Could these X-type designs have worked?
Discussion
Many people think the X-type was designed to look like a shrunken XJ when it was actually designed to look like a saloon XK8. That was until Ford insisted on an XJ face and put a spanner in the works. amongst the designs created was one with an XK face, with an XJ face and they also proposed a coupe. What do you think vs what we got?
The coupe got as far as a full size clay
The coupe got as far as a full size clay
I think one of the major problems after Ford buying the Company was how did they move Jaguar forward whilst still retaining the cornerstones that make a Jaguar a Jaguar . With hindsight , did they pay too much attention to this question ? I think they probably did . Tata for example apart from one exception the F Type have largely ignored this aspect and we are left with a Range of cars that quite frankly could be badged as anything . The introduction of the X Type I remember well , I was invited up to Jaguar Milton Keynes for the launch and even then I knew it was never going to steal sales from the 3 Series BMW . I thought this for two reasons . Firstly for a brand new model it already looked too retro and dated . I immediately thought mini limousine and was reminded of the old Austin Vanden Plas , the car was in danger of becoming little more than a curiosity and as for attracting sales from BMW , everyone there that evening was just as sceptical as I was . The second reason I thought it would struggle was the Engine options , a 3.0 V6 and a 2.5 V6 , it badly wanted a Diesel option and this followed sometime after . A few firsts for the car , first Jaguar built outside the West Midlands , first of the AWD Jaguars (I think I am right when I say it wasnt 4 WD ) ? First Jaguar to enter this sector of the marketplace .
Retrospectively I think the X Type ended up to be a fine car but I would argue that it was improved far too late in the Model Cycle and Peoples opinions were already formed . The German opposition it seems , update Models far more regularly and by the time the X Type was improved to what it should have been initially the game had moved on and Tarquin and Lucy were looking elsewhere .
I particularly like the Coupe in your illustrations Craig , certainly on the launch night those would be the keys I would be grabbing .
Retrospectively I think the X Type ended up to be a fine car but I would argue that it was improved far too late in the Model Cycle and Peoples opinions were already formed . The German opposition it seems , update Models far more regularly and by the time the X Type was improved to what it should have been initially the game had moved on and Tarquin and Lucy were looking elsewhere .
I particularly like the Coupe in your illustrations Craig , certainly on the launch night those would be the keys I would be grabbing .
It was another example of funding being short which has dogged Jaguar even since the business began. The money for a coupe and an SVO model which are the sort of things the young buyers Woolf have bought, was cut and diverted to the development of the XJ Diesel engine. Probably the right thing to do at the time but it contributed to the fact that the X-type only sold half of its projected target and never made a profit other than in the first year of sale.
[quote=craigjm]It was another example of funding being short which has dogged Jaguar even since the business began. The money for a coupe and an SVO model which are the sort of things the young buyers Woolf have bought, was cut and diverted to the development of the XJ Diesel engine. Probably the right thing to do at the time but it contributed to the fact that the X-type only sold half of its projected target and never made a profit other than in the first year of sale.
To be honest Craig I think the Design is all wrong and with a couple of exceptions has been for sometime . I totally agree about Coupes , some of the Mercedes AMG models have a beautiful muscular stance and thats where the XK successor should have been pitched . Instead we have it seems become a shopping trolley manufacturer adept at competitive Leasing Deals . SV products I remain on the fence about where the F Type and XE are concerned . The XE version , a Model of a Car that few People want is for me completely pointless . The F Type SVR , I wonder about the sanity of anyone going from a V8 R where its already impossible to utilise 2/3 of its capabilities to a " Hotter " version . Apart from the Phychological benefit to my manhood why would I do that ? Like the V8 R its just as compromised a machine . Both of these aforementioned Models answer a question few People are asking . The F Pace SVR and the RR SVR I completely get and understand both are in a different marketplace and both are versions of Models that People are buying .
To be honest Craig I think the Design is all wrong and with a couple of exceptions has been for sometime . I totally agree about Coupes , some of the Mercedes AMG models have a beautiful muscular stance and thats where the XK successor should have been pitched . Instead we have it seems become a shopping trolley manufacturer adept at competitive Leasing Deals . SV products I remain on the fence about where the F Type and XE are concerned . The XE version , a Model of a Car that few People want is for me completely pointless . The F Type SVR , I wonder about the sanity of anyone going from a V8 R where its already impossible to utilise 2/3 of its capabilities to a " Hotter " version . Apart from the Phychological benefit to my manhood why would I do that ? Like the V8 R its just as compromised a machine . Both of these aforementioned Models answer a question few People are asking . The F Pace SVR and the RR SVR I completely get and understand both are in a different marketplace and both are versions of Models that People are buying .
I like the top one.
But the concept I'd have bought is the R-Coupe: https://www.jaguarheritage.com/car/2001-jaguar-r-c...
But they chickened out and the S-Type became the XF. Jaguar has a history of fabulous concepts which never make it.
