Jaguar to go all electric
Discussion
What is with Jaguar just now? There is no current XK and little prospect of one. They are committed to all EV by 2025. Its great to be at the cutting edge but you have to make cars people want and I think they are losing sight of that.
The latest XF is a visual disappointment, the XE is a good car but not distinctive enough, the F Type was never a 911 competitor. It is too expensive, too small, too heavy and lacks luggage space (the previous XK was a better 911 competitor) and the XJ as a shape just doesn’t work at all, it never did, in no way a successor to the 1968 original or the X300 or X350. The SUV’s look and feel the part and should outsell the BMW equivalents but don’t. Sales are still well below where they should be.You cannot walk into a Jaguar showroom and feel excited - and that is wrong.
It’s fine selling electric E Types for 300k but that isn’t a large scale business model. People in large numbers, imho are not going to pay fortunes for a car just because it’s electric.
Could it be build quality which does not come up to German standards? Could the disastrous residuals on the XJ be reflecting on the whole brand? Is it cause or effect of the lack of really good contract hire or 0% finance deals until very recently on Jaguars, though Audi, Merc and BMW do them continuously? Is the whole range a bit lacklustre? What guarantee is there that going all electric is going to make any difference?
My own view FWIW is that Ian Callum has led them up a blind alley, and the product range is wrong. They need a compact sports saloon (not two very similar), a grand sports saloon (grace space and pace not a huge dustbin), a beautiful sports/GT (not a TR6 wannabe that bigger guys can't get into) and an SUV, maybe two, and they need to build them to Porsche standards. On electrics, I have to be convinced that a Jag you can't hear is going to be appealing. What's wrong with a hybrid approach that allows you to switch to limited electric running in town centres, and cylinder shut off / torque supplement to give you 150mpg which is as good as zero mpg in the real world.
Where has the vision gone?
The latest XF is a visual disappointment, the XE is a good car but not distinctive enough, the F Type was never a 911 competitor. It is too expensive, too small, too heavy and lacks luggage space (the previous XK was a better 911 competitor) and the XJ as a shape just doesn’t work at all, it never did, in no way a successor to the 1968 original or the X300 or X350. The SUV’s look and feel the part and should outsell the BMW equivalents but don’t. Sales are still well below where they should be.You cannot walk into a Jaguar showroom and feel excited - and that is wrong.
It’s fine selling electric E Types for 300k but that isn’t a large scale business model. People in large numbers, imho are not going to pay fortunes for a car just because it’s electric.
Could it be build quality which does not come up to German standards? Could the disastrous residuals on the XJ be reflecting on the whole brand? Is it cause or effect of the lack of really good contract hire or 0% finance deals until very recently on Jaguars, though Audi, Merc and BMW do them continuously? Is the whole range a bit lacklustre? What guarantee is there that going all electric is going to make any difference?
My own view FWIW is that Ian Callum has led them up a blind alley, and the product range is wrong. They need a compact sports saloon (not two very similar), a grand sports saloon (grace space and pace not a huge dustbin), a beautiful sports/GT (not a TR6 wannabe that bigger guys can't get into) and an SUV, maybe two, and they need to build them to Porsche standards. On electrics, I have to be convinced that a Jag you can't hear is going to be appealing. What's wrong with a hybrid approach that allows you to switch to limited electric running in town centres, and cylinder shut off / torque supplement to give you 150mpg which is as good as zero mpg in the real world.
Where has the vision gone?
Edited by cardigankid on Wednesday 3rd October 17:50
The next, related, problem is this. JLR is not a UK owned company. It manufactures in Austria and China and shortly also in the Czech Republic. The UK will leave the EU and JLR will kiss the UK goodbye, then they will design and build cars they can sell, somewhere else.
Edited by cardigankid on Wednesday 3rd October 18:11
“The latest XF is a visual disappointment, the XE is a good car but not distinctive enough”,
A little contradictory seeing how similar the two models are.
Many think the XF/E are visually nicer than their German competitors too, though I appreciate you haven’t said anything to the contrary.
