X300 V12 - opinions wanted
Discussion
Hello everyone.
I've been considering replacing my TVR with an '94 -'97 XJ6, and leaning towards the 4.0 instead of the 3.2, however a 6.0 V12 has just appeared for sale in the local paper and I'd have to say I'm tempted, for rarity value as much as anything.
I'd be interested in people's opinions on the V12 compared to the 4.0. Will I be crippled by extra fuel & maintenance costs? (Probably only approx 4,000 miles pa) Is the performance THAT much better than the 4.0? Are they much better equipped? Is the ride any different? Any comments or observations you have will be appreciated.
Thanks all
I've been considering replacing my TVR with an '94 -'97 XJ6, and leaning towards the 4.0 instead of the 3.2, however a 6.0 V12 has just appeared for sale in the local paper and I'd have to say I'm tempted, for rarity value as much as anything.
I'd be interested in people's opinions on the V12 compared to the 4.0. Will I be crippled by extra fuel & maintenance costs? (Probably only approx 4,000 miles pa) Is the performance THAT much better than the 4.0? Are they much better equipped? Is the ride any different? Any comments or observations you have will be appreciated.
Thanks all
The V12 is the most refined car in the range. It's a bit like having the majority of the performance of the XJR, with the quietness of the 4.0 when driven by a Chauffeur. I am pretty sure the XJ12 came with the sport suspension as standard.
It's probably the most mechanically bulletproof vehicle Jag have made as well.
It's probably the most mechanically bulletproof vehicle Jag have made as well.
After years of high-revving BMW's I bought my first Jag a few months ago-a 1995 X300 model Daimler Double Six, with the 6.0 litre V12.
I run it on a limited mileage policy basis and only cover around 3000 miles per year, so can't really say too much about repair costs etc, except that it's been fine so far and seems very well screwed together.
I do DIY maintenance and find the engine bay nice and spacious to work in, even with the huge V12 sitting there, although servicing the spark plugs takes a while as there's 12 of them! It's not that complex mechanically, and so far it's been a model of reliability.
The single biggest expense is fuel costs-the V12 likes a drink and usually gives around 13-15mpg in town, rising to 20-22 on a long run.
Whilst the 4-speed autobox with lock-up clutch on the torque converter is a big improvement on the old 3-speed autos with no lock-up converter, in this day and age it could really do with a 5th overdrive gear to improve cruising economy, as it has the low-down torque to easily pull a higher ratio.
The single biggest thing you notice with the V12 is the huge low-down pull of the engine, which makes step-offs from the lights very rapid. The 6 litre is considerably less oversquare than the 5.3 litre V12, and is quoted as having 355lbf/ft at a very low 2850rpm.
This makes it effortless to drive fast, and very quiet and refined. My old BMW 540i had similar power-to-weight ratios and similar performance statistics to my Daimler, but they couldn't be more different in how they went about it.
The 'small' 286bhp 4 litre BMW V8 is a high-revving 4-valve head unit, and needs to gather itself before delivering the goods, whereupon it's very rapid.
In contrast the Daimler V12 pulls instantly after you toe the loud pedal, and is up and running before the smaller BMW engine has had chance to gather itself.
The simple 2-valve head/large capacity V12 engine makes the car feel much faster than it's acceleration times indicate.
Apologies for comparing it with a BMW engine on a Jag forum, but I've not driven the Jag V8, although it's very similar to the BMW 4 litre V8 in both design and power output/torque curve, so it seemed a reasonable comparison.
Why the V12? Because I've never had a V12 before, and it's unique! The V8 XJ's seemed too problematical for the older ones my budget would allow, and I've already had the V8 experience in my BMW 540i.
The only downsides to the V12 X300 are fuel consumption and the fact that it's more nose-heavy around corners-other than that it's a fine car and wonderful to drive, and exceptionally refined, as all straight-6 and V12 cylinder engines are compared to a V8, which has to have it's cranshaft counterbalance weights carefully placed to minimise vibration, whereas the V12 is inherently perfectly balanced, just like a straight-6 but with twice the firing impulses per crankshaft revolution. It feels like a big electric motor silently pushing you forwards until the RPM's are high enough to hear the engine's voice.
It's not an everyday car though, and I run mine on a limited mileage basis. The V12 is an old design now and went out of production years ago, but it's stood the test of time, and any defects in the design will have been well sorted out by the time of the V12's demise.
Also, there are no V8 Nikasil issues/timing chain tensioners/plastic impeller water pump issues to worry about on the V12.