But the concept I'd have bought is the R-Coupe: https://www.jaguarheritage.com/car/2001-jaguar-r-c...
But they chickened out and the S-Type became the XF. Jaguar has a history of fabulous concepts which never make it.
Simpo Two said:
I like the top one.
But the concept I'd have bought is the R-Coupe: https://www.jaguarheritage.com/car/2001-jaguar-r-c...
But they chickened out and the S-Type became the XF. Jaguar has a history of fabulous concepts which never make it.
The R coupe was never intended ever to be a production car. It was a styling exercise to test elements that would eventually or not make it on to the XF. Same with the RD6. If that had been progressed they would have had a 1 series / A class hatch competitor that would have really bought in the younger people leasing cars. The job of Jaguar designer is ultimately a frustrating one I guess But the concept I'd have bought is the R-Coupe: https://www.jaguarheritage.com/car/2001-jaguar-r-c...
But they chickened out and the S-Type became the XF. Jaguar has a history of fabulous concepts which never make it.
I think that phase of retro designs that gave us the X and S type and also the fiat 500, MINI, Rover 75, Beetle etc was ultimately a mistake although I think it was more successful on the small city cars. I have never understood why anyone would want to drive a car that looks like something their grandad drove but in the modern day. If you want to do that then buy the classic. I do wonder what Jaguar would have been like now it Ford had done what Tata did and set a new vision. After all Lyon’s wasn’t building cars in the 70s that looked like Swallows or a MK4. Look at the XJS though, was widely hated when launched but now people seem to love it. Recent XJ the same. Such a problem for a car company if your customer base are slow to change because that means you have a great used following at 10+ years which you don’t benefit from and on the flip side you don’t sell enough of them new. Always strikes me as funny that you get that a lot less with the Germans. Bangles BMWs were a massive break from previous but still sold in massive numbers even though some like the 7 was very challenging looks wise.
reddiesel said:
What about the S Type and its relevance to Jaguar Design . Isnt it a fact that all Retro Design apeing earlier successes ends in a dead end . Could we call the Mini a retro design ?
I think it was a brilliant example of retro design (though sadly has lost the plot with each iteration as it grows bigger and uglier). The Fiat 500 has done rather well too.Design and evolution have to go somewhere. What we have now is convergent evolution. When every car is identifiable only by the badge, maybe it's time to try divergent evolution. But now that aerodynamics and engines are perfected by computers, designers seem more interested in the 'infotainment system' than the actual car. And maybe customers are too, the first question being I fear 'Has it got Apple Car Play'? Which to me is like buying a house because it has a Fisher-Price Activity Centre. Increasingly cars seem to be just nondescript lumps you rent through a website
2nd concept looks like a Chrysler Neon
It was always going to be a tough market. Jaguar went into a gun fight with a knife.
Audi A4, Audi really starting to make an impression,aspirational quality product
Mercedes coming back with better quality,less rust getting their act together again, C class was a good car.
BMW who had really blown everyone away with the E30 and E36 doing it again with the E46
Volvo had finally put some interest into their cars with the 850
If you wanted a leftfield choice there was a Saab
Jaguar arrived to the party with a car that did nothing to change the old man image of the marque, with large capacity petrol engines coupled to a 4wd system nobody needed in a saloon, just as the market was heading the other way. It was the begining of the twenty first century,people wanted contemporary looking cars, not cars that looked like the pub landlord drove in the 80s
If I had to choose one, it would be the estate with a diesel engine.
Road tax hasnt been kind to second hand ones either. Most post 2006 petrols are £585 RFL and sit about on Autotrader for months.
It was always going to be a tough market. Jaguar went into a gun fight with a knife.
Audi A4, Audi really starting to make an impression,aspirational quality product
Mercedes coming back with better quality,less rust getting their act together again, C class was a good car.
BMW who had really blown everyone away with the E30 and E36 doing it again with the E46
Volvo had finally put some interest into their cars with the 850
If you wanted a leftfield choice there was a Saab
Jaguar arrived to the party with a car that did nothing to change the old man image of the marque, with large capacity petrol engines coupled to a 4wd system nobody needed in a saloon, just as the market was heading the other way. It was the begining of the twenty first century,people wanted contemporary looking cars, not cars that looked like the pub landlord drove in the 80s
If I had to choose one, it would be the estate with a diesel engine.
Road tax hasnt been kind to second hand ones either. Most post 2006 petrols are £585 RFL and sit about on Autotrader for months.
Edited by bristolracer on Sunday 6th February 12:08
Simpo Two said:
I think it was a brilliant example of retro design (though sadly has lost the plot with each iteration as it grows bigger and uglier). The Fiat 500 has done rather well too.
