Porsche V Jaguar
Discussion
I think the Porsche is more about clinical excellence. It's for people who take themselves very seriously.
The F-Type by contrast is a highly competent and well built car, but the way it is set up means it enjoys being driven like a hooligan. Think "intelligent but with a sense of humour".
I'm not saying F-Types fall apart and you need a sense of humour to own one. What I'm saying is that the F-Type suits people who are maybe a bit younger at heart.
The F-Type by contrast is a highly competent and well built car, but the way it is set up means it enjoys being driven like a hooligan. Think "intelligent but with a sense of humour".
I'm not saying F-Types fall apart and you need a sense of humour to own one. What I'm saying is that the F-Type suits people who are maybe a bit younger at heart.
I have been thinking about that very same choice.
IMHO
F Type V6S Convertible
Probably the better looking car by a margin
Got more bhp (375) than the Porsche but carrying an extra 250kg
Huge character
Great fun
Great view from driving seat
Needs Performance seats, black wheels and other goodies to look it's best
Slightly cramped
Price with goodies is about 75k which is a cool 20k too much
Interior lacks Porsche build quality
Severe lack of luggage space limits usability as a tourer
Porsche Boxster GTS
330bhp which is more than enough, and agile as can be
Not clinical at all, just very Porsche like and immensely competent in every department
Epically great fun
Acceptable view from driving seat
Spacious (unlike the first gen 986 which was too small for tall drivers)
First class seating and driving position
Industry leading build quality
Value for money - how is that possible against a UK product?
In 981 form particularly, loads of luggage space
To be totally blunt, if you are going to take on Porsche at sports cars, you need to be obsessive, to get it right in every department and keep getting it right. You can't just produce something very good looking, with some great qualities and some major compromises, and then massively overprice it in what seems to have been an act of sheer bravado. The Boxster in GTS format is better in almost every respect and wins hands down. F-Type against a GT3? Forget it.
At least, you have to say that the F Type is not yet at the top of its game, and maybe there is more to come. If it were 300kg lighter, based on a carbon fibre tub that gave the convertible the same rigidity as the coupe, had a redesign to improve interior space and luggage capacity, then you would have something seriously challenging. Bring on the S.2.
IMHO
F Type V6S Convertible
Probably the better looking car by a margin
Got more bhp (375) than the Porsche but carrying an extra 250kg
Huge character
Great fun
Great view from driving seat
Needs Performance seats, black wheels and other goodies to look it's best
Slightly cramped
Price with goodies is about 75k which is a cool 20k too much
Interior lacks Porsche build quality
Severe lack of luggage space limits usability as a tourer
Porsche Boxster GTS
330bhp which is more than enough, and agile as can be
Not clinical at all, just very Porsche like and immensely competent in every department
Epically great fun
Acceptable view from driving seat
Spacious (unlike the first gen 986 which was too small for tall drivers)
First class seating and driving position
Industry leading build quality
Value for money - how is that possible against a UK product?
In 981 form particularly, loads of luggage space
To be totally blunt, if you are going to take on Porsche at sports cars, you need to be obsessive, to get it right in every department and keep getting it right. You can't just produce something very good looking, with some great qualities and some major compromises, and then massively overprice it in what seems to have been an act of sheer bravado. The Boxster in GTS format is better in almost every respect and wins hands down. F-Type against a GT3? Forget it.
At least, you have to say that the F Type is not yet at the top of its game, and maybe there is more to come. If it were 300kg lighter, based on a carbon fibre tub that gave the convertible the same rigidity as the coupe, had a redesign to improve interior space and luggage capacity, then you would have something seriously challenging. Bring on the S.2.
Edited by cardigankid on Thursday 19th March 06:23
I have to admit I don't buy the interior build quality thing. I've been in Porsches. They're ok but really nothing special.
You'll struggle to make a list of things inside the Porsche interior which are objectively higher quality than the F-Type.
With all the hype about German cars I am singularly underwhelmed by the interiors of absolutely all of them. People just believe German cars are better built and if they keep repeating it enough it appears to remain true.
