models which would certainly put me off buying one. If there was a 2.2D with 4WD on the other hand, which is getting near to the highly desirable Audi A4 3.0TDi Quattro, I'd be biting their hand off for one!
An X-Type R would have been nice, but in that instance I think Jaguar got it right in not bothering. The M3 does a good job of attracting drivers to 3-Series BMW's, but I'm not sure they typical X-Type buyer is that kind of hooligan.
There is again similarity with Audi when you consider the much-lamented F-Type. Audi took a major risk with the TT, creating a whole new manufacturing facility just for it. But it paid off in spades, and elevated the whole brand. Considering the boom in prestige sportscars and how many TTs, SLKs, Z3 and Z4's and Boxsters are on the roads, imagine how many F-Types would have sold.
If Jaguar are not going to produce a 4.2Lt X Type how about going to Elite Performance www.eapj.com
In this months JEC Mag there is an article on their superchaged 3Lt with Nitrous, they claim 600BHP!!
In this months JEC Mag there is an article on their superchaged 3Lt with Nitrous, they claim 600BHP!!
jazzybee said:
On the topic of the TDV8 engine. IIRC, in this week's Autocar, it says that the engine won't fit in the XJ, XK or S-type.... How wrong is that? You would think that after the disaster Mercedes made, unable to fit the 320cdi engine into the ML, other companies would have learned to make sure that new engines and bodies are designed to accommodate each other. This looks to be a major oversight that they can ill afford at this point.
It wasn't an oversight, things are much more complicated than that.
Jaguar would never ever compromise the suspension, powertrain layout, chassis, or width of the whole car just to put one potentially very low volume engine in. You have to ask yourself just how many cars they would be able to sell with this engine in. Jag makes ~15000 XK, ~15000 XJ, ~30000 'S'types, most of these sold in the US & ROW would be petrol and in UK & Europe where diesels do sell how many would go for the TDV6. BMW/Audi/Merc sell f-all of their diesel V8's (few thousand a year each) and their engines are not so much manufactured but crafted. They are horrifically expensive to make and they get away with it because each german brand sell several 100000's more cars than Jag (I think people don't realise just how small Jaguar is compared to it's rivals). The economics just don't stack up for Jag to build expensive engineer's wet dreams like this, it has to concentrate on very desirable cars it can make money on.
One may ask why wasn't the engine designed smaller, too many reasons to go into fully but to be viable for LR (by far the largest main customer) it had to be based off the V6 diesel, which fixes the cyl-block deckheight, bore-spacing, valvetrain, etc. A 60deg V8 is possible but this will use a very weak 30degree split-pin crankshaft and because it doesn't balance fully it requires a balanceshaft that needs to be put somewhere and driving somehow whilst creating lot's of noise, sapping power, and ready to cause lots of durability issues. Basically a proper 90deg V8 is better because it isn't compromising for everybody else. And what an engine it has turned out to be! This V8 has a VERY BIG future.
Besides all this the TDV8, whilst light for a diesel V8, is still quite a heavy engine. This is fine for big trucks but it's really not a good engine for a car. A much better proposition would be if the lightweight TDV6 was made much more powerful.
Edited by wheeljack888 on Saturday 28th October 14:19
*thinks* What did I work on then before it was axed?wheeljack888 said:
jazzybee said:
On the topic of the TDV8 engine. IIRC, in this week's Autocar, it says that the engine won't fit in the XJ, XK or S-type.... How wrong is that? You would think that after the disaster Mercedes made, unable to fit the 320cdi engine into the ML, other companies would have learned to make sure that new engines and bodies are designed to accommodate each other. This looks to be a major oversight that they can ill afford at this point.
It wasn't an oversight, things are much more complicated than that.
Jaguar would never ever compromise the suspension, powertrain layout, chassis, or width of the whole car just to put one potentially very low volume engine in. You have to ask yourself just how many cars they would be able to sell with this engine in. Jag makes ~15000 XK, ~15000 XJ, ~30000 'S'types, most of these sold in the US & ROW would be petrol and in UK & Europe where diesels do sell how many would go for the TDV6. BMW/Audi/Merc sell f-all of their diesel V8's (few thousand a year each) and their engines are not so much manufactured but crafted. They are horrifically expensive to make and they get away with it because each german brand sell several 100000's more cars than Jag (I think people don't realise just how small Jaguar is compared to it's rivals). The economics just don't stack up for Jag to build expensive engineer's wet dreams like this, it has to concentrate on very desirable cars it can make money on.
One may ask why wasn't the engine designed smaller, too many reasons to go into fully but to be viable for LR (by far the largest main customer) it had to be based off the V6 diesel, which fixes the cyl-block deckheight, bore-spacing, valvetrain, etc. A 60deg V8 is possible but this will use a very weak 30degree split-pin crankshaft and because it doesn't balance fully it requires a balanceshaft that needs to be put somewhere and driving somehow whilst creating lot's of noise, sapping power, and ready to cause lots of durability issues. Basically a proper 90deg V8 is better because it isn't compromising for everybody else. And what an engine it has turned out to be! This V8 has a VERY BIG future.
Besides all this the TDV8, whilst light for a diesel V8, is still quite a heavy engine. This is fine for big trucks but it's really not a good engine for a car. A much better proposition would be if the lightweight TDV6 was made much more powerful.