Design and evolution have to go somewhere. What we have now is convergent evolution. When every car is identifiable only by the badge, maybe it's time to try divergent evolution. But now that aerodynamics and engines are perfected by computers, designers seem more interested in the 'infotainment system' than the actual car. And maybe customers are too, the first question being I fear 'Has it got Apple Car Play'? Which to me is like buying a house because it has a Fisher-Price Activity Centre. Increasingly cars seem to be just nondescript lumps you rent through a website
A character free zone in other words Simpo . I wonder how you build character into an EV ? Design and evolution have to go somewhere. What we have now is convergent evolution. When every car is identifiable only by the badge, maybe it's time to try divergent evolution. But now that aerodynamics and engines are perfected by computers, designers seem more interested in the 'infotainment system' than the actual car. And maybe customers are too, the first question being I fear 'Has it got Apple Car Play'? Which to me is like buying a house because it has a Fisher-Price Activity Centre. Increasingly cars seem to be just nondescript lumps you rent through a website
reddiesel said:
Simpo Two said:
I think it was a brilliant example of retro design (though sadly has lost the plot with each iteration as it grows bigger and uglier). The Fiat 500 has done rather well too.
Design and evolution have to go somewhere. What we have now is convergent evolution. When every car is identifiable only by the badge, maybe it's time to try divergent evolution. But now that aerodynamics and engines are perfected by computers, designers seem more interested in the 'infotainment system' than the actual car. And maybe customers are too, the first question being I fear 'Has it got Apple Car Play'? Which to me is like buying a house because it has a Fisher-Price Activity Centre. Increasingly cars seem to be just nondescript lumps you rent through a website
A character free zone in other words Simpo . I wonder how you build character into an EV ? Design and evolution have to go somewhere. What we have now is convergent evolution. When every car is identifiable only by the badge, maybe it's time to try divergent evolution. But now that aerodynamics and engines are perfected by computers, designers seem more interested in the 'infotainment system' than the actual car. And maybe customers are too, the first question being I fear 'Has it got Apple Car Play'? Which to me is like buying a house because it has a Fisher-Price Activity Centre. Increasingly cars seem to be just nondescript lumps you rent through a website
craigjm said:
I suspect, though I may be wrong, that Simple and Reddiesel are well into their 50s. Sorry if I have offended you there. The statement about apple car play shows that yes it is something that young people want and older people less so and this is part of Jaguars problem. You can’t sell a car these days without all that and it’s generally the big flagships that introduced it in the past. I guess we kind of have to accept that what attracted us to cars is no longer relevant to the younger crowd. Their expectations are higher. They pass their test and rather than buy a £500 old fiesta like me and my friends did in the early 90s they take out a lease on a new city car like a 500 or Up and they expect everything to work, to integrate their socials, music, phone and all that and it’s just their life on wheels. I was 27 when I bought my first brand new car but these days why not have one from the start of your driving career with a monthly. Electric cars are only going to make that situation worse as they load with tech and when we talk about character what do we actually mean? I think if you explained it to a new young driver their response back would say…. “Oh you mean faults and unreliability”
I absolutely concur with all that you say , Apple Car Play I have on the F type and freely admit to never using it . I totally understand that Peoples interpretation of the Jaguar Brand and its associated Heritage will alter and dim with time and I have no issue with that . My concern is that for me a Jaguar by its very name should look a certain way . It should be shapely and muscular in design , it should be lithe and indeed Jaguar like in its execution . I believe that these qualities are universally admired and are fundamental cornerstones of the Brand . The Brand has completely lost what made it special as it attempts to corner the Shopping Trolley Market . Ultimately it comes down to Investment in the Product and sadly Jaguar has more often than not been in a state of perpetual near Bankruptcy . Some will argue that Jaguar traditionally inhabited a niche marketplace and has simply had to adapt to what the customer wants . My reply is that there is still clearly a Customer for a sexy Couple like the X150 , Mercedes apparently cant sell enough of them . Again we inevitably come back to lack of Investment and Economies of a Scale which is beyond Jaguar . Simpo Two said:
But the concept I'd have bought is the R-Coupe: https://www.jaguarheritage.com/car/2001-jaguar-r-c...
craigjm said:
I suspect, though I may be wrong, that Simple and Reddiesel are well into their 50s. Sorry if I have offended you there.
I'm not offended by being called over 50 but I am offended by being called simple. Shall we put that down to autocorrect?Re Bentley, yes indeed but too big and 'loadsamoney' for everyday. The Aston is sufficient
Simpo Two said:
craigjm said:
I suspect, though I may be wrong, that Simple and Reddiesel are well into their 50s. Sorry if I have offended you there.
I'm not offended by being called over 50 but I am offended by being called simple. Shall we put that down to autocorrect?Re Bentley, yes indeed but too big and 'loadsamoney' for everyday. The Aston is sufficient
yes damn autocorrect! That is one technical “advance” I can do without! Sorry!! I was chatting Jags to a former Ford colleague about x-types recently. A supercharged version was being developed but issues were had with the drive train not being strong enough. In the end that project was canned and the new s-type r had electronic devices to restrict full power output into the drive train. So the engine produced 400ps but in reality it never uses that potential. Still a quick car but could’ve been better if a stronger rear diff was used.
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