And sorry, but a Boxster IS clinically dull. The F-Type is already teetering on the edge of GTness compared to properly visceral sports cars. The F-Type is a smidgeon too competent to be truely engaging, but I understand that they're trying to appeal to people who like the image of sportscars but lack the courage to own one.
You'll struggle to make a list of things inside the Porsche interior which are objectively higher quality than the F-Type.
With all the hype about German cars I am singularly underwhelmed by the interiors of absolutely all of them. People just believe German cars are better built and if they keep repeating it enough it appears to remain true.
And sorry, but a Boxster IS clinically dull. The F-Type is already teetering on the edge of GTness compared to properly visceral sports cars. The F-Type is a smidgeon too competent to be truely engaging, but I understand that they're trying to appeal to people who like the image of sportscars but lack the courage to own one.
I think that is probably true of both cars - so far as the manufacturer can the element of risk is removed. The result is that both can be seen as bigger faster MX-5's. However, I don't want to die in a fireball, so I guess I can live with that aspect of either of them.
I think that you are wrong about Porsche though. I have always felt that you can tell what car you are in with your eyes shut, simply by inhaling. A Rolls Royce has, or used to have, a delicious smell which was part top quality new leather, wood, and ozone from the AC system. The smell of perfection. An Aston smells of quality leather. Lotusses and TVR's smell of GRP and glue, obviously. A Volkswagen has a strange aroma reminiscent of burnt rubber. A BMW smells as if you are in the Wealth Management Department of an exclusive bank. A Porsche is hard to describe but unmistakeable. it smells of engineering thinly sheathed in well processed leather. If you look after a car and don't over-use it the aroma is retained. A Jaguar used to have a sharp tang that seemed to be part leather and part the new plastic stitched seat protectors they used to come with back in the day. You get a hint of that today if you stick your head into a brand new Jag in a showroom, but it doesn't seem to last. I looked at a 14 plate XKR Dynamic, a demonstrator with 900 miles up. The new car scent had totally gone. That disappointed me. Porsches keep their smell.
They also just feel solid, well bolted together. That is a quality, and one which gives you confidence. personally I liked the Harm Lagaay interiors of the 996, because in addition to all that they had been DESIGNED, they had style. I grant you that the current standard issue Porsche interior is a bit conventional, but that is what people seem to want, and even that is part of its character. Then you get the dynamic, as if you are strapped to an engine. It is low, it is noisy, it is connected to the road. Though that is strongest in the old air cooled models beloved of the enthusiasts, these characteristics are still true of 991 and 981 models, and especially true of a car like the GTS. The gearbox is precise functional and sweet. You hold the Alcantara steering wheel and there is a purposefulness to it. Particularly with the antlered Porsche badge in the middle, with all its connotations. It oozes character, in fact.
I am a Jag man at heart. I own two. But I confess that I feel a bit let down by the F Type. Yes it looks great - 100% success. Yes it feels and sounds wonderful. But they have priced it to take over from the XK, and then some, not establish a new market segment. It's competing with the Boxster/Cayman but it is way more expensive. WTF? To get away with that it has to be perfect in every respect and outclass everything. I should be right in the target market for this. I would like a V8S or at least a V6S but it has to have performance seats and all the black bits. I am pushing the envelope at 50k. I can't afford it. Then I can't sit up straight in it, it is just too small. The next issue is the lack of luggage space. Two people cannot go away for a weekend in that car. It is a car you take for a day's blast then back home. Then you think, what could this have been if it wasn't a quarter of a ton too heavy? Then you come to build quality. It's good, but its not Porsche good, and it has to be. The seats in a 911 that has done 75,000 miles probably still look much as they did when they were new. The seats in the Jag look as if they have done 75,000 miles. Look at the ones on the AUC site, even after less than 10,000 miles some of them look seriously second hand, while the Porsche, and BMW for that matter look brand spanking new. There is a trick there which they haven't got to yet.
I expect Jags to deliver the thrills and experience of cars twice their price, not of cars half their price.The now superseded X150 XK was as good as a DB9, better in my view, more effortless and more chuckable, bar the quality of the seats of course. As well as giving you that refinement smoothness and power which they do uniquely well. That's is what Sir W Lyons pulled off. Maybe its achieved partly with weight, and weight is not what you need in a sports car. The F for all its qualities overpromises and under delivers in a number of key respects.