It's not an XJR though, and won't give you that kind of performance as it does it's best work at low RPM and is an efforltess glider. The V8 XJR has an extra gear ratio, a smaller more efficient engine, and a supercharger, but I personally find the V12 experience hugely enjoyable and addictive, and wouldn't swap it for the world!
I run it on a limited mileage policy basis and only cover around 3000 miles per year, so can't really say too much about repair costs etc, except that it's been fine so far and seems very well screwed together.
I do DIY maintenance and find the engine bay nice and spacious to work in, even with the huge V12 sitting there, although servicing the spark plugs takes a while as there's 12 of them! It's not that complex mechanically, and so far it's been a model of reliability.
The single biggest expense is fuel costs-the V12 likes a drink and usually gives around 13-15mpg in town, rising to 20-22 on a long run.
Whilst the 4-speed autobox with lock-up clutch on the torque converter is a big improvement on the old 3-speed autos with no lock-up converter, in this day and age it could really do with a 5th overdrive gear to improve cruising economy, as it has the low-down torque to easily pull a higher ratio.
The single biggest thing you notice with the V12 is the huge low-down pull of the engine, which makes step-offs from the lights very rapid. The 6 litre is considerably less oversquare than the 5.3 litre V12, and is quoted as having 355lbf/ft at a very low 2850rpm.
This makes it effortless to drive fast, and very quiet and refined. My old BMW 540i had similar power-to-weight ratios and similar performance statistics to my Daimler, but they couldn't be more different in how they went about it.
The 'small' 286bhp 4 litre BMW V8 is a high-revving 4-valve head unit, and needs to gather itself before delivering the goods, whereupon it's very rapid.
In contrast the Daimler V12 pulls instantly after you toe the loud pedal, and is up and running before the smaller BMW engine has had chance to gather itself.
The simple 2-valve head/large capacity V12 engine makes the car feel much faster than it's acceleration times indicate.
Apologies for comparing it with a BMW engine on a Jag forum, but I've not driven the Jag V8, although it's very similar to the BMW 4 litre V8 in both design and power output/torque curve, so it seemed a reasonable comparison.
Why the V12? Because I've never had a V12 before, and it's unique! The V8 XJ's seemed too problematical for the older ones my budget would allow, and I've already had the V8 experience in my BMW 540i.
The only downsides to the V12 X300 are fuel consumption and the fact that it's more nose-heavy around corners-other than that it's a fine car and wonderful to drive, and exceptionally refined, as all straight-6 and V12 cylinder engines are compared to a V8, which has to have it's cranshaft counterbalance weights carefully placed to minimise vibration, whereas the V12 is inherently perfectly balanced, just like a straight-6 but with twice the firing impulses per crankshaft revolution. It feels like a big electric motor silently pushing you forwards until the RPM's are high enough to hear the engine's voice.
It's not an everyday car though, and I run mine on a limited mileage basis. The V12 is an old design now and went out of production years ago, but it's stood the test of time, and any defects in the design will have been well sorted out by the time of the V12's demise.
Also, there are no V8 Nikasil issues/timing chain tensioners/plastic impeller water pump issues to worry about on the V12.
It's not an XJR though, and won't give you that kind of performance as it does it's best work at low RPM and is an efforltess glider. The V8 XJR has an extra gear ratio, a smaller more efficient engine, and a supercharger, but I personally find the V12 experience hugely enjoyable and addictive, and wouldn't swap it for the world!
I'm not sure if the V12 X300 would be that faster in acceleration than the V12 E-type, as the V12 X300 weighs in at nearly 2 full tons kerb weight, whereas the V12 E-type would be noticeably lighter.
The V8 X300's are a good 150kg lighter than the V12 X300, which goes some way to improving the fuel economy along with the smaller engine and extra gear ratio, but the V12 experience still appeals as it's so effortless and relaxing to drive.
I bought mine in April this year for £6200, and it has been very well looked after by it's previous owners with a good history etc-the interior was immaculate and the bodywork pristine.
As soon as I saw it on the dealer forecourt I was in automotive love and knew I had to have it!
I still lust after late-model V8 XJR's, but my budget wouldn't stretch to the later post-Nikasil/revised timing chain tensioner models so I had to settle for an earlier model so thought I'd try for a V12.
The V8 X300's are a good 150kg lighter than the V12 X300, which goes some way to improving the fuel economy along with the smaller engine and extra gear ratio, but the V12 experience still appeals as it's so effortless and relaxing to drive.
