2025 Jaguar 4 door GT

[craigjm]

Yesterday JLR announced a number of things -

The first new Jaguar on the new JEA (Jaguar electric architecture) platform will be a 4 door GT. It will cost “in excess of £100k, be the most powerful Jaguar ever, have a range of over 400 miles and be built in Solihull. Real world testing later in the year. Reveal in 2024 with deliveries starting in 2025. It will be “a copy of nothing” styling wise reprising a William Lyons saying. Gerry McGovern said that similar to how the E-type looked like nothing before it and the XJ-S didn’t look like the E-type that this car would be totally new looking.

The new Jaguar range will have 3 models all built on the same platform that will not be shared with any LR products

They also said the engine plant in Wolverhampton will become a propulsion plant and move to building electric motors etc and that the hale wood plant would be the first plant to become 100% electric production. In addition Castle Bromwich will provide the body pressings securing the use of that site. Also a 15bn investment in the UK in new technologies for future vehicles.

All in all it’s very positive for the UK economy with the investment and growth being UK focused and a commitment to UK manufacturing.

We all know the arguments for and against electrics and Jaguar styling of recent years but let’s celebrate the commitment and wait to see what arrives in terms of the first showings of the new range. It’s good to see the strategy actually moving forward

[AmitG]

I was pleased to see something being announced. Jaguar have been awfully quiet recently and that was leading some people (including me) to think the worst.

I am interested to see how they can fare in the £100k plus market. It's a massive step up from where they are today, but I also think it's the right move for them. They can't compete in the volume market any more, they missed the boat on that one. They can be a convincing luxury brand. Selling a smaller number of cars with higher margins and rebuilding customer loyalty is probably the way to go.

And I think that a 4-door all-electric GT is a good "first car" for the relaunch. I suspect that Gerry is hyping up the "copy of nothing" thing; I remember Ian Callum saying the same thing when the XF was first announced. I suspect that it will be more of a "copy of everything", and I am mentally prepared for something that looks very Taycan-like. But let's see.

Critical IMHO is whether they get the quality and service right. Modern JLR products have a pretty bad reputation for quality and reliability. I had my heart set on a petrol XF but the stories of breakdowns, quality problems and shoddy dealer service put me right off. I consider myself to be an easy going customer but my local dealer was so bad that I crossed Jaguar off my list. If you are spending £100k on a car you expect excellent service. If they don't improve that, they are toast.

I just hope they can pull it off. I am still a Jaguar fan (owned 3 XJs and spent a fortune with them) but it has been very hard over the last few years, especially since they canned the new XJ.

[craigjm]

Wouldn’t it be funny if the four door GT was just the canned XJ updated

[Simpo Two]

craigjm said:

Wouldn’t it be funny if the four door GT was just the canned XJ updated

We have a winner...

[fatboy b]

Jaguar is officially fked. The images of what they’re giving us, for the price they’re charging, is not sustainable in their dealer network of poor customer service.

[tberg]

AmitG,
My 2010 XKR passed 199,000 miles on her last week, and still remains the most reliable car I've ever owned in 55 years of driving. It is still my daily driver because I have a hard time imagining what I could get that I could possibly enjoy as much, Although the "reputation" is there about shoddy reliability, the truth is a different story. As for the Jaguar announcements, whereas I hope they're true as I think it would be a shame and a great loss to the automotive community to lose a historic, innovative brand like Jaguar, I must say I'm highly pessimistic. Cars that would be released for 2025 in the third quarter of 2024 would already be in testing at this point and would have had some sightings in the public and the automotive press. There has been nothing! Not a sketch, not a rendering, nothing!!! And Jaguar is in the process in the U.S. (at least) of closing dealerships all over the country. I hope I'm wrong, but I think the future is dim for Jaguar..

[AmitG]

tberg said:

AmitG,
My 2010 XKR passed 199,000 miles on her last week, and still remains the most reliable car I've ever owned in 55 years of driving. It is still my daily driver because I have a hard time imagining what I could get that I could possibly enjoy as much, Although the "reputation" is there about shoddy reliability, the truth is a different story. As for the Jaguar announcements, whereas I hope they're true as I think it would be a shame and a great loss to the automotive community to lose a historic, innovative brand like Jaguar, I must say I'm highly pessimistic. Cars that would be released for 2025 in the third quarter of 2024 would already be in testing at this point and would have had some sightings in the public and the automotive press. There has been nothing! Not a sketch, not a rendering, nothing!!! And Jaguar is in the process in the U.S. (at least) of closing dealerships all over the country. I hope I'm wrong, but I think the future is dim for Jaguar..