I think that you are wrong about Porsche though. I have always felt that you can tell what car you are in with your eyes shut, simply by inhaling. A Rolls Royce has, or used to have, a delicious smell which was part top quality new leather, wood, and ozone from the AC system. The smell of perfection. An Aston smells of quality leather. Lotusses and TVR's smell of GRP and glue, obviously. A Volkswagen has a strange aroma reminiscent of burnt rubber. A BMW smells as if you are in the Wealth Management Department of an exclusive bank. A Porsche is hard to describe but unmistakeable. it smells of engineering thinly sheathed in well processed leather. If you look after a car and don't over-use it the aroma is retained. A Jaguar used to have a sharp tang that seemed to be part leather and part the new plastic stitched seat protectors they used to come with back in the day. You get a hint of that today if you stick your head into a brand new Jag in a showroom, but it doesn't seem to last. I looked at a 14 plate XKR Dynamic, a demonstrator with 900 miles up. The new car scent had totally gone. That disappointed me. Porsches keep their smell.
They also just feel solid, well bolted together. That is a quality, and one which gives you confidence. personally I liked the Harm Lagaay interiors of the 996, because in addition to all that they had been DESIGNED, they had style. I grant you that the current standard issue Porsche interior is a bit conventional, but that is what people seem to want, and even that is part of its character. Then you get the dynamic, as if you are strapped to an engine. It is low, it is noisy, it is connected to the road. Though that is strongest in the old air cooled models beloved of the enthusiasts, these characteristics are still true of 991 and 981 models, and especially true of a car like the GTS. The gearbox is precise functional and sweet. You hold the Alcantara steering wheel and there is a purposefulness to it. Particularly with the antlered Porsche badge in the middle, with all its connotations. It oozes character, in fact.
I am a Jag man at heart. I own two. But I confess that I feel a bit let down by the F Type. Yes it looks great - 100% success. Yes it feels and sounds wonderful. But they have priced it to take over from the XK, and then some, not establish a new market segment. It's competing with the Boxster/Cayman but it is way more expensive. WTF? To get away with that it has to be perfect in every respect and outclass everything. I should be right in the target market for this. I would like a V8S or at least a V6S but it has to have performance seats and all the black bits. I am pushing the envelope at 50k. I can't afford it. Then I can't sit up straight in it, it is just too small. The next issue is the lack of luggage space. Two people cannot go away for a weekend in that car. It is a car you take for a day's blast then back home. Then you think, what could this have been if it wasn't a quarter of a ton too heavy? Then you come to build quality. It's good, but its not Porsche good, and it has to be. The seats in a 911 that has done 75,000 miles probably still look much as they did when they were new. The seats in the Jag look as if they have done 75,000 miles. Look at the ones on the AUC site, even after less than 10,000 miles some of them look seriously second hand, while the Porsche, and BMW for that matter look brand spanking new. There is a trick there which they haven't got to yet.
I expect Jags to deliver the thrills and experience of cars twice their price, not of cars half their price.The now superseded X150 XK was as good as a DB9, better in my view, more effortless and more chuckable, bar the quality of the seats of course. As well as giving you that refinement smoothness and power which they do uniquely well. That's is what Sir W Lyons pulled off. Maybe its achieved partly with weight, and weight is not what you need in a sports car. The F for all its qualities overpromises and under delivers in a number of key respects.