I bought mine in April this year for £6200, and it has been very well looked after by it's previous owners with a good history etc-the interior was immaculate and the bodywork pristine.
As soon as I saw it on the dealer forecourt I was in automotive love and knew I had to have it!
I still lust after late-model V8 XJR's, but my budget wouldn't stretch to the later post-Nikasil/revised timing chain tensioner models so I had to settle for an earlier model so thought I'd try for a V12.
RedOctober said:
I'm not sure if the V12 X300 would be that faster in acceleration than the V12 E-type, as the V12 X300 weighs in at nearly 2 full tons kerb weight, whereas the V12 E-type would be noticeably lighter.
I wasn't meaning to suggest that the V12 would make the X300 particularly fast. I feel that the character of the X300 and the V12 would go together really well. That huge low end torque, which is delivered in such as silky smooth fashion would make the ideal mate to the character of the X300. It would be a totally different experience to the XJR, which I'm sure would be quicker in all situations.
The V12 would still be fast, it's about 6.5s to 60 IIRC, so no slouch. But it wouldn't be a case of racing other cars off the line, with the V12 I'd guess you wouldn't be racing, you'd merely get in front first. Effortlessly.
Cheers
Ken
I'll agree with that 100%. When I'm driving the V12 I just don't feel the need to either race anyone or be a hooligan, so to speak. The acceleration is just so effortless that you don't feel the need to prove yourself or engage in unseemly acts of 'traffic light Grand Prix' etc.
The torque curve of the V12 is ideally matched to moving the not-inconsiderable mass of the V12 X300. What I like the most is that there's no waiting for engine to climb to it's torque peak or come 'on the cam'. It just gets you there instantly with a small flex of the right foot, whatever gear you're in.
It's a very calming experience to drive, and driven carefully even the fuel economy isn't cripplingly high-I can acheive just over 20 mpg with a restrained right foot. Ok, not exactly parsimonious, but much better than the 'it'll only do 12mpg' horror stories bandied around in pub talk etc.
The V8 XJR is a very different animal indeed and even driving my own BMW 540i with the 4 litre V8, which was very similar in design and power output to the Jag AJV8, brings out a very different driving style. The 'small' V8 is a very aggressive engine, all high revs with an aggressive V8 exhaust bellow etc that just encourages fast driving, so you need to exercise restraint or lose your licence.
The V12 is a smooth as silk, mostly silent, and just wafts you along without any apparent effort, whereas you know the V8 is having to work for a living!
With a lot of engines if you apply half throttle with a decent load, and then apply full throttle, there's not usually much difference in the shove in the back you feel going from half to full throttle at low rpm in a high gear.
The V12 X300 is one of those few cars where you can notice the extra 'pull' from the engine by going from half to full throttle even in a high gear with a heavy load, and you can feel the car accelerate harder-something that just doesn't happen in my BMW 540i as it's way below it's torque peak and right 'off the cam'
It does seem like a perfect match, the X300 V12, and it's a bit of a shame they dropped it from the line-up. With a 5-speed autobox and a bit of mild fettling to acheive around 350bhp without sacrificing low-speed pull, I think it would have been able to hold it's own against the current opposition quite well if fitted to the current big Jags!
The torque curve of the V12 is ideally matched to moving the not-inconsiderable mass of the V12 X300. What I like the most is that there's no waiting for engine to climb to it's torque peak or come 'on the cam'. It just gets you there instantly with a small flex of the right foot, whatever gear you're in.
It's a very calming experience to drive, and driven carefully even the fuel economy isn't cripplingly high-I can acheive just over 20 mpg with a restrained right foot. Ok, not exactly parsimonious, but much better than the 'it'll only do 12mpg' horror stories bandied around in pub talk etc.
The V8 XJR is a very different animal indeed and even driving my own BMW 540i with the 4 litre V8, which was very similar in design and power output to the Jag AJV8, brings out a very different driving style. The 'small' V8 is a very aggressive engine, all high revs with an aggressive V8 exhaust bellow etc that just encourages fast driving, so you need to exercise restraint or lose your licence.
The V12 is a smooth as silk, mostly silent, and just wafts you along without any apparent effort, whereas you know the V8 is having to work for a living!
With a lot of engines if you apply half throttle with a decent load, and then apply full throttle, there's not usually much difference in the shove in the back you feel going from half to full throttle at low rpm in a high gear.