Edited by wheeljack888 on Saturday 28th October 14:19
I'd be more inclind to ask why Jaguar were engineering an engine which doesn't fit into any Jaguar.
'I'd be more inclind to ask why Jaguar were engineering an engine which doesn't fit into any Jaguar'
What????
The V8D, as is the V6D, is a FORD engine developed at Dunton and built at Dagenham. The fact that a few engineers at LR/Jag had some input does not make it a Jaguar engine. All current Jags pre-date the engine, there was never any plan to use it, so why would you expect it to fit?
Anyone who doubts the suitability of a V8D for use in saloons should strongly question Mercs, Audi and BMW's game plan! The Lion V8 is at least as good as their offerings - go try one in an LR.
What????
The V8D, as is the V6D, is a FORD engine developed at Dunton and built at Dagenham. The fact that a few engineers at LR/Jag had some input does not make it a Jaguar engine. All current Jags pre-date the engine, there was never any plan to use it, so why would you expect it to fit?
Anyone who doubts the suitability of a V8D for use in saloons should strongly question Mercs, Audi and BMW's game plan! The Lion V8 is at least as good as their offerings - go try one in an LR.
I agree that the problem with Jaguar has been poor management - the cars have been well designed / reasonably well built but poorly marketed and promoted.
And I think that it is far too easy to blame Ford for restricting the choices that the Jagaur management have been able to make. From what I have seen; Jaguar has been given far too much freedom and has made poor choices, particulary in terms of marketing and styling. (excepting the whole diesel engine debacle which Ford does have to taken some responsibility for).
Jaguar have had the protection of one of the major OEMs for a decade and what did they do? Played it safe and conservative with the XJ and the S type styling - this was the time to be bold and revolutionise the Jaguar design to next level not evolve a pastiche of the past 50 years
In terms of the x type; I really hope that Jaguar does have something in pipe line (though I fear that it doesn't). As has been pointed out, at the top end of the model range - the S classes and the 7 series are not huge profit making vehicles. BMW gets its profit from the bog standard 318s not 760Li.
Without a decent replacement to the X type and the S type, I fear that Jaguar is as good as done for.
Unless they are going to be moved upmarket - i.e. to compete with AM, ah the plan all falls into place..........
And I think that it is far too easy to blame Ford for restricting the choices that the Jagaur management have been able to make. From what I have seen; Jaguar has been given far too much freedom and has made poor choices, particulary in terms of marketing and styling. (excepting the whole diesel engine debacle which Ford does have to taken some responsibility for).
Jaguar have had the protection of one of the major OEMs for a decade and what did they do? Played it safe and conservative with the XJ and the S type styling - this was the time to be bold and revolutionise the Jaguar design to next level not evolve a pastiche of the past 50 years
In terms of the x type; I really hope that Jaguar does have something in pipe line (though I fear that it doesn't). As has been pointed out, at the top end of the model range - the S classes and the 7 series are not huge profit making vehicles. BMW gets its profit from the bog standard 318s not 760Li.
Without a decent replacement to the X type and the S type, I fear that Jaguar is as good as done for.
Unless they are going to be moved upmarket - i.e. to compete with AM, ah the plan all falls into place..........
g77 said:
And I think that it is far too easy to blame Ford for restricting the choices that the Jagaur management have been able to make.
I agree. I was astonished to find that Ford acquired Jaguar back in 1989, and since then they've knocked out the XK, XJR-15 and XJ220! So much for Ford reining in the creativity. g77 said:
As has been pointed out, at the top end of the model range - the S classes and the 7 series are not huge profit making vehicles. BMW gets its profit from the bog standard 318s not 760Li.
It seems to me that Jaguar could do worse than following the example of BMW, Mercedes or Audi. The 3-Series platform not only serves as BMW's mass-market cash cow, but also underpins a lot of their profitable and brand-building niche models, such as the Z4 and X3. Likewise the Mercedes C-Class platform supports the C-Class Sports Coupe, the SLK and both CLK derivatives. Stealing the Mundano platform may save some pennies on the cost of developing the X-Type, but it ties their hands on spin-off niche models, where the real economies of scale are.
g77 said:
As has been pointed out, at the top end of the model range - the S classes and the 7 series are not huge profit making vehicles. BMW gets its profit from the bog standard 318s not 760Li.
It's the opposite way round for Jaguar. XJs and XKs are far more profitable than X & S-TYPEs which they ultimately lose money on. Hence why Jaguar have heavily pushed XJs this year.
I've probably said too much anyway.
All I can add is that there are very good economic & more importantly engineering reasons why it isn't possible. Being an engineer I would like nothing more than to bore you all to death with all the wonderful stuff I've seen and what's coming. I don't think there is anything to worry about on the PAG powertrain (or vehicles) front.
G77, I work in DDC (I'm guessing that you're not faraway) email me offline through my profile. It would be good to have a chat.
Cheers
Phil
All I can add is that there are very good economic & more importantly engineering reasons why it isn't possible. Being an engineer I would like nothing more than to bore you all to death with all the wonderful stuff I've seen and what's coming. I don't think there is anything to worry about on the PAG powertrain (or vehicles) front.
G77, I work in DDC (I'm guessing that you're not faraway) email me offline through my profile. It would be good to have a chat.
Cheers
Phil
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