RE: Jaguar abandons lightweight chassis
Wednesday 17th August 2005
RD6: S-Type conceptThe next Jaguar S-Type, due in 2008, will not be an all-aluminium car like its XJ sibling. Instead, the chassis will be made of steel for cost reasons, while the body alone will be made from the lighter aluminium. This is bound to knock Jaguar's financial planning, as the cost of tooling up for aluminium-bodied cars was meant also to be amortised across the new S-Type.
Jaguar abandons lightweight chassis
Next S-Type to get steel floorpan
RD6: S-Type concept
Online pictures of the RD-6 concept show it to bear a family resemblance to the existing S-Type while looking more ground-hugging. The two headlamps, separate on the current model, are joined by what looks like a semi-transparent strip. It also features the trendy (but for how much longer?) four-door coupé look, where the rear doors' handles are hidden.
Ford is now positioning Jaguar against Porsche rather than BMW, which means that it's expected to make 100,000 cars a year rather than 200,000. As a more exclusive marque, it means the X-Type will disappear when the model reaches the end of its life, as it's part of the youthful image that Jaguar wanted to acquire through the X-Type and its costly F1 adventure -- but which it has mainly failed to achieve.
Discussion
That's a real mess up by Jag. Light weight is the key to performance cars these days. With the cost of fuel as it is thirsty monsters just simply will not sell.
Lotus have the right idea and they're sitting firmly around the territory where Jaguar are looking to move. I suspect that Porsche will move towards that territory as Jaguar re-position themselves in the fallow land that Porsche have just vacated........
Typical.
Ditching the lightweight chassis is no doubt the first step in a catalogue of errors which will lead to the project failing.
Idiots.
Lotus have the right idea and they're sitting firmly around the territory where Jaguar are looking to move. I suspect that Porsche will move towards that territory as Jaguar re-position themselves in the fallow land that Porsche have just vacated........
Typical.
Ditching the lightweight chassis is no doubt the first step in a catalogue of errors which will lead to the project failing.
Idiots.
Sadly, the cost of developing a full aluminium chassis was just too much for Ford to bankroll. With Ford itself not doing too well at present, it doesn't need to be spending any more than the minimum on its still-loss-making child. Very sad, but not surprising. Let's hope that the steel/aluminium compromise is light enough...and doesn't corrode where the still and aluminum meet...
I currently drive the Mondeo ST TD which shares the same diesel 2.2 as X type and I have to say that the Ford product is massively under rated. It poses a problem for Ford/PAG as the Ford Mondeo is an excellent car for what it is meant to do but badge snobbery prevents a lot of people from considering it whereas pervesly the Jag brand is much stronger, appealing to those after status but the actual product does not do it justice.
I think keeping the volumes low may end up a benifit to owners. But I find it awkard that we will have to wait until the current car is 10 years old until we get a replacement.
Just look at BMW the 3 series is now a better seller than the Mondeo or Vectra - how long are those residual values going to stay high?
Just look at BMW the 3 series is now a better seller than the Mondeo or Vectra - how long are those residual values going to stay high?
Problem with Ford Motor Co is they fight each other off, like the Ford Mondeo *could* have had a much better flagship, say a 4wd 3.0 v6 with the 240bhp 3.0 from the S-Type.
But no, it'd step on the toes of Jags.
Same with Jag stepping on the toes of Aston.
They can't develop long-term models and strategies and build up a confident customer base, when the "idea" of what the marque is changes every 3 years!
Silly Ford Motor Co!
Dave
But no, it'd step on the toes of Jags.
Same with Jag stepping on the toes of Aston.
They can't develop long-term models and strategies and build up a confident customer base, when the "idea" of what the marque is changes every 3 years!
Silly Ford Motor Co!
Dave
What a shame! Wouldn't have been great if Jaguar were to have used something like Lotus' VVA aluminium chassis technology for the XJ S-Type and maybe even a dreaded SUV if the American customers insist!
But what they need to make sure is that it's a design-lead product. Britain can lead the world in so many fields of design including car design, and yet both "mass-market" brands (Jaguar and Rover) continue to make such boring designs for grey haired people!
What does anyone else think?!
But what they need to make sure is that it's a design-lead product. Britain can lead the world in so many fields of design including car design, and yet both "mass-market" brands (Jaguar and Rover) continue to make such boring designs for grey haired people!
What does anyone else think?!
I do feel for Jaguar, they are in a difficult situation. I don't think opting for a steel monocoque is the end of the world, so long as the panels and suspension items are in alu (as in the 5 Series).
However, a more serious problem is one of image. The new S Type has got move away from the over-retro looks of the current S Type.
Jaguar has to produce a seriously good car to compete in a a very competitive market. I see the main competition being Audi, who have done a successful job of improving product perception from what was a very ordinary brand. The 3 Series, inspite of its dynamic superiority, is now a victim of its own success (added to the fact that it just doesn't look special).