The V12 X300 is one of those few cars where you can notice the extra 'pull' from the engine by going from half to full throttle even in a high gear with a heavy load, and you can feel the car accelerate harder-something that just doesn't happen in my BMW 540i as it's way below it's torque peak and right 'off the cam'
It does seem like a perfect match, the X300 V12, and it's a bit of a shame they dropped it from the line-up. With a 5-speed autobox and a bit of mild fettling to acheive around 350bhp without sacrificing low-speed pull, I think it would have been able to hold it's own against the current opposition quite well if fitted to the current big Jags!
You could have bought this for £3k yesterday www.barons-auctions.com/lots/M737YLG.htm
Pretty positive responses there then.
The 6.0 is a mature design and all the 'issues' that can trouble engines have been sorted. The V12 is a famously good engine and as JC said: he always picked cars by their engines. If you want a smooth push then you won't find much better. The 6.0 Jags are going to be classics, deffo. Ideal car for the Sunday swoosh through the A roads, I want one in black. Plus you get that nice buzz of driving something that not everybody will 'get'. And hey, it is a V12! All the supercars where V12s And spitfires...
The 6.0 is a mature design and all the 'issues' that can trouble engines have been sorted. The V12 is a famously good engine and as JC said: he always picked cars by their engines. If you want a smooth push then you won't find much better. The 6.0 Jags are going to be classics, deffo. Ideal car for the Sunday swoosh through the A roads, I want one in black. Plus you get that nice buzz of driving something that not everybody will 'get'. And hey, it is a V12! All the supercars where V12s And spitfires...
MG511-fabulous car in that auction link! Criminally cheap though but quite simply a stupendously vast amount of car for the money. I don't care how sensible a small modern hatchback may be-for around half the list price of a spartan urban runabout you can have a full-cream V12 limo/supercar and live like a Lord on a baked-bean budget!
There were hardly any available when I bought mine in April this year, but it just goes to show that the savage depreciation of these luxury liners means that they're so inedpensive to buy now that it'd almost be rude not to aquire one...
CML-funny you should mention the Spitfire analogy, as I think exactly the same thing when driving my Daimler Double Six. The long nose, V12 engine and graceful classic lines could be written about the Spitfire as much as the V12 X300, and then there's the majestic roar of the V12 as you power down the motorway/runway.
The X300's in general make great used buys and the V12's are unique in being such a rarity.
The Jaguar V12 is one of the world's great engines, outranking BMW's 'clinical' 5 litre V12 offering in 1989, and even earning acknowledgement from engineers of the mighty Mercedes Benz as being the most refined engine in production.
More's the pity that they phased it out, but at least it went out on a high of thorough development and exceptional refinement.
Sometimes you buy a car and when you get it home you wonder if you've done the right thing, but when I brought my Daimler home I knew it was the right thing to do, and the ownership experience just grows every day, with no regrets whatsoever.
I find driving the car an occasion, not just a drive, and she gets polished, cleaned, vacuumed, kept under cover from marauding elements, and generally pampered in a way I've never done to my other cars.
To sum up, I can heartily recommend the V12 X300-they're 'complete' cars in every way, and I realised a long-term wish I've always harboured to own/drive a graceful V12-engined car, and they don't come any better than the X300 in terms of looks & driveability and value & reliability.
There were hardly any available when I bought mine in April this year, but it just goes to show that the savage depreciation of these luxury liners means that they're so inedpensive to buy now that it'd almost be rude not to aquire one...
CML-funny you should mention the Spitfire analogy, as I think exactly the same thing when driving my Daimler Double Six. The long nose, V12 engine and graceful classic lines could be written about the Spitfire as much as the V12 X300, and then there's the majestic roar of the V12 as you power down the motorway/runway.
The X300's in general make great used buys and the V12's are unique in being such a rarity.
The Jaguar V12 is one of the world's great engines, outranking BMW's 'clinical' 5 litre V12 offering in 1989, and even earning acknowledgement from engineers of the mighty Mercedes Benz as being the most refined engine in production.
More's the pity that they phased it out, but at least it went out on a high of thorough development and exceptional refinement.
Sometimes you buy a car and when you get it home you wonder if you've done the right thing, but when I brought my Daimler home I knew it was the right thing to do, and the ownership experience just grows every day, with no regrets whatsoever.
I find driving the car an occasion, not just a drive, and she gets polished, cleaned, vacuumed, kept under cover from marauding elements, and generally pampered in a way I've never done to my other cars.
To sum up, I can heartily recommend the V12 X300-they're 'complete' cars in every way, and I realised a long-term wish I've always harboured to own/drive a graceful V12-engined car, and they don't come any better than the X300 in terms of looks & driveability and value & reliability.
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