I hear you. At various times I had a Daimler XJ40, two X308s (one Daimler one Jaguar) and an X350, and I very nearly bought a Series 3 Double Six. I also came very close to buying a DS420, but when I got there I realised how big it is

The pre-Ingenium stuff was great. Yes there were reliability issues, but the driving experience was unmatched and the dealers were nice. Old fashioned in a good way. There was a great network of specialists, you could get almost anything done.

Things have changed now. Engine wise the V8 has gone if I am not mistaken. The V6 has also gone I think, and the later ones were a bit of a kludge anyway (my recollection is that while the early V6s were Ford engines and pretty good, the post-Ford ones were actually a V8 block with 2 bores blocked off). The styling is no longer distinctive. They built a new factory for diesel engines when diesel was on the way out. And the reliability of the Ingenium stuff...I just look at the Internet and think, no way. I know that you never hear about the people with no problems etc. but considering the small volumes that they sell, and the vast number of complaints about powertrain and electrical issues, and the articles explaining that these cars have fundamental design issues that Jaguar is not putting right...

Plus the dealers are no longer the people that they used to be. I believe that Jaguar canned a lot of the old family dealers. Now it's all about short term money and glass palaces. The specialists are still there, but again I think that a lot of them have gone.

So I really hope that they succeed, and I think it's doable, but they have a lot to turn around. They have little brand equity left so this GT (will they call it XJ?) will need to be class leading at the outset...

I believe that in Switzerland, Jaguar is now outsold by Ferrari!

[craigjm]

A huge amount of testing now is done on computer simulation and they have been clear stating that has been done and also clear in saying real world testing will start later this year. This is the process they followed with the XJ that got cancelled and it was the simulation testing that identified the issues that led to its cancellation. You don’t need to run cars around covered in boxes and disguise anymore until much later in the testing phases.

[tberg]

The new XJ was cancelled, not because computer testing found problems that couldn't be addressed, it was cancelled because JLR realized the sales potential of a new XJ were limited and the resources needed to produce the new XJ would not have justified the investment. It was a money issue. As for there not being a need for real world driving and testing of new models, that's just not accurate. As a multiple Jaguar enthusiastic owner, I hope you're right, but I don't hold out a lot of hope. The only way for Jaguar to survive is to produce the absolute best in class of each vehicle they bring to market. That way they won't be able to be ignored. So the new 4 door GT that was referenced as the first of the new batch of EV vehicles had better be a Taycan killer in performance, luxury, technology, and design, etc. And the dealer network, if indeed JLR stays with some kind of network structure, had better shape up and offer a better service experience than their reputation has offered in the past.
Today, I attended the Queen's English Car Show in Los Angeles where there were dozens of beautiful examples of historic Jaguars. It would be a shame to have its storied history end. My 2010 XKR with 199,000 miles on her is unquestionably the finest automobile I have ever owned or will have ever owned in my 55 years of driving. Others should have the opportunity to experience their excellence in the future.

[craigjm]

tberg said:

As for there not being a need for real world driving and testing of new models, that's just not accurate.

Who are you suggesting said that and is therefore inaccurate?

[CarlosSainz100]

What were the issues identified in the simulation testing? I'm not doubting what you said in the slightest, I'm just interested. I work for JLR in the supply side and we were looking forward to the XJ model. I had heard that the new old boss canned it because of lack of planned sales.

Jaguar can design a 100k + car all they like, but people still have to want to buy it. Being that they had trouble flogging 40k XE's for various reasons, I just don't see it personally. It's still the same people building them and still the same dealers that you interact with when you buy it and take it in to get looked at when it goes wrong.

[V12 Migaloo]

Jaguar biggest issue isn't style, quality, dealers, model range, it's biggest issue is public perception which is all down to the marketing. Jaguar has non existent marketing, their adverts and logo were everywhere in the 80's, then in the 90's they stopped advertising and haven't resumed since.

[craigjm]

CarlosSainz100 said:

What were the issues identified in the simulation testing? I'm not doubting what you said in the slightest, I'm just interested. I work for JLR in the supply side and we were looking forward to the XJ model. I had heard that the new old boss canned it because of lack of planned sales.

The issues with the XJ were not just sales projection. That is how they styled it out to the public. There were other issues that would have meant the model would have had issues through its cycle. It is for this reason that a number of senior people from the design and engineering side of the company left the company around that time. We may find out what these were specifically in years to come but it’s not something they are keen to put into the public domain. It’s not clear where they were picked up but lots of simulator testing was done as only a couple of full cars were actually ever built and prototypes were not run in the traditional way. That’s all I know from people who were involved at the time. The full size cars they made have been or will be destroyed as part of the write down of assets that was announced at the time

[reddiesel]

fatboy b said:

Jaguar is officially fked. The images of what they’re giving us, for the price they’re charging, is not sustainable in their dealer network of poor customer service.

I should think a cuckoo on the hour popping out from a clock dispenses more intelligence . What image do you think Jaguar should be giving us ? For years we have all had to listen to you on various Forums criticising the traditional styling cues as being " old men and slippers " now we have something modern and you still apparently arent happy ?? You go on to talk about Pricing , almost 85% of all new vehicles are subject to a Leasing Agreement , almost nobody today forks out the purchase price for any new vehicle so how relevant is the Purchase Price ? Its the monthly Leasing Cost most will be concerned by and this clearly will have to be competitive and its my guess it will be .
Poor Customer Service I think varies from Dealer to Dealer , Marshall and Jardine I have found abysmal Guy Salmon (Sytner) less so . Perhaps the proposals to reduce them to 20 sites may improve things .

[craigjm]

reddiesel said:

Perhaps the proposals to reduce them to 20 sites may improve things .

Exactly. I don’t see what the big outcry is about the dealers. The new cars are going to be in Aston and Bentley territory. They have 19 and 23 UK dealers so 20 is about right. Most of the people moaning about dealers are the same people that never have and never would buy a new Jaguar at any price point and call the dealers “stealers” etc etc and them somehow get upset when a company they have customer relationship with doesn’t give a jot what they say.

Edited by craigjm on Sunday 30th April 11:50

[Simpo Two]

craigjm said:

The new cars are going to be in Aston and Bentley territory.

Interesting to see Jaguar trying to climb back up after abandoning their position for mundane models. However, it might just work as prices of new Astons rocket under Stroll's stewardship and leave a gap in the market.

I would love to see Jaguar introduce a 'poor man's Bentley', but where will they get the money from, or the talent to design it?

[reddiesel]

Simpo Two said:

Interesting to see Jaguar trying to climb back up after abandoning their position for mundane models. However, it might just work as prices of new Astons rocket under Stroll's stewardship and leave a gap in the market.

I would love to see Jaguar introduce a 'poor man's Bentley', but where will they get the money from, or the talent to design it?

I think the money is already in place and doubtless will be a mixture of Private and Public Investment . Its the subsequent Investment going forward that I worry about as well as resolving any quality issues that may or may not arise . I dont think the enormity of the task facing Tata should be underestimated , it falls somewhere between the resurrection of the Mini by BMW and someone attempting a relaunch of Rover , fortunately this proposed EV Technology gives them a window of opportunity . If we were continuing in an ICE world you would have to suspect it was game over . I think Tata simply have to fatten the cat up before attracting a possible Sale , when and if that time comes , I would be hoping for Ford or JCB as a future Owner .

[Simpo Two]

As far as I can tell from the internet, Tata also own Range Rover, and that brand is going very well indeed. So they just need to do the same with this big new Jag

[a8hex]

Simpo Two said:

As far as I can tell from the internet, Tata also own Range Rover, and that brand is going very well indeed. So they just need to do the same with this big new Jag

Seems to be what most in the market are after.
When it comes to "Grace, Space, Pace" it is very much a case as Meatloaf sang "Two Out of Three Ain't Bad" but grace is out of favour currently and looking around many new cars in the news these days the word bloated seems to be far more popular than the idea of grace. Then maybe I should get on message and not fat shame cars.

[craigjm]

a8hex said:

Simpo Two said:

As far as I can tell from the internet, Tata also own Range Rover, and that brand is going very well indeed. So they just need to do the same with this big new Jag

Seems to be what most in the market are after.
When it comes to "Grace, Space, Pace" it is very much a case as Meatloaf sang "Two Out of Three Ain't Bad" but grace is out of favour currently and looking around many new cars in the news these days the word bloated seems to be far more popular than the idea of grace. Then maybe I should get on message and not fat shame cars.

It’s a good job the abandoned the GSP slogan in 1968 because quite a few jaguars since were not exactly spacious