Please Jaguar, give us a gorgeous new S Type with huge power.
However, a more serious problem is one of image. The new S Type has got move away from the over-retro looks of the current S Type.
Jaguar has to produce a seriously good car to compete in a a very competitive market. I see the main competition being Audi, who have done a successful job of improving product perception from what was a very ordinary brand. The 3 Series, inspite of its dynamic superiority, is now a victim of its own success (added to the fact that it just doesn't look special).
Please Jaguar, give us a gorgeous new S Type with huge power.
Thank God.
Jaguar, or rather Ford, have seen sense and are ditching the X-Type and with it the idea of competing against mediocre cars such as BMW, Audi and other "Eurotrash"
Why didn't go one step further and ditch the S-Type as well?
>> Edited by xkrman on Wednesday 17th August 12:21
Jaguar, or rather Ford, have seen sense and are ditching the X-Type and with it the idea of competing against mediocre cars such as BMW, Audi and other "Eurotrash"
Why didn't go one step further and ditch the S-Type as well?
>> Edited by xkrman on Wednesday 17th August 12:21
I think that this means we'll see an ally body and steel chassis, which just means that the subframes will be steel rather than ally. We're not talking about a Land Rover style steel ladder frame here, just normal subframes.
The current car is so different from the one that launched in 1999 (no visually, obviously) that it'd be a shame to waste all of that development by replacing it with a brand new platform which may or may not be better.
This is a good move, but poor wording in press releases or media reports could make it sound bad.
>> Edited by DavidCane on Wednesday 17th August 12:28
The current car is so different from the one that launched in 1999 (no visually, obviously) that it'd be a shame to waste all of that development by replacing it with a brand new platform which may or may not be better.
This is a good move, but poor wording in press releases or media reports could make it sound bad.
>> Edited by DavidCane on Wednesday 17th August 12:28
Jaguar are competing against Porsche? Must be some really weird kind of Oligopolistic (non-price) competition as they don't have any competing models! (I'm not sure the XK is quite of the same mould as the 997). Perhaps it's just the directors competing on the golf course...
I think it's a big mistake not pursuing the full aluminium concept, even if the economics might not be favourable at the moment. The new XJ6 is flying off the shelves, because it's a massive car but can show a clean pair of tailpipes to vitually all other saloons whilst returning excellent economy, and that's all down to aluminium construction.
They made a similar key mistake with the X-Type, cutting costs and using the Mundano's platform meant FWD which meant the 3-Series and C-Class boys stayed with the tutonic for their company cars.
A Lotus-esque versatile aluminium platform for the new S-Type would have been transferable to a future X-Type replacement, which would drastically cut the marginal cost of all-aluminium construction and given Merc and BMW a real shock.
I think it's a big mistake not pursuing the full aluminium concept, even if the economics might not be favourable at the moment. The new XJ6 is flying off the shelves, because it's a massive car but can show a clean pair of tailpipes to vitually all other saloons whilst returning excellent economy, and that's all down to aluminium construction.
They made a similar key mistake with the X-Type, cutting costs and using the Mundano's platform meant FWD which meant the 3-Series and C-Class boys stayed with the tutonic for their company cars.
A Lotus-esque versatile aluminium platform for the new S-Type would have been transferable to a future X-Type replacement, which would drastically cut the marginal cost of all-aluminium construction and given Merc and BMW a real shock.
Am confused here (& admittedly not for the first time).
Whilst a small company like Lotus can develop, manufacture & turn a healthy profit from an aluminium chassis with the Elise, FOMOCo, worth ££billions, cant do the same with Jaguar.
Whilst appreciating the difficulties in scale between the relative numbers that Jaguar & Lotus expect to sell of such vehicles, I would have anticipated that the greater number of chassis that Jaguar would manufacture & sell in the first instance, would if anything, tip the econmies of scale in Jaguars favour ?
Whilst a small company like Lotus can develop, manufacture & turn a healthy profit from an aluminium chassis with the Elise, FOMOCo, worth ££billions, cant do the same with Jaguar.
Whilst appreciating the difficulties in scale between the relative numbers that Jaguar & Lotus expect to sell of such vehicles, I would have anticipated that the greater number of chassis that Jaguar would manufacture & sell in the first instance, would if anything, tip the econmies of scale in Jaguars favour ?
Well, the next nail in the coffin for Jag. A real shame, in this day and age with fuel prices not going to ever drop back down again, the Yanks will soon be crying out for light, fuel efficient cars. (I wish the US Govt would put a 50% tax on petrol over there. Would extend the worlds resources and save the planet at the same time.)
C'mon Jag sic. Ford, you gotta spend money to make money!
G
C'mon Jag sic. Ford, you gotta spend money to make money!
G
MILF said:
Am confused here (& admittedly not for the first time).