As for what people want, the F-Pace outsells the XF and XE in Europe at least. In 2017 almost as many F-Pace were sold as XF and E together.
So with the i-Pace maybe they are building what people want?
For me their biggest problem will come if they can’t build EVs with a decent range at similar price to their equivalent ICE cars. The lack of noise doesn’t much concern me, I like quiet, but I’m not going to pay a 50% or greater premium to go green. (This for all brands, of course).
A little contradictory seeing how similar the two models are.
Many think the XF/E are visually nicer than their German competitors too, though I appreciate you haven’t said anything to the contrary.
As for what people want, the F-Pace outsells the XF and XE in Europe at least. In 2017 almost as many F-Pace were sold as XF and E together.
So with the i-Pace maybe they are building what people want?
For me their biggest problem will come if they can’t build EVs with a decent range at similar price to their equivalent ICE cars. The lack of noise doesn’t much concern me, I like quiet, but I’m not going to pay a 50% or greater premium to go green. (This for all brands, of course).
Jaguar has lost the plot. Always playing second fiddle to BMW, Merc and Audi (because they threw away the things that made them different) they should have started a new brand for electric cars. Like Toyota and Lexus, so the values of one brand don't mess up the values of the other.
But Jaguar isn't Jaguar any more, it's a foreign maker of cars that look like all the other cars that just happens to have a leaper stuck sideways on the boot.
How the arse of the so-called XJ has survived, let alone was conceived, baffles me. The brief must have been 'Design the most ugly f
king back end you can'. One of the most beautiful cars had been replaced by one of the ugliest. Well not quite as ugly as a Nissan Juke.
But Jaguar isn't Jaguar any more, it's a foreign maker of cars that look like all the other cars that just happens to have a leaper stuck sideways on the boot.
How the arse of the so-called XJ has survived, let alone was conceived, baffles me. The brief must have been 'Design the most ugly f
king back end you can'. One of the most beautiful cars had been replaced by one of the ugliest. Well not quite as ugly as a Nissan Juke.Jaguar is a mess, but no one appears to be listening.
I have tried twice recently to buy a new Jag for a sensible price, but nope is the answer. I have no idea how Jaguar are selling any cars....
Run out XE-S, RRP £55k, best I could get was 12% discount on a car that lost 50% the moment it was registered.
New F-Type R AWD. £100k list, 10% off, no finance deposit allowance, worth <£70k the moment it is registered, because I also looked at a Dealer demo F-Type R AWD (19miles on clock) £75k, but offered me significantly less for my pert-ex, than their own valuation department said it was worth. Eh?
F-Type SVR 2017MY dealer stock for almost a year. Total amount payable on a PCP over 3 years was £80,000, £80k!!!!!! WTF....
Given up! Back to Porsche.....
I have tried twice recently to buy a new Jag for a sensible price, but nope is the answer. I have no idea how Jaguar are selling any cars....
Run out XE-S, RRP £55k, best I could get was 12% discount on a car that lost 50% the moment it was registered.
New F-Type R AWD. £100k list, 10% off, no finance deposit allowance, worth <£70k the moment it is registered, because I also looked at a Dealer demo F-Type R AWD (19miles on clock) £75k, but offered me significantly less for my pert-ex, than their own valuation department said it was worth. Eh?
F-Type SVR 2017MY dealer stock for almost a year. Total amount payable on a PCP over 3 years was £80,000, £80k!!!!!! WTF....
Given up! Back to Porsche.....
When I walked into a Jaguar showroom to look at and then buy my first new XFS in 2012, I stopped as I walked in and thought ‘wow, what a special place’.
I took my now XFR-S in for a service in Oxford on Monday, and f-type aside, it was like walking into a Mercedes/Audi/BMW* blando showroom. Probably the first time I just sat there and never bothered having a look around while I waited. Sad days.
* delete as appropriate.
I took my now XFR-S in for a service in Oxford on Monday, and f-type aside, it was like walking into a Mercedes/Audi/BMW* blando showroom. Probably the first time I just sat there and never bothered having a look around while I waited. Sad days.