Edited by cardigankid on Friday 20th March 18:36
Quality is a hugely subjective issue that means different things to different people
Until recently I had a 986 Boxster S - searched high and low for one with the right history etc - had it 12 months and was both very expensive to maintain and not very reliable. Yes the switches worked with a nice clinical precision but build quality is very different to robustness and reliability
I know lots of people with modern Porsches and without exception all see them as expensive cars to run and cars that need to be looked after very carefully - just look at recent issues with bore scoring, IMS failures, latest GT3 issues etc on modern Porsches - not exactly paragons of reliability and dependability
I now have an S Type R - feels way more solid and robust than the Boxster ever did and has been completely trouble free whereas the Boxster cost me a small fortune with niggling little issues
Until recently I had a 986 Boxster S - searched high and low for one with the right history etc - had it 12 months and was both very expensive to maintain and not very reliable. Yes the switches worked with a nice clinical precision but build quality is very different to robustness and reliability
I know lots of people with modern Porsches and without exception all see them as expensive cars to run and cars that need to be looked after very carefully - just look at recent issues with bore scoring, IMS failures, latest GT3 issues etc on modern Porsches - not exactly paragons of reliability and dependability
I now have an S Type R - feels way more solid and robust than the Boxster ever did and has been completely trouble free whereas the Boxster cost me a small fortune with niggling little issues
I don't get Porsche or BMW cars never have. I cant argue about their quality or performance but I always think that something is missing.
Now the new F type is on another plane and it does have something that is difficult to explain.
I dont get the hype over the 911 and canthelp but agree that they have the laziest car design department in motoring.
just look at the way in which Jaguar have evolved its models since 1996 and then look at Porsche.
Now the new F type is on another plane and it does have something that is difficult to explain.
I dont get the hype over the 911 and canthelp but agree that they have the laziest car design department in motoring.
just look at the way in which Jaguar have evolved its models since 1996 and then look at Porsche.
I work with Lexus and on product launch events there is always stuff from the competitors to review /rate - BMW / Mercedes / Audi and increasingly Jaguar / Range Rover
I run these sessions, providing an overview of each of the competitors, strengths / weaknesses and provide delegates from all across Europe the chance to have a good look at them AND drive them
Consistently the feedback is this:
Audi - beautifully built but very dull / unresponsive to drive
BMW - increasingly poorly built, each new model taking a step back - lots of unfinished edges under the bonnet, hard / cheap interior plastics that do not line up etc but still very good to drive
Mercedes - solidly built but very uninspiring to look at and drive
Jaguar / Range Rover - they are different - they appeal to the heart and back it up with good driving dynamics
BUT at the end of the sessions very few people pick the Jaguar / Range Rover (Evoque excepted) - feedback is generally that they will break down and have very poor residuals
The Germans have the hold in the perception that there products are the best, even when people see for themselves that they are not they will still choose them as the perception is that they will be more reliable and hold their value better
I run these sessions, providing an overview of each of the competitors, strengths / weaknesses and provide delegates from all across Europe the chance to have a good look at them AND drive them
Consistently the feedback is this:
Audi - beautifully built but very dull / unresponsive to drive
BMW - increasingly poorly built, each new model taking a step back - lots of unfinished edges under the bonnet, hard / cheap interior plastics that do not line up etc but still very good to drive
Mercedes - solidly built but very uninspiring to look at and drive
Jaguar / Range Rover - they are different - they appeal to the heart and back it up with good driving dynamics
BUT at the end of the sessions very few people pick the Jaguar / Range Rover (Evoque excepted) - feedback is generally that they will break down and have very poor residuals
The Germans have the hold in the perception that there products are the best, even when people see for themselves that they are not they will still choose them as the perception is that they will be more reliable and hold their value better
jamieduff1981 said:
I think that just proves that the objective quality is irrelevant. People just make up any old nonsense to justify German preferences.
I was arguing against your comment that the Porsche is clinical. I suppose that you either get it or you don't, and you don't.I think that the finishes in the Jaguar stand up less well to wear than the Porsche, witness the seats, unless they are Recaros in which case they will be fine. All used cars have their issues. Bore scoring is talked about a lot on this site, but how many people has it actually happened to? I also think that corrosion starts off much faster in a Jag than in a Porsche.
Finally, how is it that I can buy a well specced new Boxster GTS for £58k but only a poverty spec F Type Convertible and that's with a discount? I can buy a basic Boxster, still a perfectly good piece of kit, for £38k. As I said, the F Type is a nice car, but it has serious flaws, and the first one is that it is priced out of the reach of the people most likely to want to buy it. If the F-type outclassed its rivals out of sight on every front, you might just get away with that, but it doesn't.