Whilst a small company like Lotus can develop, manufacture & turn a healthy profit from an aluminium chassis with the Elise, FOMOCo, worth ££billions, cant do the same with Jaguar.
Few things:-
1) Have you seen the build quality and overall engineering on an Elise?!? It also uses borrowed engines (generally very £££ to develop)
2) Jaguar are saddled with Ford operating procedures...better suited to a 1,000,000 unit company than a 100,000 unit company...hence it is very inefficient.
3) Jaguar are saddled with too many manufacturing plants - when the Escort finished prod'n Ford pushed Jag into taking Halewood and making a car off the Mondeo platform as that's what they wanted - Jag had sufficient capacity between Browns Lane and Castle Brom, but Ford had a new and very expensive factory sitting there, and didn't want to pay the redundancy
4) Jag's recently have been forecast on much higher volumes than they've achieved, hence the pricing has been all-wrong and they've massively under-repaid the investment in most of the recent models...combination of Marketing telling directors what they wanted to hear and Design making something the directors' liked but no-one else did.
As for the pic...it was a concept car only...although the new S-Type is likely to bear a passing resemblance, although much bigger.
As to the article...I think it's a shame it's being based off the old chassis with a new body, but the post saying about Ford's pockets was absolutely right...Ford are tightening every belt possible, including the one which seems to be cutting off the blood supply to the brain!!!
Pesmo said:
Drove a diesel X type recently, I didn't think it was a good as a Mondeo diesel that I often drive. It had less room didn't ride as well, seemed noisier, but admittedly it looks better from the outside. The Mondy is as much an underrated car as the X-type is an overhyped one.
i agree 100% i drove my uncles 2.5 x-type, i was so unimpressed with the car that i apart from the AWD i couldn't really think of why anyone would buy one.
the build quality wasn't any bettter than my mondeo, the ride was better at 5-10mph but the mondeo was better as the speed rised. and steering is way nicer in the mondeo (better weighted), mondeo handled better as well.
the x-type could really do with a 6sp gearbox (box from the ST220 has got a nice set of ratios), and slightly more power, give the 2.5 210bhp and 3.0 250bhp, give the interior a slightly more modern look as well.. alu bonnet, front wings and boot lid, smooth over the bumpers like in the S-type. that would make for a nicer x-type and maybe jag might be able to sell a few.
Does Ford plan to make S-type as the other hopeless contender as what they do now, or trying to duplicate the mistake they made on X type? My family used to have 2 XJ back to early 90s, but we decided to move to MB and BMW decade after, thanks Ford for its cost saving strategy, their bean counter ruin the brand completely.
I'll agree it's a shame that the next S-type will be based on a steel chassis - Jagaur could have develped a new brand philosophy by having an all-alluminium product range. That their mainstream car will remain mainstream is I believe a way of throwing away any opportunity to further gravitate new customers to the brand. They won't be able to differentiate themselves much from the competition. Just another luxury saloon in a crowded market.
But what I question most is Jagaur being positioned as a direct competitor to Porsche. Surely we have two different demographics here? I couldn't afford to buy a car from either manufacturer (I'm a pov uni student), but I'd buy a Porsche for an entirely different reason than I would a Jag. To convince buyers that a Jaguar was competitive with a Porsche - whether it is or not - Jaguar would have to somehow shift existing brand perceptions. And not using lightweight componentry in it's models (XJ and next XK excepted) makes that an even larger hurdle.
So don't be stupid Ford. Jaguar is a relatively small scale player in the luxury car market - small enough to be put in a niche position by creating a unique brand philosophy. Focus on lightweight, keep volumes low, develop higher perceptions of the mark (think of the following lotus and, to a lesser extent, TVR have) but remain in the current sector instead of chasing an even smaller (and more unlikely market). Jaguar is always going to be outsold and have less marked presense than BMW and Mercedes. Better to remain a unique and worthy alternative than to chase volume with an uncompetitive product.
Ali
But what I question most is Jagaur being positioned as a direct competitor to Porsche. Surely we have two different demographics here? I couldn't afford to buy a car from either manufacturer (I'm a pov uni student), but I'd buy a Porsche for an entirely different reason than I would a Jag. To convince buyers that a Jaguar was competitive with a Porsche - whether it is or not - Jaguar would have to somehow shift existing brand perceptions. And not using lightweight componentry in it's models (XJ and next XK excepted) makes that an even larger hurdle.
So don't be stupid Ford. Jaguar is a relatively small scale player in the luxury car market - small enough to be put in a niche position by creating a unique brand philosophy. Focus on lightweight, keep volumes low, develop higher perceptions of the mark (think of the following lotus and, to a lesser extent, TVR have) but remain in the current sector instead of chasing an even smaller (and more unlikely market). Jaguar is always going to be outsold and have less marked presense than BMW and Mercedes. Better to remain a unique and worthy alternative than to chase volume with an uncompetitive product.
Ali
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