* delete as appropriate.
Triple7 said:
offered me significantly less for my pert-ex
I might offer you more for your pert ex 
Triple7 said:
Given up! Back to Porsche...
Until last month I disregarded Porsche as 'ass-engined Nazi slot-cars'. Then I stumbled on the Panamera... ooh actually I like that... and a brand that is actually identifiable - imagine that!If you can't beat 'em join 'em.
Some interesting views.
My experience is different.
When looking for a replacement for my 4yo F10 530d I had such a poor experience with BMW, trying to buy a 540i G30, that I drifted into the local Jaguar dealer.
My experience there was fine, test drives that weren’t available at BMW were at Jaguar.
The biggest surprise was that the XF I tried was in rode and handled so much better than the F10 or the G30 520d that I later did manage to drive.
I’ve driven a couple of G30s since but that’s just confirmed my opinion that the XF is better dynamically. The interior isn’t so detailed but whether that makes it worse or just less fussy is a matter of opinion.
After 10,000 miles I’ve had 1 minor issue of a spurious warning. Nothing’s fallen off; nothing rattles.
My perception is that the F10 was a somehow more solidly built car but after a spirited drive across the Cotswolds last week in ‘sport’ I realise there’s nothing to persuade me to go back to the Germans.
As for a lack of excitement when entering the showroom; well I’m long past getting ‘excited’ by the prospect of a new car and find the simplicity of the Jaguar range a pleasant change to BMWs 1,2,3,4,5,6,7, series, coupes, saloons, GTs etc huge range of the same thing in different sizes.
Each to their own.
My experience is different.
When looking for a replacement for my 4yo F10 530d I had such a poor experience with BMW, trying to buy a 540i G30, that I drifted into the local Jaguar dealer.
My experience there was fine, test drives that weren’t available at BMW were at Jaguar.
The biggest surprise was that the XF I tried was in rode and handled so much better than the F10 or the G30 520d that I later did manage to drive.
I’ve driven a couple of G30s since but that’s just confirmed my opinion that the XF is better dynamically. The interior isn’t so detailed but whether that makes it worse or just less fussy is a matter of opinion.
After 10,000 miles I’ve had 1 minor issue of a spurious warning. Nothing’s fallen off; nothing rattles.
My perception is that the F10 was a somehow more solidly built car but after a spirited drive across the Cotswolds last week in ‘sport’ I realise there’s nothing to persuade me to go back to the Germans.
As for a lack of excitement when entering the showroom; well I’m long past getting ‘excited’ by the prospect of a new car and find the simplicity of the Jaguar range a pleasant change to BMWs 1,2,3,4,5,6,7, series, coupes, saloons, GTs etc huge range of the same thing in different sizes.
Each to their own.
REALIST123 said:
Some interesting views.
My experience is different.
When looking for a replacement for my 4yo F10 530d I had such a poor experience with BMW, trying to buy a 540i G30, that I drifted into the local Jaguar dealer.
My experience there was fine, test drives that weren’t available at BMW were at Jaguar.
The biggest surprise was that the XF I tried was in rode and handled so much better than the F10 or the G30 520d that I later did manage to drive.
I’ve driven a couple of G30s since but that’s just confirmed my opinion that the XF is better dynamically. The interior isn’t so detailed but whether that makes it worse or just less fussy is a matter of opinion.
After 10,000 miles I’ve had 1 minor issue of a spurious warning. Nothing’s fallen off; nothing rattles.
My perception is that the F10 was a somehow more solidly built car but after a spirited drive across the Cotswolds last week in ‘sport’ I realise there’s nothing to persuade me to go back to the Germans.
As for a lack of excitement when entering the showroom; well I’m long past getting ‘excited’ by the prospect of a new car and find the simplicity of the Jaguar range a pleasant change to BMWs 1,2,3,4,5,6,7, series, coupes, saloons, GTs etc huge range of the same thing in different sizes.
Each to their own.
You’re right. Coming from the German marques, they’re still better cars I think. But I’ve been spoilt by probably the best exec saloon Jaguar have made to date in terms of spot on looks, handling, and now a lovely V8. The new XF is a better handling car, but I buy primarily on looks first, and it’s a letdown for me compared to what I’m driving now. But still better than the Germans. My experience is different.
When looking for a replacement for my 4yo F10 530d I had such a poor experience with BMW, trying to buy a 540i G30, that I drifted into the local Jaguar dealer.
My experience there was fine, test drives that weren’t available at BMW were at Jaguar.
The biggest surprise was that the XF I tried was in rode and handled so much better than the F10 or the G30 520d that I later did manage to drive.
I’ve driven a couple of G30s since but that’s just confirmed my opinion that the XF is better dynamically. The interior isn’t so detailed but whether that makes it worse or just less fussy is a matter of opinion.
After 10,000 miles I’ve had 1 minor issue of a spurious warning. Nothing’s fallen off; nothing rattles.
My perception is that the F10 was a somehow more solidly built car but after a spirited drive across the Cotswolds last week in ‘sport’ I realise there’s nothing to persuade me to go back to the Germans.
As for a lack of excitement when entering the showroom; well I’m long past getting ‘excited’ by the prospect of a new car and find the simplicity of the Jaguar range a pleasant change to BMWs 1,2,3,4,5,6,7, series, coupes, saloons, GTs etc huge range of the same thing in different sizes.
Each to their own.
Aside the crap Jag interiors and now the crap engine choices on the non-R/SVR cars, they are quite decent cars. My gripe is that Jag are charging bonkers money for an average product.
I would like to buy a new high end Jag, but with poor residuals and no support/incentives, I simply won’t part with my cash.
On a PCP it is currently cheaper to buy a £110k RRS SVR than a £75k F-Pace SVR?!!
I would like the Jag, but instead will opt for a new Macan Turbo for the same money.....
I would like to buy a new high end Jag, but with poor residuals and no support/incentives, I simply won’t part with my cash.
On a PCP it is currently cheaper to buy a £110k RRS SVR than a £75k F-Pace SVR?!!
I would like the Jag, but instead will opt for a new Macan Turbo for the same money.....
Edited by Triple7 on Thursday 4th October 01:23
TTmonkey said:
Keep seeing lovelylooking well specked F-paces.....
Borked on the side of the road awaiting recovery.....
That would do my head in.
Really? I rarely see cars of any make “Borked on the side of the road awaiting recovery.....” and have never seen any model of Jaguar to the best of my recall. Borked on the side of the road awaiting recovery.....
That would do my head in.
Given that Jaguar are regularly beating the Germans in reliability surveys now, I doubt your experience is representative.
From my perspective, I am an old-school Jaguar enthusiast. I have owned quite a few, from a V12 E Type, through an S-Type, two X350 XJR's several X100 XK's and XKR's and an X150 XKR. A few years ago, I had to choose between an XF-S 3.0D and a BMW 640d Gran Coupe. I went with the BMW. Why was that? I am sure that the Jag would have been the more agile - the 640d GC does not handle unless you specify the adaptive suspension at £2500 though I didn't realise that at the time. The BMW felt more robust, better quality, particularly the leather, higher end, and the twin turbo 3.0 straight six diesel was superb.
I didn't regret the choice because I had friends who bought 3.0d XF's and had a lot of trouble with the DPF which was never an issue on the BMW. I subsequently changed it for a 5 series, which is a naturally much better handling car.
We have an F-Pace 2.0d AWD in the family - it has been excellent and given the choice I would have one of those over an X5, however I don't fantasize about SUV's. I have never taken to the new XJ which would otherwise have been my natural choice. The F Type is good looking and nice to drive, but the problems, mentioned above, just rule it out of contention.
I do not personally think that the build quality matches BMW or Porsche, whatever the reliability figures say. Just look underneath.
They are doing something wrong, its just a question of what that is.
I didn't regret the choice because I had friends who bought 3.0d XF's and had a lot of trouble with the DPF which was never an issue on the BMW. I subsequently changed it for a 5 series, which is a naturally much better handling car.
We have an F-Pace 2.0d AWD in the family - it has been excellent and given the choice I would have one of those over an X5, however I don't fantasize about SUV's. I have never taken to the new XJ which would otherwise have been my natural choice. The F Type is good looking and nice to drive, but the problems, mentioned above, just rule it out of contention.
I do not personally think that the build quality matches BMW or Porsche, whatever the reliability figures say. Just look underneath.
They are doing something wrong, its just a question of what that is.
cardigankid said:
My own view FWIW is that Ian Callum has led them up a blind alley, and the product range is wrong.
Ian Callum is "only" the design director, he won't be deciding on the product range or powertrain strategy etc. He's not (solely) responsible for most of the issues in your initial post.For my 2p's worth, I do feel a bit disappointed that Jaguar seem to have left much of their "special" cars behind and focused on mass-market models but if I was in the market for a compact saloon or an SUV I'd rather have one of theirs than most of the German alternatives. Part of that is probably because I live in a place where almost everyone drives some German thing or other.
Jaguar have to keep up with the times, it's that simple and obviously not everyone likes the direction they're taking.
Theoretically an electric drivetrain is perfectly suited to Jaguar. With the exception of their competition (and derived) cars, their cars have always been quiet, elegant and luxurious. It's only in recent years that the styling has made every car look like it wants to eat your children (as per the German competition) and make all sorts of anti-social noises.
The Jaguars of old played to a culture of 'respect'. They were respectable cars for respectable people and the great unwashed aspired to that (either by dreaming of one day being successful enough to have a Jaguar), or by rising to the top of gangland culture where they could force 'respect' from others.
Today's society doesn't do respect, it only does fame - which is all about 'look at me'.
Harking back to a bygone age isn't going to sell many cars (or anything else) anymore, so forget the old adage of Grace, Space and Pace and look for something that people want to buy today.
The trouble is, if you're bothering to post on a thread about Jaguar, then you probably have a liking of what Jaguar were and have little or no interest in what they need to become to be successful.
I can look at a current BMW and to some extent ignore the odd styling quirk, the fussy interior and the 'image' because objectively, it's a good car and does exactly what you would expect of a BMW of any age.
Looking at a current Jaguar can only be a disappointment, because it cannot be what it used to be and still be an objectively good car today. The magic carpet ride of old wouldn't get it anywhere on a Nurburgring lap chart and that's all that matters to the masses these days.
The Jaguars of old played to a culture of 'respect'. They were respectable cars for respectable people and the great unwashed aspired to that (either by dreaming of one day being successful enough to have a Jaguar), or by rising to the top of gangland culture where they could force 'respect' from others.
Today's society doesn't do respect, it only does fame - which is all about 'look at me'.
Harking back to a bygone age isn't going to sell many cars (or anything else) anymore, so forget the old adage of Grace, Space and Pace and look for something that people want to buy today.
The trouble is, if you're bothering to post on a thread about Jaguar, then you probably have a liking of what Jaguar were and have little or no interest in what they need to become to be successful.
I can look at a current BMW and to some extent ignore the odd styling quirk, the fussy interior and the 'image' because objectively, it's a good car and does exactly what you would expect of a BMW of any age.
Looking at a current Jaguar can only be a disappointment, because it cannot be what it used to be and still be an objectively good car today. The magic carpet ride of old wouldn't get it anywhere on a Nurburgring lap chart and that's all that matters to the masses these days.
Jaguar need to get more people behind the wheel. The minute I tested the XF against the 5 series and E Class it was a wow moment, the XF felt so alive and nimble on the A and B roads but settled to a waffty cruiser on the motorway and this was for a standard suspension r-sport on 20" wheels, the steering is also nicely weighted and gives great feedback. The Germans felt so so dull and numb in compared to the XF.
The tech however is way behind other car manufacturers, it takes ages to boot up, I specced the top Nav with the LCD Dials and 825w sound but it feels a good few years behind the HK and Nav Pro system I had in my 2015 F10. The build quality is also poor, and the interior trim marks very easy.
To me the drive is important and that’s why I have the XF, I really do love it as a car in a flawed gem kinda way. It looks great from the outside and has none of the stupid stick on ipad type nav screens. But to most buyers tech, badge, and good PCP/Lease deals win. If Jag could just improve the interior materials and sort out a more up to date nav system and finance it really would be winner. (all of this goes for the XE also)
The tech however is way behind other car manufacturers, it takes ages to boot up, I specced the top Nav with the LCD Dials and 825w sound but it feels a good few years behind the HK and Nav Pro system I had in my 2015 F10. The build quality is also poor, and the interior trim marks very easy.
To me the drive is important and that’s why I have the XF, I really do love it as a car in a flawed gem kinda way. It looks great from the outside and has none of the stupid stick on ipad type nav screens. But to most buyers tech, badge, and good PCP/Lease deals win. If Jag could just improve the interior materials and sort out a more up to date nav system and finance it really would be winner. (all of this goes for the XE also)
Edited by stumpage on Thursday 4th October 14:35
stumpage said:
Jaguar need to get more people behind the wheel. The minute I tested the XF against the 5 series and E Class it was a wow moment, the XF felt so alive and nimble on the A and B roads but settled to a waffty cruiser on the motorway and this was for a standard suspension r-sport on 20" wheels, the steering is also nicely weighted and gives great feedback. The Germans felt so so dull and numb in compared to the XF.
The tech however is way behind other car manufacturers, it takes ages to boot up, I specced the top Nav with the LCD Dials and 825w sound but it feels a good few years behind the HK and Nav Pro system I had in my 2015 F10. The build quality is also poor, and the interior trim marks very easy.
To me the drive is important and that’s why I have the XF, I really do love it as a car in a flawed gem kinda way. It looks great from the outside and has none of the stupid stick on ipad type nav screens. But to most buyers tech, badge, and good PCP/Lease deals win. If Jag could just improve the interior materials and sort out a more up to date nav system and finance it really would be winner. (all of this goes for the XE also)
+1The tech however is way behind other car manufacturers, it takes ages to boot up, I specced the top Nav with the LCD Dials and 825w sound but it feels a good few years behind the HK and Nav Pro system I had in my 2015 F10. The build quality is also poor, and the interior trim marks very easy.
To me the drive is important and that’s why I have the XF, I really do love it as a car in a flawed gem kinda way. It looks great from the outside and has none of the stupid stick on ipad type nav screens. But to most buyers tech, badge, and good PCP/Lease deals win. If Jag could just improve the interior materials and sort out a more up to date nav system and finance it really would be winner. (all of this goes for the XE also)
Edited by anonymous-user on Thursday 4th October 14:35
XE and XF are now available with 0% APR with massive deposit contributions and enhanced GFV’s so it’s never been cheaper to finance a XE/XF
19MY has Incontrol Touch Pro as standard with a SIM card and Apple car play. Spec the Interactive Driver Display for £500 and you have just as much ICE as the Germans, albeit the ergonomics perhaps aren’t as good
Dynamically they are streets ahead of the Germans
19MY has Incontrol Touch Pro as standard with a SIM card and Apple car play. Spec the Interactive Driver Display for £500 and you have just as much ICE as the Germans, albeit the ergonomics perhaps aren’t as good
Dynamically they are streets ahead of the Germans
REALIST123 said:
TTmonkey said:
Keep seeing lovelylooking well specked F-paces.....
Borked on the side of the road awaiting recovery.....
That would do my head in.
Really? I rarely see cars of any make “Borked on the side of the road awaiting recovery.....” and have never seen any model of Jaguar to the best of my recall. Borked on the side of the road awaiting recovery.....
That would do my head in.
Given that Jaguar are regularly beating the Germans in reliability surveys now, I doubt your experience is representative.
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