Edited by cardigankid on Friday 20th March 19:10
Andy665 said:
I now have an S Type R
Great car, particularly with that engine and the Recaro seats. I have a 3.0 V6 Sport manual, which after 93,000 miles is in bed with a blown cylinder head gasket which is going to cost a fortune to fix. Little bits like wheelarches, nuts and hidden seams seem to rust unless watched, cleaned and hity with Waxoyl or WD40 frequently. It has been great up to now, though I suspect my fuel and tax costs are the same as yours without anything like the performance.cardigankid said:
jamieduff1981 said:
I think that just proves that the objective quality is irrelevant. People just make up any old nonsense to justify German preferences.
I was arguing against your comment that the Porsche is clinical. I suppose that you either get it or you don't, and you don't.I think that the finishes in the Jaguar stand up less well to wear than the Porsche, witness the seats, unless they are Recaros in which case they will be fine. All used cars have their issues. Bore scoring is talked about a lot on this site, but how many people has it actually happened to? I also think that corrosion starts off much faster in a Jag than in a Porsche.
Finally, how is it that I can buy a well specced new Boxster GTS for £58k but only a poverty spec F Type Convertible and that's with a discount? I can buy a basic Boxster, still a perfectly good piece of kit, for £38k. As I said, the F Type is a nice car, but it has serious flaws, and the first one is that it is priced out of the reach of the people most likely to buy it. if the F-type outclassed its rivals on every front, you could just about see that, but it doesn't.
I'm not going to claim the German stuff is inferior objectively because it isn't. I happen to hate German styling but that is subjective. Equally though anyone who claims German interiors are objectively better than Jag or Range Rover interiors is out on a limb because there's nothing objectively different.
johnxjsc1985 said:
I don't get Porsche or BMW cars never have. I cant argue about their quality or performance but I always think that something is missing.
Now the new F type is on another plane and it does have something that is difficult to explain.
I don't get the hype over the 911 and cant help but agree that they have the laziest car design department in motoring.
just look at the way in which Jaguar have evolved its models since 1996 and then look at Porsche.
Why fix something which isn't broke? What they are doing is precisely what Jaguar always used to be praised for, which is progressive design development. Now they are breaking new ground and doing well, though I still don't get the XJ. Ian Callum talked about poise but I don't see it. Sometime innovation works - like the XF and XE - sometimes it doesn't.Now the new F type is on another plane and it does have something that is difficult to explain.
I don't get the hype over the 911 and cant help but agree that they have the laziest car design department in motoring.
just look at the way in which Jaguar have evolved its models since 1996 and then look at Porsche.
A 911 has a particular character which you either like or you don't.
cardigankid said:
The first one is that it is priced out of the reach of the people most likely to buy it. if the F-type outclassed its rivals on every front, you could just about see that, but it doesn't.
Or it could be argued that its priced at what the market will tolerate - if the F-Type production line is running to capacity then its great news for Jaguar and they have the pricing right - if its selling well below expectations then they have the pricing wrong.People do not buy with their head all of the time - the F-Type sells on many fronts, probably its trump card is its looks
I ha my Alfa GTV V6 at the same time as my Boxster S - if you pumped all of the quantifiable things in to a spreadsheet the Boxster would win hands down every time - yet I always had a look over my shoulder when I'd finished a trip in the Alfa, never in the Porsche - the Alfa got in to my heart whilst the Porsche - I respected it, no more no less
Edited by Andy665 on Friday 20th March 18:54
cardigankid said:
Finally, how is it that I can buy a well specced new Boxster GTS for £58k but only a poverty spec F Type Convertible and that's with a discount? I can buy a basic Boxster, still a perfectly good piece of kit, for £38k. As I said, the F Type is a nice car, but it has serious flaws, and the first one is that it is priced out of the reach of the people most likely to buy it. if the F-type outclassed its rivals on every front, you could just about see that, but it doesn't.
I think the problem here that you had set your heart on the F type being pitched as a Boxster rival while Jaguar felt it a better business plan to aim the F Type as a 911 competitor. They've said all along that the 911 was their target for comparison. Gassing Station | Jaguar | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff